Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[dream1ng]

I think it's pretty obvious there's some sort of arrangement where the newest gen at the time will get a Pokemon. It doesn't make sense for this to be at the behest of anyone other than GF/TPC. Sakurai isn't going to be like, "of all the hundreds of choices, it obviously has to be either Incineroar or Decidueye!".

I would think that were it up to Sakurai, he'd choose a character with an existing foothold in the fandom so as to include someone who isn't in jeopardy of fading after the next gen comes out.

Every once in a while you see someone argue that Pokemon and FE aren't largely promotional-based in their additions these days, but that's being obtuse. They clearly are.

There's an outside chance the impetus partially stems from Nintendo themselves for some of this, but even though they don't operate this way for most first-party series, making that proposition questionable... it would still be promotional based, so the point would still stand.

 

[fogbadge]

But every Smash we also get Pokémon from the most recent gen released at that time.

If when you mean "recent", you mean released within a year or so of the corresponding Smash's release date or afterwards, then yes, it would go back to Fire Emblem. But I thought this argument was about all of the franchises that have rotating casts, not just Fire Emblem.

and as I’ve said I believe that is down to tpc as I feel that is reflected outside of smash where as the constant influx of fe characters isn’t

so what? Zelda has a rotating cast, most Mario games have a lot of new characters. Most games do. But no these games have different main characters every time that’s why they constantly get new characters while other games that came out around the same time are ignored. After all you can’t represent a new cast of characters with a spirit event

 

[Quillion]

and as I’ve said I believe that is down to tpc as I feel that is reflected outside of smash where as the constant influx of fe characters isn’t

If you mean that the amount of Fire Emblem characters after Robin is on Sakurai, then he HAS said when Corrin was being decided, he felt there was too many Fire Emblem characters, a feeling he repeated with Byleth.

so what? Zelda has a rotating cast, most Mario games have a lot of new characters. Most games do. But no these games have different main characters every time that’s why they constantly get new characters while other games that came out around the same time are ignored. After all you can’t represent a new cast of characters with a spirit event

That's the thing: I WANT them to treat Pokémon, Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade the same way they treat Mario and Zelda.

The former three franchises and perhaps others have accumulated so many characters that taking the "wait and see" approach would be better. There are a ton of older fan favorites that could have a chance if they took the "wait and see" approach.

 

[dream1ng]

Following the Sakurai anecdotes makes it pretty clear that he's not choosing the FE characters. With Corrin he already thought there may be too many, but was convinced to put the character in despite that. Then with Byleth he said that he commiserated with the complaints about FE characters and swordies, and said that Byleth wasn't even his first choice from Three Houses (though we don't know who was).

The order seems to come down from either IS, Nintendo, or a mix of the two.

He might've chosen Chrom though. I would imagine Nintendo doesn't really care who the first-party base game echoes were, giving Sakurai more autonomy about that kind of stuff. But the character is just a clone who got in due to popularity.

That's the thing: I WANT them to treat Pokémon, Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade the same way they treat Mario and Zelda.

The former three franchises and perhaps others have accumulated so many characters that taking the "wait and see" approach would be better. There are a ton of older fan favorites that could have a chance if they took the "wait and see" approach.

Mario, maybe. Zelda goes too far the other way. Been like 10 games since the last original character, presumably due to hesitation over dipping into the less recurring pool.

 

[SPEN18]

Nothing really forces people to stop speculating, but the perceived likelihood of getting an obligatory newgen mon can make it obnoxiously hard to push for oldgen mons. Same sort of thing for other franchises like FE.

--

I think it's pretty obvious there's some sort of arrangement where the newest gen at the time will get a Pokemon. It doesn't make sense for this to be at the behest of anyone other than GF/TPC.

