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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread
- Thread starter NonSpecificGuy
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chocolatejr9
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After Poochy got added to MKT, I'm starting to wonder if Foreman Spike has a chance during a hypothetical Wrecking Crew Tour...
really? well movie Mario is getting added to kart
Lenidem
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It is hard to tell who exactly is a "nobody", but I really agree with that. I think fighters should be important characters.
roxas, xemnas, namine
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I personally disagree. “Nobodies” have just as much merit as the mega stars as playable characters.
Lenidem
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Then where does the "merit" come from?
CapitaineCrash
Smash Champion
I could see the movie helping Kamek to some extent, he's already a very intersting character imo and could have a really fun magic based moveset, he just doesn't have the same push as other Mario characters because he doesn't appear as consistently as other Mario characters. The fact that he was never playable in a Kart games aside from Tour and very rarely playable in sports games is kind of baffling to me. His most consistent roles was in the Mario & Luigi subseries, but with Alphadream death those stopped. That being said, if the movie popularity means that Nintendo started use more Kamek and bring him back in a mainline game too, I think he could have a fairly big push.
Toad is kind of in a weird situation. The thing is that, he doesn't need a push like Kamek, he already appear in pretty much every Mario games. The biggest hurdle Toad has was always moveset potential, because he never do anything realy unique in game he appears (besides Captain Toad). And the movie isn't really going to change that, unless they make Toad playable and make his moveset revolve around the movie for some reason.
Wonder Smash
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Hmm...seems like the next console is going to be backwards compatibility.
We'll be keeping Ultimate for a LONG time, folks!
We'll be keeping Ultimate for a LONG time, folks!
Capybara Gaming
Just Vibing
Looks like someone got it memorized.
Gengar84
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The main question for me is whether I’ll be able transfer all my mods to the Switch 2 if it really is backwards compatible.
I’ve recently been kind of obsessed with watching videos about all the recent advancements in AI. I’m curious if any of this will have an impact on the Switch 2 or next Smash. It seems potentially more useful in RPG’s but I could see it being used for things like an easy to use better Stage Builder or something like that. If nothing else, it would make building custom models for mods a lot easier. Maybe we can finally have a true character creator in addition to the Miis.
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Ivander
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I certainly wouldn't be surprised. Even if it didn't really affect Smash, I can't see it not having an effect on other Mario titles, like Mario Kart, Mario Sports, etc.
A Stage Builder where the stage is completely built from AI...
Well, I can't say I'm not morbidly curious. That said, AI should not be in control of character creator. I think it'd be more simple and better to just add all of the Miitopia Mii Maker features to Mii Maker/Mii Fighter. As for the Switch 2, I don't see AI having a major impact just yet. That said, in terms of some subjects like voice copying or whatnot, I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo wanted to set in stone Charles Martinet's voice for Mario, with how iconic his voice for Mario is.
chocolatejr9
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Let's hope that includes stuff like NSO...
Sounds like the Mario maker stage
Gengar84
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Yeah, that’s kind of what I’m thinking too. Switch 2 might be a bit too soon to fully take advantage of all the new technology. It’s crazy to think about just how different the PS6 or next X-Box could be if they go all in and embrace AI.
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Ivander
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Maybe. I'm not entirely sure how the Mario Maker works. Don't know whether it is truly randomized or if it has a lot of set options it can choose from.
Like AI making stages for you to play or fight on is definitely an interesting concept, but I would say that it should be more an additional feature rather than a main feature. Like how each stage has a Main Stage, a Battlefield Stage and an Omega Stage, there could be a "Disorder" Stage selection where it takes the assets from the stage and creates a new stage to fight on. But the reason it's not the default pick is because I doubt people want the chance of picking a stage and it becomes Great Cave Offensive or Palutena's Temple being the default choice instead of an option.
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Honestly I think writing Takamaru off as a "nobody" is a fairly reductionist and arguably anglocentric way of thinking. It removes a lot of important context from the time.
Choosing to just stop at "this was a Japan-only release that never saw a sequel" ignores the likely causes for both of those things. Namely, the latter was likely because of the former. By the time the GameBoy and SNES rolled around, Nintendo was firmly an international business, and likely saw no need to make a sequel to a game that didn't release internationally. So that, in turn, begs the question of why it didn't release internationally.
