Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Sucumbio]

Bad Dudes! With Blade and Striker. Data East retro reps.

 

[Perkilator]

I decided to do another from-the-ground-up moveset, and the character I picked might surprise you guys.

Spoiler

Rolento
Takes No Prisoners!

Intro: Rolento falls to the ground and reports for duty.

Stance/Idle 1: His stance from the games.
Idle 2: Rolento taps his rod in his hand a couple times.
Idle 3: Rolento spins his rod.

Notable Palette Swaps:

1. Default
2. 2 Punches (red)
3. Auto Punch (dark yellow)
4. Kick (black)
5. 2 Kicks (green)
6. Auto Kick (blue)
7. 3 Punches (pink)
8. 3 Kicks (white)

Walk: His walk from the games.
Dash: His run from the games.
Damage: His damage animation from the games.
Jump: His jump from the games.
Crouch: His crouch from the games.

Normal Attacks
Jab: Patriot Circle; Rolento spins his rod three times (4% each time, OK knockback)
Forward+A: Rolento pokes the opponent with his rod (6%, small knockback)
Down+A: Trick Rod; Rolento jabs his rod into the ground (5%, small knockback). Rolento can briefly avoid a ground-based attack if he stays on his rod for a bit, and he can also jump from it.
Up+A: Rolento jabs his rod upwards (7%, OK knockback)

Aerial Attacks
Air+A: Rolento spins his rod three times (9%, OK knockback)
Air Forward+A: Rolento swings his rod downwards (10%, OK knockback)
Air Back + A: Rolento does a downward kick behind himself (8%, OK knockback)
Air Up+A: Rolento jabs his rod upwards (7%, OK knockback)
Air Down+A: Spike Rod; Rolento jabs his rod into the ground as he falls (8% with a meteor effect, small knockback)

Dash Attack: Rolento performs a sliding kick (7%, OK knockback)
Edge Attack: Rolento swings his rod downward, hitting the opponent twice (12%, OK knockback)
Get-Up Attack: Rolento blows himself up with a grenade (8%, OK knockback; 4% recoil)

Smash Attacks
Forward+A: A Red Beret’s Focus; Rolento swings his rod forward with great force while multiple small explosions happen in front of him (20%, medium knockback)
Up+A: Patriot Circle EX; Rolento spins his rod above himself (17%, OK knockback)
Down+A: Mekong Delta Air Raid; Rolento rolls forward to attack the opponent (18%, OK knockback)

Grab Game
Grab: Rolento grabs the opponent with his open hand.
Pummel: Rolento hits the opponent’s head with his rod (2%)
Forwards+Throw: Colonel Carrier; Rolento jumps over the opponent’s head and throws them using his rod (11%, OK knockback)
Down+Throw: Steel Rain; Rolento pushes the opponent to the ground (3%, small knockback) before knives rain down onto them (9%, OK knockback)
Back+Throw: Deadly Package; Rolento jumps behind his opponent and blows them up with a grenade (13%, OK knockback)
Up+Throw: Patriot Sweeper; Rolento spins his rod before blowing up the opponent with a grenade (14%, OK knockback)

Special Moves
B : Grenade Toss; Rolento tosses a grenade that changes trajectory based on where you tilt the control stick (8%, OK knockback; 3% recoil)
B + Forwards : Minesweeper; Rolento rolls around and drops four grenades (5% each, OK knockback; 2% recoil each). The grenades are thrown in the direction opposite to where Rolento is rolling, and you can roll forwards and backwards.
B + Up : Stinger; Rolento jumps up and throws three knives (6% each, small knockback; 4% recoil). If a knife gets stuck in the ground, it can be used as a throwing item.
B + Down : Mekong Delta Attack; Rolento jumps backwards and rolls into the opponent (11%, OK knockback; 5% recoil). You can switch to B + Up at the right moment and use it to recover by switching to Stinger.

Final Smash: Take No Prisoner; Rolento drops several grenades around himself (20%; 10% recoil). Any one fighter caught in the blast are then taken into a cutscene where Rolento grabs their back with a hook and pulls it down to severely injure them (40%, devastating knockback).

Gimmick: Similar to Final Fight, Rolento’s special moves deal small amounts of recoil damage. Rolento can also do a Trick Landing by pressing down on the control stick right as he lands.

