Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[SPEN18]

I don't find it strange or problematic that FE has no villain rep. The series has like 20 characters who could feasibly be called a "main protagonist," and they're more diverse than many people give them credit for.

 

[Gengar84]

I’ll take as many villains as I can get. There’s just something cool about making matchups of heroes vs villains that we lose out on with a cast of mostly heroes. It’s nice to have a rival for a character where there is one available that would be fun. Smash is also one of the only possibilities of finally being able to control some of these characters. While Fire Emblem has plenty of lords to choose from for characters, I personally find it a bit boring to default to the newest lord as the default Smash rep. The lords are rarely if ever the most interesting character in the game in my opinion, similar to starters with Pokémon.

 

[fogbadge]

I just want to see as many villains as we can. There’s just something cool about making matchups of heroes vs villains that we lose out on with a cast of mostly heroes. It’s nice to have a rival for a character where there is one available that would be fun. Smash is also one of the only possibilities of finally being able to control some of these characters. While Fire Emblem has plenty of lords to choose from for characters, I personally find it a bit boring to default to the newest lord as the default Smash rep. The lords are rarely if ever the most interesting character in the game in my opinion, similar to starters with Pokémon.

perhaps you should make a smash bros dissidia creation thread? you know a game where every hero has the arch enemy

 

[Gengar84]

perhaps you should make a smash bros dissidia creation thread? you know a game where every hero has the arch enemy

That’s not a bad idea but I don’t think I’m active enough to upkeep a big thread like that. There’s also tons of villains I’d love to see that their main protagonist either isn’t in Smash or isn’t as recognizable as the villain. Conversely, there are some characters in Smash that either don’t have a recognizable villain or even a villain at all so a full Dissidia style game where every hero had a villain rival would be tricky. I think I’d add some villains that are recognizable on their own without needing a hero and vice versa. Still, I’d try to make pairs wherever it made sense since that is a big part of why villains are so fun in Smash.

 

[fogbadge]

That’s not a bad idea but I don’t think I’m active enough to upkeep a big thread like that. There’s also tons of villains I’d love to see that their main protagonist either isn’t in Smash or isn’t as recognizable as the villain. Conversely, there are some characters in Smash that either don’t have a recognizable villain or even a villain at all so a full Dissidia style game would be tricky.

You don’t need every smash character

Though it would be funny if the villagers nemesis was a scorpion

 

[Gengar84]

You don’t need every smash character

Though it would be funny if the villagers nemesis was a scorpion

It could be fun make hero and villain pairs in Smash from completely different franchises. For example, if the game has a story mode focusing around a hero army vs a villain army, Diablo could play the villain of either Dante or Doom Slayer while Sarah Kerrigan could play the villain for Bill Rizer or as another rival for Samus. Fulgore could serve as the antagonist for Xenoblade. Other villains like Nightmare, Arthas, or Lu Bu could oppose the Fire Emblem cast without needing a FE villain specifically. One obvious pairing is that Magus could play as the villain for Dragon Quest. It doesn’t have to be those specifically, I’m just throwing out some ideas for fitting pairs. Possibilities like that are part of what makes huge crossover games like Smash so exciting to me since we’d never see most of these pairings otherwise.

 

[ceterisparibus]

Yea i'm going to concur i don't get the point of getting villains specifically for the sake of doing so - you get characters that are recognizable in their own right, not because of some weird quota. There's really little point in say, pointing out that FE villains are "needed" when the main protagonists are going to be vastly more popular and recognizable.
Stuff like bowser/sephiroth are chosen because they're well known, not because nintendo wants to backfill out some number.

 

[Gengar84]

Yea i'm going to concur i don't get the point of getting villains specifically for the sake of doing so - you get characters that are recognizable in their own right, not because of some weird quota. There's really little point in say, pointing out that FE villains are "needed" when the main protagonists are going to be vastly more popular and recognizable.
Stuff like bowser/sephiroth are chosen because they're well known, not because nintendo wants to backfill out some number.

My two biggest reasons for wanting more villains are that I just tend to like them more and that the roster just gets a bit boring and predictable with only main protagonists. I do agree that some franchises don’t really have a standout villain that would make sense as a Smash rep over other options but others I feel the villain is even more iconic than the hero. For example, Xenoblade is one of my favorite franchises ever but neither Dickson or Malos are anywhere near the top of my most wanted list. Although I would be really hyped for equally small antagonists like Jena Anderson so I’m not sure invalidates whatever point I was trying to make there lol.