There are a lot of reasons as to why a game may not have received an international release. One could be quality. This was famously the reason the US never got Disaster: Day of Crisis. That, however, doesn't apply to The Mysterious Murasame Castle, as it's well regarded as a fun, but very challenging, game. So perhaps the difficulty itself was the issue? After all, The Lost Levels, the original Super Mario Bros. 2, did not initially release in the west due to its difficulty. However, this is more so a specific, isolated case: Mario was their flagship brand, and a sudden difficulty spike could equate to brand suicide. The Mysterious Murasame Castle wouldn't have that issue, as it was its own IP. Games that needed heavy amounts of translation, such as Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon & the Blade of Light, or Shin Onigashima, are such cases...but The Mysterious Murasame Castle didn't have a lot of in-game text to translate. Most of the text was just menu flavoring.
The last major reason is, sadly, likely what kept The Mysterious Murasame Castle from releasing worldwide: censorship. This was what, infamously, kept Devil World from releasing internationally: the presence of Bibles and The Literal Devil from The Bible being depicted in such a way where they couldn't simply be renamed was a no-go, as Nintendo of America had a very strict "No Religion" policy, which extended to even mere mentions of churches or demons. This is why Triforce of the Gods was renamed to A Link to the Past, and why Castlevania's Holy Water and Cross weapons were originally named the Fire Bomb and Boomerang, respectively, in western manuals.
While not exactly "censorship," another common occurrence was having the localization team remove references to Japanese things the west would be unfamiliar with. Sometimes this led to entire games not making it overseas, when calling an onigiri a jelly donut wouldn't be enough. A developer interview during the release period of the fifth game in The Legendary Starfy franchise, and the only one of the games to get a western release, saw the confirmation of the long-suspected fact that, prior to the fifth game, Nintendo deemed the series "too Japanese" to release overseas. Keep in mind, this is a series of child friendly platformers in the vein of Kirby or Mario, just with the presence of more Japanese styled comedy archetypes for the story cutscenes. It's perfectly reasonable to enjoy these games even with these things potentially going over one's head, as it then just seems like a quirky bit of comedy, but even this was deemed too much for the time. And Starfy was a franchise of the 2000s, not the 80s or 90s.
It's likely a combination of these two issues that ensured The Mysterious Murasame Castle didn't see a western release. The latter is far easier to discuss, so we'll start there. The game is inherently Japanese. Set in the Edo period, it's filled to the brim with samurai, ninjas, the shogunate, daimyōs, and the like, wielding katanas, shuriken, kunai, and fukiya. It also delves into the mythological side of ancient Japan, with yōkai such as the tanuki and tengu being present. This may have been a Starfy situation where it was simply deemed too much to localize.
But then we move on to legitimate censorship issues, namely due to violence. The first and most obvious bit is, funny enough, the final stretch of the game: approaching Murasame Castle itself. It's a stark contrast to the rest of the game. The music is more somber and simultaneously urgent. The world is pitch black. And then, of course, there's the elephant in the room. Takamaru is crossing a desolate wasteland with rivers flowing with blood, and piles of human skulls are littering the area. It's meant to demonstrate just how nightmarish Murasame is, but the censors may have deemed it too much. Yeah, you could write the rivers of blood off as lava, I suppose, but the mountains of skulls aren't as easy to explain away.
But there's another aspect of the "violence" factor that also likely worked against the game: good old 1980s western conservatism and all the racism and xenophobia that came with it. Thanks, Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher.
For those who don't know, the popularity of eastern martial arts movies and samurai films in the 1980s triggered a moral panic among conservatives, particularly in the UK, but also the US to a degree. With their popularity came backlash that their gratuitous violence was "corrupting the youth," often accompanied by not-so-veiled racist remarks toward basically the entirety of Asia. Remember, kids, guns and swords are fine, but shuriken are for those dirty savages trying to poison the youth! ...It was very transparent, as is the case with most moral panics. But the transparency on the part of the right still made its way into legislation and the like, and greatly impacted pop culture as well. Infamously, when the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon came to the UK, it was redubbed as Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles. "Ninja" was straight up a banned word as far as television censors were concerned, and soon Michelangelo's nunchuks were on the cutting board as well.
Nintendo, at this time, was very much branded as a family friendly company in the west. It's entirely possible that the thought of importing a game packing at least five ninjas and three samurai per square inch, and whose main character unabashedly wields a katana and shuriken, was unthinkable at the time. It could potentially lead to bad press. It sucks, but it's entirely possible this was a tactical move. Either way, let's be glad Ninja Gaiden somehow escaped unscathed. It did release a good deal later than The Mysterious Murasame Castle, after all.