Taunts
1: “I’ll show ya how a soldier wins a fight!” Rolento’s taunt from USF4.
2: “Ready!” Rolento salutes the opponent.
1+2: Rolento drops a grenade that bounces him into the air (3% recoil)

Winposes
1: “Mission complete!” Rolento turns around and snaps his fingers as explosions happen around him.
2: Rolento twirls his rod around and salutes the opponent.
3: Rolento's win pose from USF4.

Applause: Rolento respectfully claps for the opponent.
Icon: The ”Fi” in the Final Fight logo.
Boxing Ring Title: Perfect Soldier
Star K.O.: "My utopiaaaa...!"
Victory Music: https://youtu.be/3zn7hZMzX2M
Kirby Hat: Rolento’s beret and scar

 

[Quillion]

I mean, you are free to think that. But there is literally no evidence to suggest that for series like Fire Emblem, Pokemon, or Xenoblade with rotating casts that will ever not be the case. Ultimate if anything reinforces the idea even moreso.

That's the thing though, I think "shill picks" has worked as far as Ultimate and won't work afterwards. Constantly giving these "rotating cast" franchises the newest face isn't going to be sustainable. One can make all the arguments they want about having "everyone is here" after Ultimate be unsustainable, but "rotating cast shill picks" won't be sustainable no matter what.

We got characters like Incineroar, Aegis, and Byleth instead of taking the "wait and see" approach. I think this method honestly makes more sense. Choosing something from the most recent game makes far more sense for these series because choosing an older rep will most likely not represent what the series is doing now. Something like Lyn would be cool, but she likely would not be making it in without another Fire Emblem character to represent the new hotness. Smash in general has always slanted new when it comes to representation, even in the Melee days. Even for series like Mario which do take the "wait and see" approach, you can argue that when they get new characters like Rosalina or Bowser Jr they tend to trend on relevancy.

Eh, ideally the cast for a series (as a whole and individually) should represent both series legacy and "what the series is doing now." Hopefully that can mean no more FLUDD on Mario, but there's always the struggle of Ganondorf and Zelda's canonical abilities further diverging from what Smash is keeping them. It's a complicated issue.

You are free to think that the idea has run its course. Personally, I doubt the idea will ever run its course. So long as there are new Nintendo games to represent and new movesets to incorporate into smash, the sky's the limit. Do a summoner based moveset with Alear. Reference the different classes in a moveset for Noah/Mio. Choose a new pokemon and give it a good moveset, it isn't that hard. For franchises with a rotating cast, relevancy and promotional value are king. They were king broadly, but for these its even more true. It's fine to want them to stray away from that, but the ball is overwhelmingly in the camp of "shill picks" staying on top.

I just think it's a tradition that can be sacrificed for greater things. It's like BotW sacrificing Zelda's two-act structure to make its open world structure more coherent. Doesn't mean that the tradition is bad, but there's a whole world outside of it that's unexplored.

The drawback with "shill picks" is that they keep going for the main protagonist a lot of the time (Min Min being the one solid exception, while Pythra is debatable considering the plot revolves around them instead of Rex), and by convention of game design, protagonists end up being punchers and sword users since the first character needs to be the simplest to use. "Wait and see" could allow a greater chance for the deep cuts of deuter+agonists/side characters who have more interesting things they can do.

Also, what do you mean by "they were king broadly"?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

At what point does a "shill" pick stop being "shill?"

Min Min and Pyra/Mythra get thrown out as shills but their games were several years old at that point.

Where is the line drawn?

 

[SPEN18]

I mean, by the time of the next project plan it is likely that Xenoblade 3 will have been around long enough for it not to be blatant shill. But also, part of the point of anti-shill is that now, in the wake of the game's release, is not the best time to objectively evaluate said game (in which case adding it to a project plan if it were happening right now I would flag as premature). And even assuming Xenoblade 3 will indeed be old enough to not be blatant shill when the next project plan is made, there is also the issue of considering how it stacks up to older characters from the series. Preferring the newer game simply for being newer would clearly conflict with anti-shill, even if said newer game isn't particularly new to begin with.
You can't pick Noah over Elma, for example, simply because Noah is the newer character. However, you also can't pick Elma over Noah simply because she is older. Characters from all eras should be given a fair chance at having their merits evaluated, regardless of era, and that is the spirit of what I would call the anti-shill attitude to rostering. The roster patterns of Smash have historically not, in my opinion, wholly exhibited this fair disposition towards all eras.