Anyway, like I described earlier, it’s just fun to make matchups of heroes vs villains, even from different franchises. I just want Smash to be more than just a list of the most iconic protagonists in gaming and little else.

 

[ceterisparibus]

Tbh it seems rather limiting that you define protagonists as "boring and predictable" when there's plenty of games out there whose leads would be highly requested or desired.
There are plenty of dream crossovers possible just by including new entries and franchises, we're a long way from the need for a specific "hero vs villain" setup for it to be interesting.

 

[Gengar84]

Tbh it seems rather limiting that you define protagonists as "boring and predictable" when there's plenty of games out there whose leads would be highly requested or desired.
There are plenty of dream crossovers possible just by including new entries and franchises, we're a long way from the need for a specific "hero vs villain" setup for it to be interesting.

I didn’t mean to imply that all protagonists are boring and predictable, just that limiting the roster almost exclusively to main protagonists can get that way for me personally. It also makes speculation a bit less interesting for me. For example, rather than wondering who the next FE rep would be and talking about our favorites, it just defaults to whoever the newest lord is. Same goes for Pokémon reps and starters. This isn’t really exclusively needing more villain representation for me but that I’d like to see a bit more representation of characters other than just the main protagonist, whether they be villains or popular side characters.

That doesn’t mean I don’t want to see any more main protagonists at all. There are plenty of main protagonists I’d still be really hyped to see but I don’t want everything else to be passed over either. Heck, my most wanted characters that I advocate for here are the Battletoads, which are the main protagonists of their game. I also really want to see Bill Rizer, Alphen/Shionne, and a lot more. This is all just my personal opinion and I know everyone is different. There is definitely some excitement in hero vs hero matchups as well like Link vs Cloud or Samus vs Master Chief but they just don’t have quite the same impact for me.

While I’d obviously prefer to see all my favorite characters make it in, I realize that Smash isn’t made specifically to cater to my personal tastes and I’m fine with that. I’m generally very accepting and I can be happy for others even if I don’t like the character myself. I’m not really trying to make demands or claim I won’t like the game if I don’t get what I want. I’m just trying to share my personal opinions on what I’d like to see. Since my taste in characters tends to fall outside the general community, I tend to have a lot of disagreements with people but I always try to keep it civil and respect everyone’s opinion, not try to suggest that it can only be my way.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Call me crazy, but i blast my ass of laughter if Goku was the main villain of a future Smash's story mode.
While this is out-of-character, make him a Hero Antagonist or whatever.

 

[Stratos]

To me anyway, it would be kind of weird if a video game with a hero and a villain that if the game wasn't worth it but the villain would be interesting and put him in future games to face other protagonists.

 

[Gengar84]

To me anyway, it would be kind of weird if a video game with a hero and a villain that if the game wasn't worth it but the villain would be interesting and put him in future games to face other protagonists.

You could argue that Kazuya already fills that role. True he started out as a hero himself but he’s been portrayed as a villain more often. Heihachi was allegedly even the original choice before Kazuya was ultimately chosen. Fighting games seem to have a villain as the most iconic character more often than other genres. Fulgore and Nightmare are two other examples. Scorpion and Sub-Zero have each played the villain at one point though they are both protagonists these days. Beyond fighting games, Blizzard’s games, League of Legends, and Dynasty Warriors can also claim that the antagonist is arguably the most iconic character.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think that style fits what the original was going for and could be really visually impressive with today’s technology.

I don't want it to fit the original. I love SMRPG, but that game was hideous.

 

[Gengar84]

I don't want it to fit the original. I love SMRPG, but that game was hideous.

I remember as a kid thinking that it looked way better than Super Mario 64 and I questioned why I’d ever want an N64 if the graphics looked worse. Of course, that was before I played either game or fully understood the concept of pre rendered graphics. I still personally like the look of the pre-rendered SNES games but I can understand why others might not feel the same way. I was definitely disappointed with the graphics of the first Paper Mario and wished they’d have just kept the look of SMRPG. I guess everyone has their own opinion on what looks good to them. At least we’re in agreement that Guilty Gear and DBZFZ look amazing.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I never liked the "scanned 3d model" look of SMRPG or DKC. To me, those games just looked way worse than, say, Final Fantasy 6, Chrono Trigger, Super Mario World, or Yoshi's Island.

Look at this fugly thing!

 

[Gengar84]

I never liked the "scanned 3d model" look of SMRPG or DKC. To me, those games just looked way worse than, say, Final Fantasy 6, Chrono Trigger, Super Mario World, or Yoshi's Island.