But even considering all of the unfortunate circumstances that prevented the game from making it to the west, Takamaru is absolutely not a nobody. The Mysterious Murasame Castle isn't like FlingSmash, where it came and went with a wet fart and whose only cultural significance at this point is the occasional Scott the Woz bit. The game is given a good deal of reverence by Nintendo themselves.
The game made cameos in Pikmin 2 and WarioWare DIY. Samurai Warriors 3 had an entire sub mode dedicated to the game for its Nintendo release, featuring Takamaru as a playable character. Takamaru is a major character in Captain Rainbow. Nintendoland, a Wii U launch title that was given top billing, had a game dedicated to Takamaru and The Mysterious Murasame Castle, Takamaru's Ninja Castle, putting it in league with games like Mario, Donkey Kong, Zelda, Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Metroid, and F-Zero. His Assist Trophy confirmation in Smash 4 was given a good bit of prominence on Miiverse. And most recently, despite Super Mario Maker 2 eliminating most of the cameos present in the first game, Takamaru still cameos here for the ninja pop-up sound effect, making him one of the incredibly few non-Mario characters to appear in the game.
And finally, I say this as someone who supports more than a few "Nobodies" for Smash. Characters with no real prominence these days. Guys who came and went. People who would be in the same tier as Zip from FlingSmash. The Henry Flemings. The Muddy Moles. The Eddys. The Hakkuns.
So I can say without a single doubt that Takamaru is not one of those characters. You don't get to be as prominent in the speculation scene as Takamaru is by being one of those, outside of an organized grassroots movement taking off without precedent (ie, Geno). Takamaru didn't have that. People just thought he was cool and hopped aboard. And clearly, some folks at Nintendo agree. And why wouldn't people be on board? He's a samurai. He can launch several projectiles in different patterns based on the movement of shogi pieces. He can throw fire balls. He can turn invisible. He can call down lightning. He's from the Edo period but successfully killed a futuristic hostile alien, blowing it up while Ode to Joy played in the background.
Takamaru isn't a Nobody. He's a Somebody of whom we were tragically deprived for far too long.
Choosing to just stop at "this was a Japan-only release that never saw a sequel" ignores the likely causes for both of those things. Namely, the latter was likely because of the former. By the time the GameBoy and SNES rolled around, Nintendo was firmly an international business, and likely saw no need to make a sequel to a game that didn't release internationally. So that, in turn, begs the question of why it didn't release internationally.
There are a lot of reasons as to why a game may not have received an international release. One could be quality. This was famously the reason the US never got Disaster: Day of Crisis. That, however, doesn't apply to The Mysterious Murasame Castle, as it's well regarded as a fun, but very challenging, game. So perhaps the difficulty itself was the issue? After all, The Lost Levels, the original Super Mario Bros. 2, did not initially release in the west due to its difficulty. However, this is more so a specific, isolated case: Mario was their flagship brand, and a sudden difficulty spike could equate to brand suicide. The Mysterious Murasame Castle wouldn't have that issue, as it was its own IP. Games that needed heavy amounts of translation, such as Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon & the Blade of Light, or Shin Onigashima, are such cases...but The Mysterious Murasame Castle didn't have a lot of in-game text to translate. Most of the text was just menu flavoring.
The last major reason is, sadly, likely what kept The Mysterious Murasame Castle from releasing worldwide: censorship. This was what, infamously, kept Devil World from releasing internationally: the presence of Bibles and The Literal Devil from The Bible being depicted in such a way where they couldn't simply be renamed was a no-go, as Nintendo of America had a very strict "No Religion" policy, which extended to even mere mentions of churches or demons. This is why Triforce of the Gods was renamed to A Link to the Past, and why Castlevania's Holy Water and Cross weapons were originally named the Fire Bomb and Boomerang, respectively, in western manuals.
While not exactly "censorship," another common occurrence was having the localization team remove references to Japanese things the west would be unfamiliar with. Sometimes this led to entire games not making it overseas, when calling an onigiri a jelly donut wouldn't be enough. A developer interview during the release period of the fifth game in The Legendary Starfy franchise, and the only one of the games to get a western release, saw the confirmation of the long-suspected fact that, prior to the fifth game, Nintendo deemed the series "too Japanese" to release overseas. Keep in mind, this is a series of child friendly platformers in the vein of Kirby or Mario, just with the presence of more Japanese styled comedy archetypes for the story cutscenes. It's perfectly reasonable to enjoy these games even with these things potentially going over one's head, as it then just seems like a quirky bit of comedy, but even this was deemed too much for the time. And Starfy was a franchise of the 2000s, not the 80s or 90s.