Also, arguing that non-shill picks are less likely than shill picks says nothing about whether continued free-shilling is an effective or fair rostering strategy, which I think it is not. It is clear already that rostering patterns that have held for several games are usually more likely to continue to hold than they are to suddenly deteriorate; however, that does nothing to stop advocacy for change, nor the merits of the advocated alternative rostering principles. Simply rooting for the most likely characters was never a driving principle behind anti-shill; if anything, anti-shill attitudes naturally arise from disdain towards the current likelihood paradigm.

"An older rep would most likely not represent what the series is doing now": of course it wouldn't, because that's not the point of adding a legacy character. The point of a legacy character is to represent a series', well, legacy; those items are just as important to Smash as the "new hotness." In the particular case of Lyn, the Switch era of FE is already represented and the newest entry Engage evidently thrives off nostalgia for older characters anyway, so the point is even more moot there.

Lastly, the anti-shill attitude, at least as I view it, never says that newer characters are inherently boring or inherently bad picks. But they should not be given an automatic leg-up over stronger or equally strong candidates from other eras; if anything, it would be fairer for new characters to wait their turn after justice is served to strong candidates who were simply victims of poor timing and other circumstantial factors that IMO currently hold too much weight in the rostering process.

 

[osby]

At what point does a "shill" pick stop being "shill?"

Min Min and Pyra/Mythra get thrown out as shills but their games were several years old at that point.

Where is the line drawn?

When I play a game as a kid and make it a sigificant part of my gaming experience of my formative years.

 

[SPEN18]

At what point does a "shill" pick stop being "shill?"

Min Min and Pyra/Mythra get thrown out as shills but their games were several years old at that point.

Where is the line drawn?

You're right that the line is blurry. ARMS and Xeno2 were still Switch-era games, though, which is probably where the shill labels come from. Also the fact that seemingly only Switch-era characters were put at the top of the 1P stack for DLC spots.

 

[Quillion]

At what point does a "shill" pick stop being "shill?"

Min Min and Pyra/Mythra get thrown out as shills but their games were several years old at that point.

Where is the line drawn?

I thought I was using "shill pick" as shorthand for "obligatory new face from newest installment". That's why I said:

"Shill picks" weren't an inherently, unilaterally bad idea, but the idea has run its course.

I can return to "obligatory new face" if need be.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Also, what do you mean by "they were king broadly"?

I am not going to discuss what ideally you want or ideally you would prefer to happen, since I can't change that and it you have yet to really offer any reason to back up your idea. What I can tell you is that relevancy is and has been king.

The way smash has chosen a majority of its first party newcomers could be argued to be shill picks based on recency. Brawl overwhelmingly pulled from the Gamecube and GBA/DS. Smash 4 overwhelmingly pulled from the Wii and 3DS eras. The Wii U was not exactly a fertile ground to choose from for newcomers, but we got three relevant ones for that era. For DLC, all the third parties in the fighters passes were relevant first parties. Smash is always going to lean on relevancy for a large part of their picks. Sure, sometimes they might line up and they might "wait and see" and choose a perfect rep, but this has really never been exactly the case.

Let's take Brawl for example. The roster for Brawl was decided in 2005. Outside of our retro newcomers and third parties, almost all of the characters were chosen due to some form of recency bias. All but four of them had some form of high profile release in that era. The only exceptions to that were Ike and Lucario, who had slots set aside for a new pokemon and Fire Emblem character. Smash 4 would show us something similar. Outside of our third parties and retro picks, the newcomer selection heavily leaned on what is relevant when the roster was chosen ~2012. The only real exceptions again were when they future proofed it by setting aside picks for Pokemon and Fire Emblem, which both had upcoming high profile releases.

Ultimate was a bit of a departure, especially with its smaller newcomer pool. The thing is, the Wii U era was a dark age for Nintendo. How much would they have to celebrate from there? Even in spite of that we got three relevancy based newcomers for the base game and three relevant ones for DLC. Heck, you could even argue Ridley could have had a tad bit of that sauce as well with Samus Returns on the horizon. The only real exceptions were K Rool, a huge fan favorite, and Plant, a literal joke character.

When the next Smash is chosen, they are almost certainly going to look at it with a close mindset to what they did for Brawl-Ultimate (and arguably even before that as well). Your newcomers might have a few fan favorites sure. Maybe they "wait and saw" which ones to pick. But overwhelmingly it will be picks from the Switch era. Maybe a few slots set aside for Pokemon and Fire Emblem who with their rotating cast they can't wait and see.

