Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Quillion]

So over on this thread, I've been thinking of ways to turn the Y button into another attack button. I came up with two possibilities:

Consolidate Cloud's Limit, Mac's KO Punch, and Terry's Desperation into a single "super meter" mechanic, and map the "Super Special" button to Y by default. You can build the super meter up to three charges, and using one super special will expend one of those charges (with a few exceptions). Super specials will be powered-up versions of existing specials, not new moves though.

Now that I think about it, maybe smashes could be mapped to Y while super specials can be mapped to A+B. A neutral Y would just be an F-Smash.

I also came up with a third possibility: Y can be used for "kick normals" while A is used for "punch normals".

All three have their strengths and drawbacks though. Either way, Smash really needs something to shake up the core instead of add new modes and characters with new gimmicks. Plus, it could still happen while building upon the assets of Ultimate.

 

[dream1ng]

see this is my problem with the idea of them being promotional, cause what sense does it make for it to be FE where there a bigger games from around the same time. think about the scenario that apparently suggests someone at nintendo goes "hmm what games to we have coming out this year that we can promote in smash, well there's super mario maker 2 from our flagship series, theres that link's awakening remake we're making a fair bit of fuss about, pokemon sword and shield they're sure to sell loads and of course luigi's mansion 3 people love those. and then there's those new ips we have that could do with a boost, astral chain from platinum people are very fond of those games, ring fit adventure the spiritual successor to wii fit that pretty much printed money for us. oh i know let's go for a character from that series that while it is critically acclaimed is still to this day out sold by nintendogs"

It's common knowledge that series with static main casts don't appear as the type Nintendo is concerned to promote. Ring Fit and Astral Chain became prominent only after the selection period, they were too late. And Pokemon could've got a promotional DLC character, but it did already get one in base.

These are all very obvious answers.

of course sakurai is sick of adding in fire emblem that's why he so passionate about it in his byleth video. and after all its not like he ever contradicts himself
"cant include ayumi she's japan only. here's marth"

Opossum already tackled this, but Ayumi was considered for a spot that was going to a starting roster character who was going to be prominent in promotion.

That wasn't going to go to a character that didn't show up in most of the world. Marth was an unlockable character despite being FE's "biggest" protag, and was planned to be cut because of his JP-only status. And Roy was the beneficiary of Sakurai looking for padding.

"you're right there's too many sword fighters. have steve sephiroth pyra and mythra."

In the very statement this quote is taken from has Sakurai explaining he doesn't choose these characters. If you'll notice in base, where Sakurai presumably has a bit more autonomy, the only sword-wielder we got was a popular echo.

"characters need personality so have several blank avatars who's only personality is what you all project on to them"

Are you conflating Sakurai saying a character needs to be able to "dance in his head" with a character needing personality? Because I don't think he ever said the latter. And the former just means he can envision how they'd function.

There are instances of Sakurai contradicting himself out there, but even those don't really matter considering promotional additions happen at the behest of other parties.

 

[fogbadge]

Ah you’re all probably right and I’m just to cynical to accept it

 

[Quillion]

I will say that there are quite a bit of patterns, both stated and unstated, that I want broken.

• Assist Trophies never becoming DLC during a game's lifetime: Implementing a hidden toggle to turn off Assists that have become DLC is just a simple Boolean if-then condition.
• "Rotating cast" franchises getting the character from the most recent installment: I've said my piece why, and **** TPC/GF if they're keeping this pattern alive for Pokémon, and **** Nintendo for keeping it alive for Fire Emblem when Sakurai himself has had enough.
• Non-video game characters not being in Smash: But only with the caveat that a video game adaptation has overshadowed its source to the point that it has become the NEW source material for subsequent adaptations like The Witcher or Turok.
• Post-release Mii Costumes never becoming characters during a game's lifetime: TBH, if this is an unwritten rule at Sora Ltd., it's horribly justified considering there are Mii Costumes for characters already in Smash.

 

[dream1ng]

Post-release Mii Costumes never becoming characters during a game's lifetime: TBH, if this is an unwritten rule at Sora Ltd., it's horribly justified considering there are Mii Costumes for characters already in Smash.