There's an outside chance the impetus partially stems from Nintendo themselves for some of this, but even though they don't operate this way for most first-party series, making that proposition questionable

Hm, I think that Nintendo is the more likely source of said arrangement than GF/TPC, given that Sakurai labels Nintendo as the determining party behind Byleth rather than, like, IS. I understand GF/TPC could potentially have more draw/influence than IS, but generally I think the point stands. GF/TPC has not heavily skewed the rosters of spinoffs like Go, Snap, Pokken, Unite, etc. towards the newer gens (and while there is quite a bit of gen 1 pampering, there are also plenty of bones thrown to the other gens), so I don't see why Smash would be any different. From the Pokemon perspective, Smash is like a spinoff game in terms of marketing capability so I don't see why they'd force a newgen mon to happen every time, especially if the timing was suboptimal.

Tbh I don't even know how much GF/TPC benefits from a newgen mon in Smash since the majority of their marketing is sourced from other places; the newcomer effect I would imagine is much less significant for PKMN than it is for, say, smaller series getting their first or second rep. But of course there are magnitudes of difficulty in trying to actually measure this. I think Nintendo specifically also wants recent characters in Smash purportedly to make it take longer for the roster to feel dated (as alluded to in Sakurai's comments on Byleth), but IMO this is made a non-issue with DLC, and even before/without that the roster has enough draw from its timeless allstars to relegate any perceived datedness for quite a while after release.

 

[Quillion]

Mario, maybe. Zelda goes too far the other way. Been like 10 games since the last original character, presumably due to hesitation over dipping into the less recurring pool.

That's certainly an issue, but it still would be better if they open up solely to Zelda one-shots that have stayed popular rather than ones that are the newest.

 

[SPEN18]

I feel that is reflected outside of smash where as the constant influx of fe characters isn’t

But FE has plenty of marketing focus on the newer games, too. The Fateswakening pandering, at its height, was actually a problem IMO. And rn TH is continuing to get a lot of special treatment as well.

 

[dream1ng]

Nothing really forces people to stop speculating, but the perceived likelihood of getting an obligatory newgen mon can make it obnoxiously hard to push for oldgen mons. Same sort of thing for other franchises like FE.

Well, that's why you don't really see those kind of characters get any kind of momentum behind them, other than to some extent, Lyn.

And I'd rather have it the other way too, but that's how these series seem to function in Smash.

Hm, I think that Nintendo is the more likely source of said arrangement than GF/TPC, given that Sakurai labels Nintendo as the determining party behind Byleth rather than, like, IS. I understand GF/TPC could potentially have more draw/influence than IS, but generally I think the point stands.

I think Sakurai has been purposefully imprecise about the forces behind the selection of characters, such as when he ascribes all the DLC selections to Nintendo. I think he places the responsibility solely on them to recuse all the other relevant parties, such as himself, from scrutiny. Not that he's avoided it, but just to mitigate it a bit.

He's also spoke about how he's consulted IS and GF as to who the character from those respective series should be. Like I said, Nintendo choosing those series rather than the devs may not be my first guess, but even if it is the case, it doesn't really change things from a practical perspective, insofar as they're still promotional additions.

GF/TPC has not heavily skewed the rosters of spinoffs like Go, Snap, Pokken, Unite, etc. towards the newer gens (and while there is quite a bit of gen 1 pampering, there are also plenty of bones thrown to the other gens), so I don't see why Smash would be any different.

But Smash is different than those cases in that it's not a Pokemon game. It's a game millions of people are going to play, and many of those may not be big Pokemon fans. With most of the staples already on the roster, and with only one choice, they may want to try to direct people to the current game.

If you look at the marketing of Pokemon at any given time, the starters of the current gen usually have a pretty big focus.

From the Pokemon perspective, Smash is like a spinoff game in terms of marketing capability so I don't see why they'd force a newgen mon to happen every time, especially if the timing was suboptimal.

No it's not, it's like a game that can sell equal to the actual mainline Pokemon games and brings countless eyes to the series that normally may not gravitate towards it. Smash is its own juggernaut with large amounts of exposure potential, even for big characters.