That's the thing though, I think "shill picks" has worked as far as Ultimate and won't work afterwards. Constantly giving these "rotating cast" franchises the newest face isn't going to be sustainable. One can make all the arguments they want about having "everyone is here" after Ultimate be unsustainable, but "rotating cast shill picks" won't be sustainable no matter what.

Eh, ideally the cast for a series (as a whole and individually) should represent both series legacy and "what the series is doing now." Hopefully that can mean no more FLUDD on Mario, but there's always the struggle of Ganondorf and Zelda's canonical abilities further diverging from what Smash is keeping them. It's a complicated issue.

I just think it's a tradition that can be sacrificed for greater things. It's like BotW sacrificing Zelda's two-act structure to make its open world structure more coherent. Doesn't mean that the tradition is bad, but there's a whole world outside of it that's unexplored.

The drawback with "shill picks" is that they keep going for the main protagonist a lot of the time (Min Min being the one solid exception, while Pythra is debatable considering the plot revolves around them instead of Rex), and by convention of game design, protagonists end up being punchers and sword users since the first character needs to be the simplest to use. "Wait and see" could allow a greater chance for the deep cuts of deuter+agonists/side characters who have more interesting things they can do.

First off, I think you extremely underestimate how sustainable adding new characters are. So long as Nintendo is a company making games, there are going to be new things to promote. You can always add in something unique enough at the end of the day if you want to represent new stuff. Simplifying it to just people punching or stabbing people is like saying that all the new courses in Mario Kart are similar because they have turns. That is the most surface level observation possible. While some of them have overlaps with the rest of the roster, they all tend to take it in very distinct directions.

Lets take a look at a few maligned examples by the community which prove my point. Incineroar is fundamentally a more simple character. He is just a brawler. To be unique, he takes a different spin and becomes one of the few interpretations of a true grappler we have seen in Smash. Does he have some DNA with other existing fighters? Sure, if you sum him up as just a punchy character who is heavy. In practice there is so much more under the hood. Corrin and Byleth, probably two of the most controversial additions of all time, also prove this. Corrin and Byleth both are traditional swordfighters, but in their own way not only represent Fire Emblem further, but take a unique approach to handling their archetype. Corrin focuses on transforming parts of their body and showing off the Manakete side of Fire Emblem. While they are a pretty no frills sword fighter, their special moves lean highly into their transformation gimmick and help them feel distinct, especially Pin. Byleth takes this in a different direction, trading some of the safer parts of a traditional swordfighter for a mixture of precise hitboxes with Arendbar, crushing power with Amyr, and strong explosive gameplay moments with the sword of the creator. You even have the Weapons Triangle from Fire Emblem finally in Smash.

You can make any character a unique interesting newcomer in Smash if you set your mind to it. Sure, there will be some basic overlaps. The series has over 80 unique characters. There will always be overlaps. Even if the series did get a thanos snap, there would be overlaps in the roster. Simplifying everyone to just "punch and sword users" is just disingenuous. You could want them to take a different approach. You can want them to wait and see if the perfect newcomer falls into their lap. But that is not how things happen.

I just think it's a tradition that can be sacrificed for greater things. It's like BotW sacrificing Zelda's two-act structure to make its open world structure more coherent. Doesn't mean that the tradition is bad, but there's a whole world outside of it that's unexplored.

This is going to be my final reply to you, but this right here shows your bias. Wanting the series to go in new directions is fine. Wanting the series to forgo the way that it handles its newcomer selection is fine. But you were speaking with a matter of fact attitude that shill reps were a thing of the past... despite overwhelming evidence that is not the case. You might want shill reps to be a thing of the past, but that will not manifest itself into Sakurai changing his mind and deciding to "wait and see" for newcomer picks. People often in Smash let their own personal biases and desires cloud their judgement. Obviously I am not a stranger to this, but I tend to look as objectively as possible at things. No sense in setting yourself up for disappointment with lofty unrealistic expectations. People often try to hand wave away any pause to their expectations with the promises of what ifs or the idea of anything being possible. Anything is possible. They could go with your idea of not having shill picks. But that does not mean it is probable.