I think you're looking at this one backwards. Characters aren't passed on because they get DLC Mii costumes. They're made DLC Mii costumes because they weren't added as characters.

But this can in theory be broken if next time there's a reevaluation phase which comes after roadmapping the DLC. This time there wasn't - it appears they already knew who was going to be added even in the second pass (Sora potentially aside) quite early on, and thus could arrange the costumes and spirits to avoid overlap. If we had received a third pass which was decided last year, that could've potentially put costume'd characters back on the table.

 

[Quillion]

I think you're looking at this one backwards. Characters aren't passed on because they get DLC Mii costumes. They're made DLC Mii costumes because they weren't added as characters.

But this can in theory be broken if next time there's a reevaluation phase which comes after roadmapping the DLC. This time there wasn't - it appears they already knew who was going to be added even in the second pass (Sora potentially aside) quite early on, and thus could arrange the costumes and spirits to avoid overlap. If we had received a third pass which was decided last year, that could've potentially put costume'd characters back on the table.

Rex was still considered to be playable in Smash, with Pythra going "alone" due to technical issues. Wasn't there a re-evaluation period between the finalization of FP1 plans and the start of FP2 pre-development?

 

[dream1ng]

Rex was still considered to be playable in Smash, with Pythra going "alone" due to technical issues. Wasn't there a re-evaluation period between the finalization of FP1 plans and the start of FP2 pre-development?

Rex is effectively base game era content that was held off to be leveraged for the purchasing of the pass, which is why he could be offered as soon as the pass was made available, concurrently with launch. He's not a valid parallel to costumes that were added later on and were sold piecemeal.

Though if you want to group him with the DLC then that already disproves this alleged rule, doesn't it.

 

[Quillion]

Rex is effectively base game era content that was held off to be leveraged for the purchasing of the pass, which is why he could be offered as soon as the pass was made available, concurrently with launch. He's not a valid parallel to costumes that were added later on and were sold piecemeal.

Though if you want to group him with the DLC then that already disproves this alleged rule, doesn't it.

You mean the Rex costume? I can see that being held off as an bonus reward for FP buyers before any of the characters were released.

Still though, we have Mii Costumes of characters already playable and Mii Costumes of characters not already playable, the latter even including base game costumes. AFAIK, none of the latter have been promoted across Smash 4 or Ultimate. It's a dumb pattern either way.

 

[dream1ng]

You mean the Rex costume? I can see that being held off as an bonus reward for FP buyers before any of the characters were released.

Still though, we have Mii Costumes of characters already playable and Mii Costumes of characters not already playable, the latter even including base game costumes. AFAIK, none of the latter have been promoted across Smash 4 or Ultimate. It's a dumb pattern either way.

In 4 we got costumes of Inking, K. Rool, Chrom, Daisy, and Isabelle.

 

[Quillion]

In 4 we got costumes of Inking, K. Rool, Chrom, Daisy, and Isabelle.

Oh right; probably should have said during Smash 4 or Ultimate's lifetime.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

• Non-video game characters not being in Smash: But only with the caveat that a video game adaptation has overshadowed its source to the point that it has become the NEW source material for subsequent adaptations like The Witcher or Turok.

Nah, keep this rule unbroken. None of this breaking limits. We broken from just Nintendo and that already cause enough nonsense. Let's keep it strictly gaming, just having adaptation.

Let the series have some of form of identity instead of becoming a corporate slob of big brand ips just being churned by the second.

 

[Quillion]

Nah, keep this rule unbroken. None of this breaking limits. We broken from just Nintendo and that already cause enough nonsense. Let's keep it strictly gaming, just having adaptation.

Let the series have some of form of identity instead of becoming a corporate slob of big brand ips just being churned by the second.

I wouldn't mind if that rule stays put honestly.

But with Video Games starting to become a cause of adaptation displacement like movies are now, I can't help but think that Smash might break that pattern by pure accident. They might not have the resources to do the research to go to the very beginning.

Yeah, Google's a thing and that makes ignorance a choice, but people still choose ignorance regardless.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So over on this thread, I've been thinking of ways to turn the Y button into another attack button. I came up with two possibilities:





I also came up with a third possibility: Y can be used for "kick normals" while A is used for "punch normals".