Tbh I don't even know how much GF/TPC benefits from a newgen mon in Smash since the majority of their marketing is sourced from other places; the newcomer effect I would imagine is much less significant for PKMN than it is for, say, smaller series getting their first or second rep. But of course there are magnitudes of difficulty in trying to actually measure this.

I agree that the series that actually need promotion don't get it. They don't even end up getting included, usually. But any character that is in Smash benefits from the appearance, let alone a newcomer. It will lead to some people exploring the game. And obviously Pokemon is one of the series that least needs that, but clearly the prerogative isn't to benefit those series most in need of attention.

I think Nintendo specifically also wants recent characters in Smash purportedly to make it take longer for the roster to feel dated (as alluded to in Sakurai's comments on Byleth), but IMO this is made a non-issue with DLC, and even before/without that the roster has enough draw from its timeless allstars to relegate any perceived datedness for quite a while after release.

Including recent characters of transient spotlight is going to make the roster feel infinitely more dated than choosing characters who are just perennial favorites. Including Incineroar and Corrin dates the roster more than including choices like Gengar or Lyn would've, because those latter characters have proven to be popular enough to become regular fixtures of their series, never permanently retreating from the spotlight.

The problem of including flavor of the month characters is literally in the name. Even if they're current in the moment (which, tbh, Incineroar wasn't - the newest games were Gen 1 remakes), once the month passes, chances are... they're going to recede from prominence. Look at the relic that is Sheik.

That's certainly an issue, but it still would be better if they open up solely to Zelda one-shots that have stayed popular rather than ones that are the newest.

I agree. I don't know how it will play out once Zelda does get a new character, but I agree. I think you go with a character like Impa, Skull Kid or Midna rather than just whichever new faces shows up next.

 

[Arcanir]

And I'm going to add to my last post that Pokemon also prioritizes older mons in rosters for spinoffs like Pokken or Unite. Those rosters are actually fairly balanced across all gens, which even stands in contrast to something like the first FE Warriors, whose roster was almost exclusively Archanea and Fateswakening.

Unite is not balanced, not even fairly. Ignoring leaks Gen 1 has the most at 11 while the rest are in the single digits with Gen 6 being the next closest at 7. To make it worse, three of the generations have three or less Pokemon to them with Gen 5 being stuck at one since launch. Even Pokken is pretty skewered as Gen 5 and 7 were stuck at one while Gen 1 and 4 had six.

Granted, Unite is a game that will constantly be updated, but its current roster is not balanced across generations. There's still a notable leaning towards certain generations over others.

 

[SPEN18]

Well, that's why you don't really see those kind of characters get any kind of momentum behind them, other than to some extent, Lyn.

And I'd rather have it the other way too, but that's how these series seem to function in Smash.

Yeah, it's a jungle trying to push for change on this front. But I'm here to do it!

I think Sakurai has been purposefully imprecise about the forces behind the selection of characters, such as when he ascribes all the DLC selections to Nintendo. I think he places the responsibility solely on them to recuse all the other relevant parties, such as himself, from scrutiny. Not that he's avoided it, but just to mitigate it a bit.

He's also spoke about how he's consulted IS and GF as to who the character from those respective series should be. Like I said, Nintendo choosing those series rather than the devs may not be my first guess, but even if it is the case, it doesn't really change things from a practical perspective, insofar as they're still promotional additions.

Yes, in the end we don't have hard confirmation of the extent to which each party involved is responsible for these patterns with PKMN, FE, Zelda, and such. If it continues to happen with more series like Xenoblade, though, then it might be even more fair to claim it is Nintendo rather than the likes of GF/TPC/IS/Monolith since it's unlikely that the latter orgs would all have the same philosophy on the matter. In any case, though, I have a hard time picturing TPC flat-out saying no to adding an oldgen mon or IS denying Lyn if that's who the roster deciders asked for.
And, right, the picks have still been largely promotional whether TPC is the reason for it or not.