My expectations for the next Smash are a newcomer roster of 10-14 unique characters heavily pulling from the Switch era, at least two seasons of DLC, slightly improved WiFi that while better than the last game will not be up to snuff compared to the rest of the industry, and an adventure mode that is basically World of Light 2. Is this exactly what I want? Hell no. If I had my way with Smash, the newcomer selection would be super different than what my personal roster prediction right now is. WiFi would not be actual garbage. The stage hazard toggle would be more dynamic, so that we could get good things like Wily Castle's platforms but not the yellow devil, Dive into the Heart, Smashville's moving platform, Fountain of Dream's moving platform, Randall, and the Support Ghosts. And perhaps most importantly, we would have a proper Break the Targets stage designed around each character's strengths and weaknesses. Is half of that even likely? Absolutely not. The only thing there that is remotely on the table imo is the Stage Hazard toggle getting a slight rework.

I am even willing to say things I do not want to happen are extremely likely for the next Smash. Right now, I think that so long as it does not implode, Genshin Impact will probably be a top contender for getting a new character in the next Smash. And I do not care at all about Genshin Impact. There obviously is a whole world to explore of possibilities. Both ones that you might want and those that you might loathe. But people in Smash speculation let perfect be the enemy of good or objective. It is fine to want Smash to forsake tradition. Accept that, embrace that, go for it. But you need to understand that more likely than not, smash will probably take the path of least resistance again.

---------------------------------------------------

At what point does a "shill" pick stop being "shill?"

Min Min and Pyra/Mythra get thrown out as shills but their games were several years old at that point.

Where is the line drawn?

"Shill pick" is slang for "I wanted a newcomer but not that new recent newcomer".

In all seriousness though, as I said above in this post you could argue that almost every smash newcomer is a "shill pick" of some form. People use it as a negative description because it is the easiest way to put down something they don't like. I remember so many people whining about how Smash Ultimate's DLC did not include enough first parties... and then were upset when they included Pyra/Mythra and Min Min. People naturally let perfect be the enemy of good. They want their perfect dream newcomers and for Sakurai's team to cater specifcially to them. Personally, I do not care if you are from some deep cut game I played over a decade ago or from something I played in the last two years. So long as the character is fun I am down. I know a super majority of the base game newcomers are going to be a greatest hits catalogue from the Switch, no need to get unrealistic expectations. Just give me a few fun characters, some cool remixes, and good stages for 1v1s and I am happy.

 

[Idon]

Hmm, have you considered that Noah has a SWORD INSIDE THE SWORD?
This makes him out first SWORD SQUARED character, and thus makes him the swordiest sword character to ever sword.

Basically what I'm saying is, he's in.

 

[Ivander]

He may have debuted on PlayStation and Sega Saturn, but does anyone else think Rayman feels like an honorary Nintendo character? pic.twitter.com/EFoeGhMSlt

— Rayman for Smash Together (@RaymanForSmash) October 11, 2022

This got me thinking... who do you guys consider "honorary Nintendo characters"? Y'know, characters like Banjo and Bayonetta: not owned by Nintendo, but so heavily associated with them they may as well be.

I would honestly consider Professor Layton one, if not for the fact that almost all of his games were localized and published by Nintendo for worldwide releases, while his Japanese releases were published by Level-5. Even Layton X Phoenix Wright was published by Nintendo outside of Japan. I don't think Layton wouldn't have had as much success and popularity had it not been for Nintendo playing a big role in bringing the games out of Japan.

So long as there are new Nintendo games to represent and new movesets to incorporate into smash, the sky's the limit. Do a summoner based moveset with Alear.

when your summoner gimmick for 6 years gets taken by a mainline game lord with toothpaste for hair

At least they still have their sick-ass tambourine skills.

Hmm, have you considered that Noah has a SWORD INSIDE THE SWORD?
This makes him out first SWORD SQUARED character, and thus makes him the swordiest sword character to ever sword.

Basically what I'm saying is, he's in.

They aren't no swordchucks, but Fighter McWarrior would still be proud.

 

[dream1ng]

At what point does a "shill" pick stop being "shill?"

Min Min and Pyra/Mythra get thrown out as shills but their games were several years old at that point.

Where is the line drawn?

If you fit

• the game being chosen before the character was decided
• debuting in the newest game in the series
• the game being released after the previous Smash

You have the criteria common to shill choices.