All three have their strengths and drawbacks though. Either way, Smash really needs something to shake up the core instead of add new modes and characters with new gimmicks. Plus, it could still happen while building upon the assets of Ultimate.

What about using the Y button for "strong tilts", attacks that are stronger than tilts but weaker than Smashes? You'd be able to translate them into aerial attacks to. For example, Fox's D Air is how he'd regular do aerial Down A, but a more powerful version of Falco's D Air is aerial Down Y. And you can apply this to Specials too. In general, Super Specials seem like a great idea.

In 4 we got costumes of Inking, K. Rool, Chrom, Daisy, and Isabelle.

This is indeed true! It probably goes without saying that there are gonna be newcomers next game who got a similar treatment in Ultimate.

 

[MasterCheef]

would someone please get me video link for all changes in Hewdraw Remix ? It looks Amazing and Nintendo should hire them. thanks

 

[Quillion]

What about using the Y button for "strong tilts", attacks that are stronger than tilts but weaker than Smashes? You'd be able to translate them into aerial attacks to. For example, Fox's D Air is how he'd regular do aerial Down A, but a more powerful version of Falco's D Air is aerial Down Y. And you can apply this to Specials too. In general, Super Specials seem like a great idea.

That would be sort of akin to the weak, medium, strong system that many Street Fighter-school fighters use.

Still, I've always seen Jabs to be akin to weak, tilts to be akin to medium, and Smashes to be akin to strong. With that in mind, strong tilts would be akin to a four-strength system, which would be pretty awkward (and that's considering how I think A-Stick Smash is awkward).

 

[Ivander]

This is indeed true! It probably goes without saying that there are gonna be newcomers next game who got a similar treatment in Ultimate.

looks at Sans, Isaac, Zero, Monster Hunter, Bomberman, Lloyd, Dragonborn, Dante, Shantae, Altair, Cuphead and Doomslayer

 

[DarthEnderX]

Nah, keep this rule unbroken. None of this breaking limits. We broken from just Nintendo and that already cause enough nonsense. Let's keep it strictly gaming, just having adaptation.

The only exception to this rule that I will accept is a Captain N Mii Gunner costume.

 

[dream1ng]

I wouldn't mind if that rule stays put honestly.

But with Video Games starting to become a cause of adaptation displacement like movies are now, I can't help but think that Smash might break that pattern by pure accident. They might not have the resources to do the research to go to the very beginning.

Yeah, Google's a thing and that makes ignorance a choice, but people still choose ignorance regardless.

The sentient encyclopedia who can list game devs by their birth year, plays hundreds, literally hundreds of games per year and directs this series isn't going to fall prey to oversight of not knowing a video series didn't start as a video game series. Let alone have that progress all the way to a finished character.

I don't even know to whom that would apply. Even the biggest possible culprit, presumably the Witcher, is by now known by many as something that began as novels. Who else would even be both a plausible Smash candidate and fit "big gaming character that surprisingly isn't actually a gaming character?".

This is indeed true! It probably goes without saying that there are gonna be newcomers next game who got a similar treatment in Ultimate.

I certainly hope (and expect) so. There's a wealth of good choices from the costumes. Probably even two games' worth of newcomers.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I wouldn't mind if that rule stays put honestly.

But with Video Games starting to become a cause of adaptation displacement like movies are now, I can't help but think that Smash might break that pattern by pure accident. They might not have the resources to do the research to go to the very beginning.

Yeah, Google's a thing and that makes ignorance a choice, but people still choose ignorance regardless.

Doubt Sakurai and his negotiating department are that careless and absent-minded

looks at Sans, Isaac, Zero, Monster Hunter, Bomberman, Lloyd, Dragonborn, Dante, Shantae, Altair, Cuphead and Doomslayer

Wouldn't Sans, Bomberman, Shantae or Cuphead.

We need more cartoony mascot like characters in Smash than just anime ones

 

[Quillion]

The sentient encyclopedia who can list game devs by their birth year, plays hundreds, literally hundreds of games per year and directs this series isn't going to fall prey to oversight of not knowing a video series didn't start as a video game series. Let alone have that progress all the way to a finished character.