But Smash is different than those cases in that it's not a Pokemon game. It's a game millions of people are going to play, and many of those may not be big Pokemon fans. With most of the staples already on the roster, and with only one choice, they may want to try to direct people to the current game.

If you look at the marketing of Pokemon at any given time, the starters of the current gen usually have a pretty big focus.

No it's not, it's like a game that can sell equal to the actual mainline Pokemon games and brings countless eyes to the series that normally may not gravitate towards it. Smash is its own juggernaut with large amounts of exposure potential, even for big characters.

True, Smash is bigger than and reaches a different audience than most PKMN spinoffs, though a few things like GO are comparable in visibility and also reach outside of the traditional PKMN consumer bubble. It's still a spinoff for practical purposes of PKMN marketing, though, albeit a higher-profile one than most. The "one choice" argument is fair, though dampened a bit by the fact that plenty of oldgen mons are available to catch in the newer games (and some of them like the Zubat line, Gastly line, Ralts line, etc. are available very often, even too often if you go according to some fans).
In the end, it's easy to argue that they might prefer a newgen mon, for various reasons like the ones you listed. But a handful of mons making a non-mainline-PKMN appearance, even one as big as Smash, is not going to change the game that much for them either way, I don't think. Especially if the alternative is making highly popular picks that are constantly relevant and marketable in their own ways. In any case I don't think the difference is enough that GF/TPC would stop the Smash devs from adding an older mon, which leads me to believe the issue is more on the Smash devs' end than GF's/TPC's.
And it still stands that TPC didn't manhandle the Pokken and Unite rosters into including almost exclusively gen 1 and newgen mons, like how the first FE Warriors was almost all Fateswakening and Archanea.

Including recent characters of transient spotlight is going to make the roster feel infinitely more dated than choosing characters who are just perennial favorites. Including Incineroar and Corrin dates the roster more than including choices like Gengar or Lyn would've, because those latter characters have proven to be popular enough to become regular fixtures of their series, never permanently retreating from the spotlight.

The problem of including flavor of the month characters is literally in the name. Even if they're current in the moment (which, tbh, Incineroar wasn't - the newest games were Gen 1 remakes), once the month passes, chances are... they're going to recede from prominence. Look at the relic that is Sheik.

Totally agree.

Unite is not balanced, not even fairly. Ignoring leaks Gen 1 has the most at 11 while the rest are in the single digits with Gen 6 being the next closest at 7. To make it worse, three of the generations have three or less Pokemon to them with Gen 5 being stuck at one since launch. Even Pokken is pretty skewered as Gen 5 and 7 were stuck at one while Gen 1 and 4 had six.

Granted, Unite is a game that will constantly be updated, but its current roster is not balanced across generations. There's still a notable leaning towards certain generations over others.

I'll admit that I was going off the top of my head when making that post. But those rosters being perfectly balanced across all gens wasn't really the point. They still make a clear effort to include oldgen mons, especially perennial faves like the triple G's (Gengar, Garchomp, Gardevoir), alongside the usual newgen pamperings. If anything, it's telling that (by your numbers) gen 4 got favoritism in Pokken and gen 6 got favoritism in Unite when those weren't the most recent gens at the times that those games were released.

 

[Arcanir]

I'll admit that I was going off the top of my head when making that post. But those rosters being perfectly balanced across all gens wasn't really the point. They still make a clear effort to include oldgen mons, especially perennial faves like the triple G's (Gengar, Garchomp, Gardevoir), alongside the usual newgen pamperings. If anything, it's telling that (by your numbers) gen 4 got favoritism in Pokken and gen 6 got favoritism in Unite when those weren't the most recent gens at the times that those games were released.

I think the important thing to consider for this is that those examples are still spinoffs of one series, so they have more of an opportunity to have those old favorites like Garchomp or Gardevoir. Smash is not dipping into one series, but many as it's a crossover, and while you can make the argument against picking exclusively new Pokemon you're not going to get a slew of old favorites either. With how many options there are available from multiple series they have to choose and spread their options across multiple franchises to grab the largest audience, and you can really only afford a couple slots at best for Pokemon without it being imbalanced.