Whether being from a series of rotating cast seems like a matter of debate since some people consider Min Min a shill character. Though ARMS did follow the normal trajectory of new IP comes out -> new IP proves successful -> new IP gets representation. It just happened via DLC instead of the following game.

Having said that, they used to just be called promotional characters, which was a term imbued with less stigma.

 

[Quillion]

But you were speaking with a matter of fact attitude that shill reps were a thing of the past... despite overwhelming evidence that is not the case.

If I did this, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to be as real about what I think as possible, which often makes me overly aggressive.

But you need to understand that more likely than not, smash will probably take the path of least resistance again.

Yes, more likely than not, Smash will stick to its comfortable traditions since they work and they keep enough people happy.

And that's going to disappoint me since while many celebrate when other Nintendo series like Zelda or Mario or Pokémon expand their horizons by taking a good look at conventions that should be thrown out, kept wholesale, or tweaked, Smash is going to stay stuck in its ways.

That's my opinion, I've been open about my thoughts on Smash's staleness to this point, and I'll keep being this way.

 

[SPEN18]

I think we should set aside the idea that "shill" picks simply refer to characters that one doesn't like or isn't particularly nostalgically drawn to. Personally, I advocate for characters from a broad range of eras, including ones that I didn't grow up with or anything. There is a subset of anti-shillers who use the "shill" label as an artificial dismisser, but this should not harm arguments surrounding any potential systemic issues with the rostering process.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

you fit

• the game being chosen before the character was decided
• debuting in the newest game in the series
• the game being released after the previous Smash

Is Inkling a shill pick?

 

[fogbadge]

At what point does a "shill" pick stop being "shill?"

Min Min and Pyra/Mythra get thrown out as shills but their games were several years old at that point.

Where is the line drawn?

with the imaginary numbers in their heads

 

[HyperSomari64]

With this "Honorary Nintendo Chatacter" stuff, remind me to the Honorary Video Game Characters in general. Like the ones that people forgot about ther original source material and think they started their fictional lifes on the electronic games.
Examples: Turok, Hatsune Miku, Sam & Max, Geralt, etc.

 

[Quillion]

Is Inkling a shill pick?

I'd rather call them "obligatory new face" at that point; much less of a negative connotation.

TBH, I'll just stop using "shill pick" and use "obligatory new face".

 

[Sucumbio]

Wait...

Ok so why is it not sustainable to promote major franchises with "rotating casts" (I'm assuming meaning each new game has familiar faces if not just outright copy paste like Mario) using the new character? Considering they could just stick around for one smash title what's unsustainable? It may be unpopular amongst some fans to do that but I for one think it's cool to see "new" Pokemon or FE characters. Not terribly interested in XC characters and as a series it's got a long way to go to equal the likes of Pokemon or FE.

 

[fogbadge]

I'd rather call them "obligatory new face" at that point; much less of a negative connotation.

TBH, I'll just stop using "shill pick" and use "obligatory new face".

still negative connotations

 

[Gengar84]

He may have debuted on PlayStation and Sega Saturn, but does anyone else think Rayman feels like an honorary Nintendo character? pic.twitter.com/EFoeGhMSlt

— Rayman for Smash Together (@RaymanForSmash) October 11, 2022

This got me thinking... who do you guys consider "honorary Nintendo characters"? Y'know, characters like Banjo and Bayonetta: not owned by Nintendo, but so heavily associated with them they may as well be.

Personally, I’ve always considered pretty much every character developed by RARE during the time they were with Nintendo as honorary Nintendo characters. That includes the Battletoads, Killer Instinct characters, Joanna Dark, and Conker.

 

[Quillion]

Considering they could just stick around for one smash title what's unsustainable?

To be fair, if the Smash series breaks out of its mindset that as much veterans have to return as possible, a rotating spot for the "new face" could work.

But not only, as TCT~Phantom said, is it unlikely, there are real concerns that such an approach will frustrate audiences with inconsistency.

Still, you're right. It's one of several mindsets I'd like to see Smash break.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Speaking of tradition, there is one that I think is worth discussing: the retro slot.

While in Ultimate we did not get a traditional retro pick, I would argue that some of our third parties filled that slot instead. Terry and the Belmonts both pulled from that 80s/Early 90s era that we tend to associate with Retro picks. I think for the sake of argument, anything before the jump to 3D could be considered fair game for a retro pick. I think Terry's initial reveal also highlights this well: they literally highlighted how old the Neo Geo and as a result Terry were.