I don't even know to whom that would apply. Even the biggest possible culprit, presumably the Witcher, is by now known by many as something that began as novels. Who else would even be both a plausible Smash candidate and fit "big gaming character that surprisingly isn't actually a gaming character?".

Touché. But as information spreads rapidly, so can misinformation.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

looks at Sans, Isaac, Zero, Monster Hunter, Bomberman, Lloyd, Dragonborn, Dante, Shantae, Altair, Cuphead and Doomslayer

The **** is this for?

These newcomers sound amazing.

 

[dream1ng]

The **** is this for?

These newcomers sound amazing.

I just assumed it was sarcastic since literally every one of those characters would be an incredibly solid choice.

I hope I didn't give the post too much credit, lol.

 

[HyperSomari64]

But only with the caveat that a video game adaptation has overshadowed its source to the point that it has become the NEW source material for subsequent adaptations like The Witcher or Turok.

What about the characters like Android 21 or Oogtar?
Are those on that "grey area" in the spectrum between gaming and other media?

 

[Perkilator]

What about the characters like Android 21 or Oogtar?
Are those on that "grey area" in the spectrum between gaming and other media?

Android 21 was still a character created for a franchise that didn't start as a vidoe game, and Oogtar...we don't talk about Oogtar.

 

[Ivander]

The **** is this for?

These newcomers sound amazing.

Sarcasm? Or that cliche about when somebody is talking about stuff happening, another person starts making alot of suggestions of really good things that could happen and then after a pause, both go, "Naaaah."

I didn't think me naming a bunch of newcomers that would sound great for the next Smash game then going "Naaaah" would make me sound so serious.

 

[Quillion]

What about the characters like Android 21 or Oogtar?
Are those on that "grey area" in the spectrum between gaming and other media?

None of the games 21 or Vomi have been in have overshadowed Dragon Ball as a manga or anime, so she's a no.

Being generous to Oogtar, he probably has a chance on being Nintendo owned... but I'm not counting on it since Nintendo shows all signs of keeping the DiC cartoons buried.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Sarcasm? Or that cliche about when somebody is talking about stuff happening, another person starts making alot of suggestions of really good things that could happen and then after a pause, both go, "Naaaah."

I didn't think me naming a bunch of newcomers that would sound great for the next Smash game then going "Naaaah" would make me sound so serious.

But Ivander.

Video games are...

Serious business.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I don't want to put political themes in this thread, but can the Dendy's elephant join Smash?

Fot those who don't know he's the mascot from a taiwanese line of bootleg copies of the Famicom, and they were very popular in the slavic territories of Europe.

 

[Quillion]

I don't want to put political themes in this thread, but can the Dendy's elephant join Smash?
View attachment 356331
Fot those who don't know he's the mascot from a taiwanese line of bootleg copies of the Famicom, and they were very popular in the slavic territories of Europe.

Overshadowing the source solely in certain regions is an interesting challenge.

Given Smash's Japanese provincialism, I'd only count on video game adaptations that have overshadowed the source only in Japan.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Android 21 was still a character created for a franchise that didn't start as a vidoe game, and Oogtar...we don't talk about Oogtar.

This reminds of this one list I saw of all the Mario characters that still aren't playable in Mario Kart, and it had a whole section dedicated to non-video game characters...

I don't want to put political themes in this thread, but can the Dendy's elephant join Smash?
View attachment 356331
Fot those who don't know he's the mascot from a taiwanese line of bootleg copies of the Famicom, and they were very popular in the slavic territories of Europe.

Firstly, ew that face.

Secondly, do we... even know who owns him? Because I feel we should get that out of the way first.

 

[silenthunder]

There are plenty of real video game characters to fill the next smash with. Not even all of the characters we talk about the most will probably get it. I don't want all of the rules to be broken because it will change what smash represents.

 

[Quillion]

There are plenty of real video game characters to fill the next smash with. Not even all of the characters we talk about the most will probably get it. I don't want all of the rules to be broken because it will change what smash represents.

There are certainly a lot of patterns I'd rather see broken first. Assist Trophies never being promoted during an installment's lifetime being #1.