Additionally, even if we were allowed multiple slots there's no guarantee they'd fill it in a way that fans would consider satisfactory. You mentioned that Gen 4 and 6 got favoritism in those respective games and that is true, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that the others were left with one or two leaving them barely represented among their respective rosters. Continuing from that, there are a number of favorites that didn't make it into Pokken and haven't made it into Unite yet. Greninja is an excellent example for the former as it was proven to be an extremely popular Pokemon by the time DX was likely in development, yet it wasn't even added for DLC of that game. Even in the scenario Smash favored giving old gen mons attention there would still be lopsided choices and the choices they make may leave out favorites that people would prefer. So we aren't guaranteed to get those like say, the 'triple G's' as that's just not how things play out.

 

[SPEN18]

I think the important thing to consider for this is that those examples are still spinoffs of one series, so they have more of an opportunity to have those old favorites like Garchomp or Gardevoir. Smash is not dipping into one series, but many as it's a crossover, and while you can make the argument against picking exclusively new Pokemon you're not going to get a slew of old favorites either. With how many options there are available from multiple series they have to choose and spread their options across multiple franchises to grab the largest audience, and you can really only afford a couple slots at best for Pokemon without it being imbalanced.

Additionally, even if we were allowed multiple slots there's no guarantee they'd fill it in a way that fans would consider satisfactory. You mentioned that Gen 4 and 6 got favoritism in those respective games and that is true, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that the others were left with one or two leaving them barely represented among their respective rosters. Continuing from that, there are a number of favorites that didn't make it into Pokken and haven't made it into Unite yet. Greninja is an excellent example for the former as it was proven to be an extremely popular Pokemon by the time DX was likely in development, yet it wasn't even added for DLC of that game. Even in the scenario Smash favored giving old gen mons attention there would still be lopsided choices and the choices they make may leave out favorites that people would prefer. So we aren't guaranteed to get those like say, the 'triple G's' as that's just not how things play out.

I mean, we have ten mons in Smash right now, which is not as many as there are in the rosters of Pokken or Unite but still enough to justify a few oldgen faves. And, no, with so many popular mons you're not going to please everybody, but you simply do the best you can with what you have. The current system I find to be suboptimal in that respect, and unlikely to generate optimal results going forward.
Let me also be clear that I'm not arguing for perfect balance between all the gens. I am not advocating that, say, we get 9 reps for PKMN and exactly one from each gen. That wouldn't be good, either, since Kanto would get multiple reps and for some gens like 5 it is debatable if they should really get one in the current roster size.
No, I'm not asking for perfect balance because some gens might have higher-tier or simply a greater number of options than others, and that's okay. It's the mons themselves getting selected on their own merits, not filling quotas. But what I do ask is that mons from all gens have the potential to be chosen if they have proven to be among the most consistently iconic, relevant, marketable, etc. over time. Yes, it is incredibly hard and subjective to actually rank them perfectly, and you're not going to be able to include every single such mon that might be justifiable in a given roster size, but it is quite frankly boring and unhealthy to narrow it down by just automatically relapsing to solely newgen mons. That's not a fair resolution to a difficult problem, IMO; at least give everybody a fair shake.
While the pessimism of not being able to please everybody is one way to look at it, the other way to look at it is that there are very many authentically good and justifiable options, which makes it even more baffling that they have just opted to exclude all of them instead of just some of them.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

that Byleth wasn't even his first choice from Three Houses (though we don't know who was).

Do we have a source on this?

 

[dream1ng]

Do we have a source on this?

For character selection, a character he liked wasn't given preference. Nintendo had chosen the characters. He worked with the character when Three Houses was still under development. pic.twitter.com/U0MVML3ubH

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) February 5, 2020

Before I found this again, I went back and looked at other translations of the Famitsu article, and now I think this one isn't actually translated well. The implication, given the Byleth context, is that there was another, favored character from 3H (or at least FE).