What I think this means is that while we will probably get a retro newcomer, it might not be a NES deep cut from Nintendo. Maybe instead of getting a Takamaru we get a Ryu Hayabusa. An Arthur from Ghosts and Goblins instead of an Excitebiker. Heck, I could see Ys getting the nod as well if they went in a Terry style direction in particular. I think that at the end of the day, there is still this clear desire to represent Nintendo and gaming history in Smash. Just do not be shocked if the retro pick is not Takamaru.

 

[Gengar84]

Admittedly, I have a bit of a bias toward retro characters but I’m perfectly fine getting a mix of both old and new characters as we continue to expand the roster. My only real concern is that some franchises like Pokémon and Fire Emblem might focus a bit too much on just adding the latest starter or lord without even considering other options.

 

[Quillion]

Admittedly, I have a bit of a bias toward retro characters but I’m perfectly fine getting a mix of both old and new characters as we continue to expand the roster. My only real concern is that some franchises like Pokémon and Fire Emblem might focus a bit too much on just adding the latest starter or lord without even considering other options.

Don't forget Xenoblade's protagonists.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Speaking of tradition, there is one that I think is worth discussing: the retro slot

I'll actually argue that the retro slot isn't actually a slot at all.

Many of the characters we'd consider retro (Game and Watch, R.O.B. and Duck Hunt) were chosen as "surprise characters." The same slot Pirahna Plant was chosen to fill. Pit was due to popularity.

There is really only one character chosen because they were retro and that was Ice Climbers.

 

[Gengar84]

Don't forget Xenoblade's protagonists.

We’ve only had two Xenoblade characters so far so I’m not ready to say that’s a pattern yet. We did get Pyra and Mythra over Rex so that’s already a bit of a break. If we get Noah and Mio in the next Smash, then I’ll say it’s a pattern. I love Pokémon, Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade, but it would be cool to see a bit of variance in the roster selection from those games.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I'll actually argue that the retro slot isn't actually a slot at all.

Many of the characters we'd consider retro (Game and Watch, R.O.B. and Duck Hunt) were chosen as "surprise characters." The same slot Pirahna Plant was chosen to fill. Pit was due to popularity.

There is really only one character chosen because they were retro and that was Ice Climbers.

I mean, there always are surprise characters, but they also are characters that do apply as retro picks when they were chosen. While Pit is essentially a Kid Icarus Uprising rep nowadays, in Brawl he was absolutely a retro pick. Even though Mac and Mega Man in Smash 4 had modern appearances in the Wii era, I do think that they still qualify as well.

Sure, maybe the "surprise" characters do not qualify, but I think that there is still grounds to say we have had a retro rep every game.

 

[Sucumbio]

Still, you're right. It's one of several mindsets I'd like to see Smash break.

Yes actually me too. I'm going to be pleasantly surprised if the next Smash is just New. Familiar but new. I have been able to adapt from Brawl to 4 to Ult in about 5 minutes or so to move but 4 took the longest to reach a deep understanding of the game. Ultimate took the least. Ultimate is also the most balanced.

A lot can be said about NOT throwing it all out the window and starting over. But if it happens I won't be upset. Unless it plays like **** lol.

 

[Sucumbio]

I mean, there always are surprise characters, but they also are characters that do apply as retro picks when they were chosen. While Pit is essentially a Kid Icarus Uprising rep nowadays, in Brawl he was absolutely a retro pick. Even though Mac and Mega Man in Smash 4 had modern appearances in the Wii era, I do think that they still qualify as well.

Sure, maybe the "surprise" characters do not qualify, but I think that there is still grounds to say we have had a retro rep every game.

I think he meant retro rep was the reason for inclusion not that their origin is retro...

But yeah agree we've had retro reps since Brawl

 

[Gengar84]

Yes actually me too. I'm going to be pleasantly surprised if the next Smash is just New. Familiar but new. I have been able to adapt from Brawl to 4 to Ult in about 5 minutes or so to move but 4 took the longest to reach a deep understanding of the game. Ultimate took the least. Ultimate is also the most balanced.

A lot can be said about NOT throwing it all out the window and starting over. But if it happens I won't be upset. Unless it plays like **** lol.