It's likely a combination of these two issues that ensured The Mysterious Murasame Castle didn't see a western release. The latter is far easier to discuss, so we'll start there. The game is inherently Japanese. Set in the Edo period, it's filled to the brim with samurai, ninjas, the shogunate, daimyōs, and the like, wielding katanas, shuriken, kunai, and fukiya. It also delves into the mythological side of ancient Japan, with yōkai such as the tanuki and tengu being present. This may have been a Starfy situation where it was simply deemed too much to localize.
But then we move on to legitimate censorship issues, namely due to violence. The first and most obvious bit is, funny enough, the final stretch of the game: approaching Murasame Castle itself. It's a stark contrast to the rest of the game. The music is more somber and simultaneously urgent. The world is pitch black. And then, of course, there's the elephant in the room. Takamaru is crossing a desolate wasteland with rivers flowing with blood, and piles of human skulls are littering the area. It's meant to demonstrate just how nightmarish Murasame is, but the censors may have deemed it too much. Yeah, you could write the rivers of blood off as lava, I suppose, but the mountains of skulls aren't as easy to explain away.
But there's another aspect of the "violence" factor that also likely worked against the game: good old 1980s western conservatism and all the racism and xenophobia that came with it. Thanks, Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher.
For those who don't know, the popularity of eastern martial arts movies and samurai films in the 1980s triggered a moral panic among conservatives, particularly in the UK, but also the US to a degree. With their popularity came backlash that their gratuitous violence was "corrupting the youth," often accompanied by not-so-veiled racist remarks toward basically the entirety of Asia. Remember, kids, guns and swords are fine, but shuriken are for those dirty savages trying to poison the youth! ...It was very transparent, as is the case with most moral panics. But the transparency on the part of the right still made its way into legislation and the like, and greatly impacted pop culture as well. Infamously, when the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon came to the UK, it was redubbed as Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles. "Ninja" was straight up a banned word as far as television censors were concerned, and soon Michelangelo's nunchuks were on the cutting board as well.
Nintendo, at this time, was very much branded as a family friendly company in the west. It's entirely possible that the thought of importing a game packing at least five ninjas and three samurai per square inch, and whose main character unabashedly wields a katana and shuriken, was unthinkable at the time. It could potentially lead to bad press. It sucks, but it's entirely possible this was a tactical move. Either way, let's be glad Ninja Gaiden somehow escaped unscathed. It did release a good deal later than The Mysterious Murasame Castle, after all.
But even considering all of the unfortunate circumstances that prevented the game from making it to the west, Takamaru is absolutely not a nobody. The Mysterious Murasame Castle isn't like FlingSmash, where it came and went with a wet fart and whose only cultural significance at this point is the occasional Scott the Woz bit. The game is given a good deal of reverence by Nintendo themselves.
The game made cameos in Pikmin 2 and WarioWare DIY. Samurai Warriors 3 had an entire sub mode dedicated to the game for its Nintendo release, featuring Takamaru as a playable character. Takamaru is a major character in Captain Rainbow. Nintendoland, a Wii U launch title that was given top billing, had a game dedicated to Takamaru and The Mysterious Murasame Castle, Takamaru's Ninja Castle, putting it in league with games like Mario, Donkey Kong, Zelda, Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Metroid, and F-Zero. His Assist Trophy confirmation in Smash 4 was given a good bit of prominence on Miiverse. And most recently, despite Super Mario Maker 2 eliminating most of the cameos present in the first game, Takamaru still cameos here for the ninja pop-up sound effect, making him one of the incredibly few non-Mario characters to appear in the game.
And finally, I say this as someone who supports more than a few "Nobodies" for Smash. Characters with no real prominence these days. Guys who came and went. People who would be in the same tier as Zip from FlingSmash. The Henry Flemings. The Muddy Moles. The Eddys. The Hakkuns.
So I can say without a single doubt that Takamaru is not one of those characters. You don't get to be as prominent in the speculation scene as Takamaru is by being one of those, outside of an organized grassroots movement taking off without precedent (ie, Geno). Takamaru didn't have that. People just thought he was cool and hopped aboard. And clearly, some folks at Nintendo agree. And why wouldn't people be on board? He's a samurai. He can launch several projectiles in different patterns based on the movement of shogi pieces. He can throw fire balls. He can turn invisible. He can call down lightning. He's from the Edo period but successfully killed a futuristic hostile alien, blowing it up while Ode to Joy played in the background.
Takamaru isn't a Nobody. He's a Somebody of whom we were tragically deprived for far too long.