I think a less misleading translation is actually that Sakurai is simply restating that he doesn't pick his favorite characters, Nintendo makes the choices.

 

[fogbadge]

see this is my problem with the idea of them being promotional, cause what sense does it make for it to be FE where there a bigger games from around the same time. think about the scenario that apparently suggests someone at nintendo goes "hmm what games to we have coming out this year that we can promote in smash, well there's super mario maker 2 from our flagship series, theres that link's awakening remake we're making a fair bit of fuss about, pokemon sword and shield they're sure to sell loads and of course luigi's mansion 3 people love those. and then there's those new ips we have that could do with a boost, astral chain from platinum people are very fond of those games, ring fit adventure the spiritual successor to wii fit that pretty much printed money for us. oh i know let's go for a character from that series that while it is critically acclaimed is still to this day out sold by nintendogs"

of course sakurai is sick of adding in fire emblem that's why he so passionate about it in his byleth video. and after all its not like he ever contradicts himself
"cant include ayumi she's japan only. here's marth"
"you're right there's too many sword fighters. have steve sephiroth pyra and mythra."
"characters need personality so have several blank avatars who's only personality is what you all project on to them"

 

[Diddy Kong]

That's certainly an issue, but it still would be better if they open up solely to Zelda one-shots that have stayed popular rather than ones that are the newest.

Or, you know, just go with characters that have been around since the start and still appear in just about every other game, as Impa and Ganon.

 

[Dinoman96]

"cant include ayumi she's japan only. here's marth"

Except we also know that Marth and Roy were originally gonna be purged from western versions of Melee for that exact reason lol. Likewise we know that Sakurai wouldn't of included Lucas in Brawl had he known Mother 3 wasn't being localized at the time.

 

[fogbadge]

Except we also know that Marth and Roy were originally gonna be purged from western versions of Melee for that exact reason lol. Likewise we know that Sakurai wouldn't of included Lucas in Brawl had he known Mother 3 wasn't being localized at the time.

but there was another character who didn’t get included at all because they were Japan only

 

[Dinoman96]

but there was another character who didn’t get included at all because they were Japan only

The point is that Marth, Roy and Lucas were all happy accidents that probably won't be repeated anytime soon.

 

[fogbadge]

The point is that Marth, Roy and Lucas were all happy accidents that probably won't be repeated anytime soon.

marth and Roy weren’t accidents. He wanted to included marth in the original and was looking for someone to clone him
The got included in the western version cause fans took to them in a demo

and of course it’s not gonna happen again. We’re at the point where games are kept Japan only cause they didn’t d badly which makes them unlikely for smash anyway. We’re long past the day where they don’t release games cause they think they’re too Japanese

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Realistically at this point, is there a prominent first party franchise that isn't coming out in both the West and Japan besides (the future hypothetical release of) Advance Wars? Some niche stuff I'm sure, but it feels like regional exclusives by Nintendo has largely fallen by the wayside. When even Famicom Detective Club is popping up in American Directs that feels like a telling sign of where things are.

 

[Quillion]

see this is my problem with the idea of them being promotional, cause what sense does it make for it to be FE where there a bigger games from around the same time. think about the scenario that apparently suggests someone at nintendo goes "hmm what games to we have coming out this year that we can promote in smash, well there's super mario maker 2 from our flagship series, theres that link's awakening remake we're making a fair bit of fuss about, pokemon sword and shield they're sure to sell loads and of course luigi's mansion 3 people love those. and then there's those new ips we have that could do with a boost, astral chain from platinum people are very fond of those games, ring fit adventure the spiritual successor to wii fit that pretty much printed money for us. oh i know let's go for a character from that series that while it is critically acclaimed is still to this day out sold by nintendogs"

Pretty much everyone in Mario Maker and Link's Awakening is already in Smash.