Worst case scenario, I can just keep playing Ultimate so I won’t really be too upset no matter what direction Smash decides to go for the next game.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I mean, there always are surprise characters, but they also are characters that do apply as retro picks when they were chosen. While Pit is essentially a Kid Icarus Uprising rep nowadays, in Brawl he was absolutely a retro pick. Even though Mac and Mega Man in Smash 4 had modern appearances in the Wii era, I do think that they still qualify as well.

Sure, maybe the "surprise" characters do not qualify, but I think that there is still grounds to say we have had a retro rep every game.

Well now hold on.

Are we counting characters who have modern appearances as retro? Are Ridley and K. Rool retro characters because they debuted in the 80s and 90s? Why did Pit stop being a retro character if Simon and Mega Man count? If they're not chosen due to their retro nature, do they still count as a "retro slot?"

We seem to have vastly different definitions.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Well now hold on.

Are we counting characters who have modern appearances as retro? Are Ridley and K. Rool retro characters because they debuted in the 80s and 90s? Why did Pit stop being a retro character if Simon and Mega Man count? If they're not chosen due to their retro nature, do they still count as a "retro slot?"

We seem to have vastly different definitions.

While Little Mac and Mega Man have had modern appearances, in Smash they are pretty much retro characters. Mac takes inspiration primarily from the arcade game in all ways but design and his final smash. Mega Man is essentially his NES self in Smash. IMO, if your appearance in Smash is intrinsically tied to your old school appearances, you lean retro. It's why I would say that Mega Man and Mac are Retro, while your examples are not.

 

[fogbadge]

We’ve only had two Xenoblade characters so far so I’m not ready to say that’s a pattern yet. We did get Pyra and Mythra over Rex so that’s already a bit of a break. If we get Noah and Mio in the next Smash, then I’ll say it’s a pattern. I love Pokémon, Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade, but it would be cool to see a bit of variance in the roster selection from those games.

and we all know why that pattern broke

no I will not let it go

 

[Swamp Sensei]

While Little Mac and Mega Man have had modern appearances, in Smash they are pretty much retro characters. Mac takes inspiration primarily from the arcade game in all ways but design and his final smash. Mega Man is essentially his NES self in Smash. IMO, if your appearance in Smash is intrinsically tied to your old school appearances, you lean retro. It's why I would say that Mega Man and Mac are Retro, while your examples are not.

This seems arbitrary. With this definition I can easily argue Ridley is retro.

• Size is the NES size
• Design takes lots of elements of Super Metroid
• Neutral B is from Metroid (NES)
• The only move that is blatantly from newer game is the Side B, with all others being largely Smash original
• Tail attacks are inspired by Super Metroid boss fight.

And for K.Rool, well gosh darn, almost everything is from the Super Nintendo games with the only exception being the Blast-O-Matic. Even his belly armor is from the SNES games specifically as they got rid of it in newer games.

This logic isn't consistent.

 

[Gengar84]

and we all know why that pattern broke

That’s true but it’s still a break either way. So far I think Noah and Mio are my favorite main protagonists of the mainline Xenoblade games so I wouldn’t be too bothered if they kept the trend, although it would be cool to have their fused form as the playable rep. I’m still only around 25 hours in so I have a long ways to go.

 

[fogbadge]

That’s true but it’s still a break either way. So far I think Noah and Mio are my favorite main protagonists of the mainline Xenoblade games so I wouldn’t be too bothered if they kept the trend, although it would be cool to have their fused form as the playable rep. I’m still only around 25 hours in so I have a long ways to go.

if the pattern continues the next character won’t even be one of the playable characters

25 hours? You’re only in the tutorial?

 

[Gengar84]

if the pattern continues the next character won’t even be one of the playable characters

25 hours? You’re only in the tutorial?

Probably. I haven’t had a ton of time to play games lately since I’ve got a lot of stuff to deal with in my personal life. Hopefully, once things settle down a bit I can dedicate a bit more time to finishing it. I do enjoy it so far.

 

[fogbadge]

Probably. I haven’t had a ton of time to play games lately since I’ve got a lot of stuff to deal with in my personal life. Hopefully, once things settle down a bit I can dedicate a bit more time to finishing it. I do enjoy it so far.

well enjoy yourself. I’ll tell you now it took me about 120 hours to finish

 

[Gengar84]

well enjoy yourself. I’ll tell you now it took me about 120 hours to finish

Thanks. I have so many games on my backlog I need to finish, it’s a bit overwhelming. I need to learn to stop buying new 100 hour JRPGs until I finish the ones I already have lol.