I can understand that. Personally, the DKC games are some of my favorite visually on the console along with Killer Instinct. The same goes for PS1. I preferred the pre-rendered backgrounds of Resident Evil and Final Fantasy to the look of the games that went full 3D with low poly models. I do definitely appreciate good sprite work as well, possibly even more so today than I did back then since we don’t see it as often these days. Chrono Trigger still looks great to this day in my opinion.

Lol I admit that is pretty bad but I think that comes more down to character design choice than graphical style. I’m pretty sure it would still be ugly in sprites.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Firstly, a quick apology to Speed Weed because I have a feeling they won't like what I'm about to share:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

inhales deeply

I DON'T CARE IF I'M JUST HAVING AN IMMENSE AMOUNT OF HOPE, THE FACT THAT SOMEBODY ON SONIC TEAM WANTS TO BRING BACK BILLY HATCHER GIVES ME LIFE!!!!!! I LOVED BILLY HATCHER AS A KID AND WOULD DIE FOR A SEQUAL! LET IT HAPPEN, SEGA! LET IT HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Plus, it would make my desire for Billy in Smash slightly more justified).

 

[Diddy Kong]

Call me crazy, but i blast my ass of laughter if Goku was the main villain of a future Smash's story mode.
While this is out-of-character, make him a Hero Antagonist or whatever.

Am pretty sure Goku would make a last minute appearance much like Sonic did in SSE. Saving all from Tabuu. Sure he'd be a last minute addition too, or a DLC character added last like Sora.

I never liked the "scanned 3d model" look of SMRPG or DKC. To me, those games just looked way worse than, say, Final Fantasy 6, Chrono Trigger, Super Mario World, or Yoshi's Island.

Look at this fugly thing!

That is not comparable to the graphics of DKC, and you know it.

Post something from DKC this ugly, in game only.

 

[fogbadge]

Firstly, a quick apology to Speed Weed because I have a feeling they won't like what I'm about to share:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

inhales deeply

I DON'T CARE IF I'M JUST HAVING AN IMMENSE AMOUNT OF HOPE, THE FACT THAT SOMEBODY ON SONIC TEAM WANTS TO BRING BACK BILLY HATCHER GIVES ME LIFE!!!!!! I LOVED BILLY HATCHER AS A KID AND WOULD DIE FOR A SEQUAL! LET IT HAPPEN, SEGA! LET IT HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Plus, it would make my desire for Billy in Smash slightly more justified).

I would like to second that sentiment

 

[Speed Weed]

We must stop Shun Nakamura at all costs

 

[Ivander]

Call me crazy, but i blast my ass of laughter if Goku was the main villain of a future Smash's story mode.
While this is out-of-character, make him a Hero Antagonist or whatever.

Am pretty sure Goku would make a last minute appearance much like Sonic did in SSE. Saving all from Tabuu. Sure he'd be a last minute addition too, or a DLC character added last like Sora.

I think he and some of the other Dragon Ball characters were the final bosses or at least, the bosses before the Credits, in Jump Super Stars. And that's probably the best you could do with him is make him the "Final Tourney Round Boss" before the Credits rather than make him a direct Antagonist.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I have an even crazier idea.
The characters that aren't from video games are the "bad guys" (when they aren't) of the story mode because they were rejected by whoever gives the Invitation Card. While this has racist connotations using other entertainment media outside of gaming as an allegory, it would be like a stab in the heart to people who did these kind of requests. The characters doesn't even need to be a villain on their source material.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I personally adore both Super Mario RPG and DKC's aesthetics. In the case of the latter, while its visual style works best on CRT's when I played through the trilogy in handheld mode on Switch last year, they all still looked great. An HD remake that made it widescreen while smoothing out the models for modern TVs would be great.

With the former I think a change to its visuals would be to the game's detriment, because the weirdness and the (for lack of a better term) tangibility of the style is somewhat the point. Its a game living and breathing its status as an out there Nintendo and Squaresoft collaboration and in my estimation it balances the outworldly nature of the fantasy world with the charm of traditional Mario tropes. I really like Paper Mario's presentation, but the storybook aspects there made sense given the kind of stories and tones most of those games went for. Mario RPG stands out because (like the DKC games) of their contrast versus so many of the typical SMB releases. Most Mario game settings felt fun; Seven Stars and Donkey Kong Country felt real.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Firstly, a quick apology to Speed Weed because I have a feeling they won't like what I'm about to share:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

inhales deeply

I DON'T CARE IF I'M JUST HAVING AN IMMENSE AMOUNT OF HOPE, THE FACT THAT SOMEBODY ON SONIC TEAM WANTS TO BRING BACK BILLY HATCHER GIVES ME LIFE!!!!!! I LOVED BILLY HATCHER AS A KID AND WOULD DIE FOR A SEQUAL! LET IT HAPPEN, SEGA! LET IT HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Plus, it would make my desire for Billy in Smash slightly more justified).