Astral Chain and Ring Fit is probably in the "wait and see" category. They prefer characters from franchises with histories after all.

Pokémon and Luigi's Mansion could have a chance, but the latter is fairly new as a spin-off series (it only got a sequel over a decade after its original release). That leaves Pokémon as the best potential alternative, but Fire Emblem just benefited from the best timing.

of course sakurai is sick of adding in fire emblem that's why he so passionate about it in his byleth video. and after all its not like he ever contradicts himself
"cant include ayumi she's japan only. here's marth"
"you're right there's too many sword fighters. have steve sephiroth pyra and mythra."
"characters need personality so have several blank avatars who's only personality is what you all project on to them"

Sakurai is passionate about his work to the point where he assumes every Smash game is his last. That alone doesn't say anything about how hypocritical he is.

but there was another character who didn’t get included at all because they were Japan only

Speculating here, but there might've been other factors in Ayumi not getting past consideration (her overall obscurity only being the main reason). He might not see any moveset potential in her considering she's a VN character, and there's no push for his team to "try again" like what happened with Villager, Pac-Man, and Ridley.

 

[fogbadge]

Pretty much everyone in Mario Maker and Link's Awakening is already in Smash.

Astral Chain and Ring Fit is probably in the "wait and see" category. They prefer characters from franchises with histories after all.

Pokémon and Luigi's Mansion could have a chance, but the latter is fairly new as a spin-off series (it only got a sequel over a decade after its original release). That leaves Pokémon as the best potential alternative, but Fire Emblem just benefited from the best timing.



Sakurai is passionate about his work to the point where he assumes every Smash game is his last. That alone doesn't say anything about how hypocritical he is.



Speculating here, but there might've been other factors in Ayumi not getting past consideration (her overall obscurity only being the main reason). He might not see any moveset potential in her considering she's a VN character, and there's no push for his team to "try again" like what happened with Villager, Pac-Man, and Ridley.

well that’s not true at all. Mario maker is full of original characters who don’t even have spirits and more importantly playable toad and toadette. And link is the only character from link’s awakening in smash.

granted but they still went for a character who’s game was still in development that they no way of knowing how it would

that timing thing is pure speculation.

yeah but he shows more passion towards certain things than others. Look how giddy he was with terry

sure but when you’re holding up sakurais word as law it will come across as a bit odd if you start speculating over just the one thing

 

[Quillion]

well that’s not true at all. Mario maker is full of original characters who don’t even have spirits and more importantly playable toad and toadette. And link is the only character from link’s awakening in smash.

And they're all characters that sit around and help you along. Makes it rather difficult to justify turning them into fighters.

granted but they still went for a character who’s game was still in development that they no way of knowing how it would

You mean Roy? That franchise was entering its sixth game at the time.

that timing thing is pure speculation.

I'll give you that.

yeah but he shows more passion towards certain things than others. Look how giddy he was with terry

So? He direct passion into things he was forced into making. He's one of the few artists who genuinely wants business and art to collaborate instead of be at odds with one another.

sure but when you’re holding up sakurais word as law it will come across as a bit odd if you start speculating over just the one thing

There are a few things I do see Sakurai as being hypocritical about, like his insistence on Smash being more accessible when many of the newer characters are anything but in terms of gameplay.

But you keep trying to insist that it's all up to Sakurai to put in all those Fire Emblem characters and that Nintendo has no reason to use Smash to promote Fire Emblem. But in reality, much like TPC, Smash indeed IS part of a larger marketing push. Fire Emblem has accumulated a lot of spin-offs in the relatively short time after Awakening: TMSFE, Warriors, Warriors: 3H, Heroes, and then there's Fire Emblem making guest appearances in Tetris 99 and the original Shadow Dragon for NES being localized before Mother 3.

Everything does indeed line up with how, starting with Corrin, Sakurai has reached his limit with how many Fire Emblem characters he wants in and Nintendo is making him go beyond.