 

[silenthunder]

There are certainly a lot of patterns I'd rather see broken first. Assist Trophies never being promoted during an installment's lifetime being #1.

assist trophies are there because not every character can be playable. It's more representation. Playable characters take a while to work on. Honestly maybe the next smash bros won't have assist trophies at all. The smash fan base is so toxic (not anyone here I think). Honestly being represented in smash period is an honor, but I might be alone in thinking that.

 

[Ivander]

The only exception to this rule that I will accept is a Captain N Mii Gunner costume.

I'm pretty sure you'd make an exception to any rule with a Scrooge McDuck Mii Costume that comes with the Moon theme.

 

[osby]

assist trophies are there because not every character can be playable. It's more representation. Playable characters take a while to work on. Honestly maybe the next smash bros won't have assist trophies at all. The smash fan base is so toxic (not anyone here I think). Honestly being represented in smash period is an honor, but I might be alone in thinking that.

There might be logistic problems with their development but I doubt that developers will cut such a significant content just because some terminally online people reflect their insecurities onto assist trophies. That would be punishing everyone so that a vocal minority can get less stuff.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I want the Moon Theme so badly now.

 

[silenthunder]

There might be logistic problems with their development but I doubt that developers will cut such a significant content just because some terminally online people reflect their insecurities onto assist trophies. That would be punishing everyone so that a vocal minority can get less stuff.

They could use that effort for other stuff, but I don't disagree with what you're saying

 

[Quillion]

assist trophies are there because not every character can be playable. It's more representation. Playable characters take a while to work on. Honestly maybe the next smash bros won't have assist trophies at all. The smash fan base is so toxic (not anyone here I think). Honestly being represented in smash period is an honor, but I might be alone in thinking that.

Yes, not every character can be playable. I can't see Rathalos or SNES Andross being playable.

But what should stop them from promoting an Assist to DLC during a game's lifetime other than pure tradition? A tradition that is limiting at that?

 

[silenthunder]

Yes, not every character can be playable. I can't see Rathalos or SNES Andross being playable.

But what should stop them from promoting an Assist to DLC during a game's lifetime other than pure tradition? A tradition that is limiting at that?

because why not just have them playable and represent other characters that couldn't make the cut as assist trophies. Your idea is redundant

 

[dream1ng]

assist trophies are there because not every character can be playable. It's more representation. Playable characters take a while to work on. Honestly maybe the next smash bros won't have assist trophies at all. The smash fan base is so toxic (not anyone here I think). Honestly being represented in smash period is an honor, but I might be alone in thinking that.

Yeah, some of the fanbase gets way too irate over characters showing up as ATs, thinking that somehow meant they were robbed of being playable. When again, like with costumes, if you were showing up in that capacity, it meant you weren't going to be playable anyway. At least not during that phase.

And yet, people actually act slighted that Nintendo would be so "rude" to shove a character who didn't make it in the faces of all the grieving fans. And that's just... a very unhealthy mix of entitlement and completely misinterpreting, or just not caring about, the intent behind adding the AT. It's pretty much punching a gift horse in the mouth. It's kind of wild to have seen people legitimately behave like they couldn't dare imagine Nintendo would show a character they wanted in some supporting role, like it was on Nintendo to spare them of unpleasant, subjective, personal emotion.

And that the character was even added in the first place with the intention of trying to meet fans in the middle because they couldn't add everyone was taken as even more of an insult. This fanbase sometimes, I swear.

Things are never so egregious that responding with more than disappointment to an AT deconfirmation (or costume, or spirit) is ever really warranted. Doing so is emblematic of having had your hopes way out of control. People act like Nintendo teases characters only to then pull the rug out and go "haha! Just an AT! Gotcha!", but they don't. It's just the fans reading way too much into misread signals.

And it's gotten worse too, the responses in Brawl and 4 to ATs were never so harsh.

That's enough ranting, though. Ultimately I really doubt they get rid of ATs. The faction that flies off the handle is very very much a small, annoying sliver of a small online contingent. I, personally, am looking forward to what will probably be an increase in the third-parties we see become ATs. It's always a trip seeing all the disparate IPs cross over on the battlefield. Aids the feeling of Smash as just a massive, impossible melding of worlds.