Gengar84
Smash Hero
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I was more thinking along the lines of greatly improved visuals and ease of use than a randomly generated stage layout. For example, you could just type something like “icy cave background with crystals on the ground and eerie fog” and it would generate a cool looking background on par with the actual stages in the game. You could do the same for the actual platforms you fight on. Basically, as long as you can describe what you want it to look like, it can do a lot of the busy work for you and make everything look a lot better than Ultimate’s.
Laniv
Smash Champion
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Please God let this be the time of Toad sweep. The more people talking about my dude the better
I do prefer the regular ol' Toad, but I'd be remiss if I didn't say CAPTAIN TOAD!!!!!!!!
by the way, if Toadette were to get in, would you prefer an alt or as an echo?
Gengar84
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Or my favorite toad of all
BATTLE TOAD!!!!!
Might as well throw in Slippy Toad, Politoed, and Seismitoad while we’re at it.
Seriously though, I feel like you could probably have Toad, Toadette, Captain Toad, and Toadsworth all as alts like Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings. The moveset could just pull from all of the various Toad characters.
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Ivander
Smash Legend
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CAPTAIN TOAD! BATTLE TOAD! SLIPPY TOAD! SEISMITOAD! Are there any other Toads I should know about?!
Gengar84
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Toad Man’s awesome. I’ll gladly take some Robot Masters or Mavericks in Smash. Pharaoh Man’s my favorite.CAPTAIN TOAD! BATTLE TOAD! SLIPPY TOAD! SEISMITOAD! Are there any other Toads I should know about?!
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i'd prefer her as an echo myself.
Capybara Gaming
Just Vibing
Don't forget that with a powerup he can actually run on water too. It'd be niche at best in Smash but I actually think they'd add it.
And yeah, I've been saying that with all those cameos that it's honestly weird he wasn't top priority for retro picks in Smash 4. I get why Duck Hunt got in, but I still don't think it would've been unreasonable to get both. Every previous Smash title at that point past 64 had introduced 2 retro fighters. Honestly would've rather had him than some of the fighters who did get included in 4.
Will
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had to ftfy, we all know this is what you mean
no I literally meant Mario looking as he does in the movie
HyperSomari64
Smash Master
Guts Man's butt should be a spirit.
Not many can punch MegaMan out of his own theme music power-up. Awesome, indeed.
(i wouldn't post the image because the mods will send me a warning)
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Although very, very exaggerated what I'm writing and definitely will never happen, but in case the new Super Smash Bros. game comes out and also has an Adventure Mode, I was thinking about the final boss there or at least in future Super Smash Bros. games make him have various abilities, be something between organic and mechanical (even at the cellular level), between magic and science, between living and dead (you're ignoring that), between corporeal and incorporeal (also ignore it), also be made of various materials (rock, metal, etc.), to have psychic powers, to control the elements of nature as well as light and darkness and to be a threat to space-time.
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Y'know, that dosn't actually doesn't sound too unreasonable, so long as you made that concept into something comprehensible.
HyperSomari64
Smash Master
It would be kinda weird, even if the Sessions' guys aren't in the roster.
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Toad seems like the kind of character whose Smash requests could really blow up if he ever gets perceived as likely. Of course you can say that about almost any character but I think it is especially true for Toad, given his existing non-Smash presence and fanbase along with mainstream appeal. In Toad's case specifically, a lot of Smash fans are kind of stuck in thinking of Toad the way Sakurai apparently has so far: as a supporting character who can be adequately represented as part of another's moveset. It is just one case of fans basically stringing themselves along with whatever Sakurai does; because Sakurai holds a lot of respect among fans it can sometimes be difficult to sell everybody on an idea that goes against what he has traditionally done.
his requests will blow up. when my mass hypnosis machine is finished
I think most people willing to enter into morally sketchy grounds in order to push their favorite Smash candidate would simply make a fake leak or something...
chocolatejr9
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Yeah, well the last time that happened, we got the Grinch leak, so I can't fault anybody for wanting to avoid that...
I mean, ideally nobody goes into the morally sketchy grounds and we don't get misdirected/spoiled by leaks, fake or real.
Edit: or get subjected to hypnosis or whatever else crazy Smash fans would cook up...
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Is there anything in what I wrote that is not comprehensible?
Last edited:
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It's referring to how the overall movesets and programming works in practice.
No matter how cool a moveset works in theory, in practice it might not turn out as well as one hoped and has to sometimes be refined.
It's just hard to word this highly well while using that word. They aren't saying your wording itself is bad at all.
MasterCheef
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