You know what time it is

Every time a non-Sonic SEGA franchise is mentioned, Yuji Naka gets arrested for insider trading again!

...as a Sakura Wars fan don't give up your hope, but also don't be disappointed if it doesn't happen

 

[HyperSomari64]

Every time a non-Sonic SEGA franchise is mentioned, Yuji Naka gets arrested for insider trading again!

Is this some kind of curse related to Sonic's absence in Project X Zone.

 

[chocolatejr9]

You know what time it is

Every time a non-Sonic SEGA franchise is mentioned, Yuji Naka gets arrested for insider trading again!

...as a Sakura Wars fan don't give up your hope, but also don't be disappointed if it doesn't happen

Actually, if you don't mind me asking, how ARE things looking for Sakura Wars ATM? I remember you were a pretty big advocate for the series in Smash.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Actually, if you don't mind me asking, how ARE things looking for Sakura Wars ATM? I remember you were a pretty big advocate for the series in Smash.

Well, we did get a new game a couple years ago, 2019 for JP and 2020 for us, and a number of characters are DLC in Super Robot Wars 30, but other than that it's been pretty dead in the water again. I keep hoping for a collection of the older games, translated into English officially for the first time, but I lose a little hope every day. The original game got a fan translation, but the emulator and mod for it are really difficult to set up. A fan translation of 3 also started production.

 

[Perkilator]

Well, we did get a new game a couple years ago, 2019 for JP and 2020 for us, and a number of characters are DLC in Super Robot Wars 30, but other than that it's been pretty dead in the water again. I keep hoping for a collection of the older games, translated into English officially for the first time, but I lose a little hope every day. The original game got a fan translation, but the emulator and mod for it are really difficult to set up. A fan translation of 3 also started production.

I heard on Twitter that the franchise may not be entirely dead. IIRC, there was a diagram showing SEGA's "present" and "past" franchises and Sakura Wars was in neither category. I know that's pretty vague, but that says to me that if the franchise was truly "dead", it would be put in the "past" section.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I heard on Twitter that the franchise may not be entirely dead. IIRC, there was a diagram showing SEGA's "present" and "past" franchises and Sakura Wars was in neither category. I know that's pretty vague, but that says to me that if the franchise was truly "dead", it would be put in the "past" section.

I think I know which one you're talking about (heck, I think I shared it here), though I should probably mention that the "past" section was apparently referring to franchises Sega wanted to try and bring back, or something to that affect.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I heard on Twitter that the franchise may not be entirely dead. IIRC, there was a diagram showing SEGA's "present" and "past" franchises and Sakura Wars was in neither category. I know that's pretty vague, but that says to me that if the franchise was truly "dead", it would be put in the "past" section.

Right, now that you mention it I do recall that. I can only hope it's not dead.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

I don't find it strange or problematic that FE has no villain rep. The series has like 20 characters who could feasibly be called a "main protagonist," and they're more diverse than many people give them credit for.

Well, Robin technically counts since his future self is the villain.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I suspect the overall plan for Sakura Wars is being reassessed in light of the mobile spin-off underperforming and the recent console game doing okay, but likely having its sales potential very limited by not coming out on Nintendo. There's no way Sega hears about a game like Momotaro Dentetsu doing nearly 3 million in Japan and doesn't find themselves reconsidering their gaming strategy. Especially with Nagoshi gone (the one most resistant to Switch releases) a multiplat approach to future SW titles might be the safest way to ensure strong sales numbers.

 

[Ivander]

Well, Robin technically counts since his future self is the villain.

Except even his future self isn't evil. It's literally Grima possessing him. In Future Past when you fight against future Grima, if you don't have the items required to defeat him, future Robin will take control from Grima for a bit to prevent Lucina from dying. And if you do have the items required, Future Robin will thank Lucina and the other children for defeating them and Grima.

So Grima is the true villain regardless, while Robin themselves is never evil, even when their body is taken by Grima.

 

[SPEN18]

Well, Robin technically counts since his future self is the villain.

As Ivander explains, calling him/her a villain is at most a technicality or in a non-traditional sense. But also: my post was partially in response to comments by other users who thought it was odd and/or undesirable that FE had no villain reps (so presumably they weren't considering Robin as a villain).

 

[DarthEnderX]

Post something from DKC this ugly, in game only.

Okay.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Okay.
View attachment 365811

You DARE insult the great and mighty Kiddy Kong!?!

 

[TCT~Phantom]

One fun idea I had is this Smash what if: What if Ultimate had that extra year of development time? Here are my rules/guidelines for Ultimate in this scenario.

1. We still only get two fighters passes. Our DLC characters top our at 11 or 12 depending on if Plant makes the base game.
2. In terms of unique characters, the base game might get somewhere between 4-6 new ones in this scenario. Echos idk, that’s up to your judgement.
3. I doubt in this scenario EiH is gonna suddenly not happen just because we move the release date from 12/8/18 to 12/8/19 or so. I’d assume broadly speaking the characters that made it into ultimate, for better or for worse, won’t make it.

So that’s the lens for this what it. I’ll give my thoughts.

I am gonna be a bit boring for the base game and just say that we get Plant, Min Min, and Aegis in the base game instead of during the DLC lifespan. Arms and Xenoblade 2 mainly didn’t make it into the base game due to timing. With that extra year of time, I do not think they would have as many issues there. Plant also does seem to have been worked on earlier than the other DLC characters, so I will just put her in the base game.

One of the only base game characters I think is in true danger to get the axe is Incineroar. In this timeline, Gen 8 would be coming out right before the new smash and I think there is a very good likelihood that instead of the cat we get a Gen 8 Pokémon. Out of the Gen 8 roster, I think Cinderace would be the pick in this hypothetical scenario. As for when Ken gets revealed, idk. Maybe he gets in this trailer or someone else’s, who knows.

For my last pick or two, I wanted to go with some picks that had reasonably high demand. I also wanted to have one first party and one third party character be the picks. You could honestly slot any reasonably popular first party in this slot imo. I went with Isaac for the base game. As for third party, I did not want to just assume Nintendo could negotiate with someone entirely new, so I limited myself to the companies that were in Smash during Ultimate’s lifespan. For this, I ultimately went with the Dragonborn. I debated between the Mii costumes in the Kazuya reveal since they all had their popularity noted. I almost went with Lloyd over him. Stages would probably be Venus Lighthouse and the Throat of the World. Choosing a Skyrim stage was hard but I thought the aesthetic of the mountain was neat.

Real quick as for echoes, I’m just gonna add a small number. Shadow, Dixie Kong, and Galacta Knight are my picks. I don’t have much to say on these. I guess I’d stick Shadow in the reveal trailer for Dovakhin or Isaac, idk.

Finally, DLC changes a good bit with the timetable changed. I think that some things that missed the mark content wise are more likely to get content with their characters. Maybe we get FFVII remake and Persona 5 Royal music for example. The meatier thing is that now we have two open dlc slots with Aegis and Min Min being in the base game. I think the main candidates are first party characters that would or did have big successes on the switch. My picks here are Officer Howard and Bandana Dee. I guess I would do Zone 36 as Astral Chain’s stage, predominately based on the Eastside Highway. Bandana Dee you can do either Waddle Dee Town or Alivel mall. I think Forgotten Land content would be fine given the timeframe we are working with for this game. If Sakurai could get work on Byleth done before that game even launched, I don’t doubt he could do it for a different first party.

TLDR: our base roster loses Incineroar and gets Cinderace, Isaac, Dovakhin, Aegis, Min Min, and Plant as unique picks and a couple echos. We also get Dee and Officer Howard as DLC.

 

[fogbadge]

as it's the final day of the year i thought of something fun for us to do. (disclaimer: fogbadge cannot actually guarantee fun) i thought why don't we suggest the most random games we can think that could serve as stage ideas. you know games that might not be natural choice for a stage idea or something really obscure. like robotnik's mean bean machine

i'll start us off: Pokemon Smile, honestly i'd be amazing to see the smash gang fighting on a giant set of teeth

 

[HyperSomari64]

as it's the final day of the year i thought of something fun for us to do. (disclaimer: fogbadge cannot actually guarantee fun) i thought why don't we suggest the most random games we can think that could serve as stage ideas. you know games that might not be natural choice for a stage idea or something really obscure. like robotnik's mean bean machine

i'll start us off: Pokemon Smile, honestly i'd be amazing to see the smash gang fighting on a giant set of teeth

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