 

[fogbadge]

And they're all characters that sit around and help you along. Makes it rather difficult to justify turning them into fighters.



You mean Roy? That franchise was entering its sixth game at the time.



I'll give you that.



So? He direct passion into things he was forced into making. He's one of the few artists who genuinely wants business and art to collaborate instead of be at odds with one another.



There are a few things I do see Sakurai as being hypocritical about, like his insistence on Smash being more accessible when many of the newer characters are anything but in terms of gameplay.

But you keep trying to insist that it's all up to Sakurai to put in all those Fire Emblem characters and that Nintendo has no reason to use Smash to promote Fire Emblem. But in reality, much like TPC, Smash indeed IS part of a larger marketing push. Fire Emblem has accumulated a lot of spin-offs in the relatively short time after Awakening: TMSFE, Warriors, Warriors: 3H, Heroes, and then there's Fire Emblem making guest appearances in Tetris 99 and the original Shadow Dragon for NES being localized before Mother 3.

Everything does indeed line up with how, starting with Corrin, Sakurai has reached his limit with how many Fire Emblem characters he wants in and Nintendo is making him go beyond.

like Isabelle

no I mean byleth. They had no way of knowing 3 houses was to be a success

when has it ever been proven he’s been forced into anything?

well first of all FE only gets special treatment in smash. Outside of smash it gets no more than any other series. Shadow dragon got localised over mother 3 cause they had brought fe to the market and it worked which didn’t happen for earthbound.

no because Nintendo have only been in charge of ultimates dlc. And even then he can clearly still say no as he did to Rex. He could have said no to his team telling him to use corrin and he could have left chrom out like all the other popular characters he’s left out

 

[Quillion]

like Isabelle

Isabelle was a main character of AC by that point, and even then they had to re-use a lot of elements from Villager to make her work.

Can't say giving Undodog some of Mario's moves or Marin Link's moves will work anywhere as well.

when has it ever been proven he’s been forced into anything?

I know you see Sakurai as being a hypocrite to support Fire Emblem but this is getting ridiculous.

If you mean that the amount of Fire Emblem characters after Robin is on Sakurai, then he HAS said when Corrin was being decided, he felt there was too many Fire Emblem characters, a feeling he repeated with Byleth.

well first of all FE only gets special treatment in smash. Outside of smash it gets no more than any other series. Shadow dragon got localised over mother 3 cause they had brought fe to the market and it worked which didn’t happen for earthbound.

Probably because Fire Emblem is still ongoing while Mother ended a long time ago. And why are you saying that Fire Emblem gets no more preference than any other series despite the list of spin-offs after Awakening? Xenoblade's a similar rising star with NO spin-offs as of yet.

no because Nintendo have only been in charge of ultimates dlc. And even then he can clearly still say no as he did to Rex. He could have said no to his team telling him to use corrin and he could have left chrom out like all the other popular characters he’s left out

He only said no to Rex out of technical issues; he thought Rex w/ Pythra could be fun, but technology got in the way.

Frankly, fogbadge , you're giving me reason to think you're only believing what you want to believe. You talk down on everyone for speculating yet your view on Sakurai's pro-Fire Emblem hypocrisy is largely driven by speculation, and when we present facts to back up our own speculation, you shoot them down with "clearly they don't count because 'baseless speculation'".

If you're gonna speculate, you better give it a base.

 

[Diddy Kong]

marth and Roy weren’t accidents. He wanted to included marth in the original and was looking for someone to clone him
The got included in the western version cause fans took to them in a demo

and of course it’s not gonna happen again. We’re at the point where games are kept Japan only cause they didn’t d badly which makes them unlikely for smash anyway. We’re long past the day where they don’t release games cause they think they’re too Japanese

To be honest, Roy's game FE6 was intended for international release, but they withheld it for FE7 because FE6's difficulty proved too much for new players. Normal difficulty in FE6 is harder than FE7's Hard difficulty (safe for Hector's route). You can check it out yourself cause Roy's Melee trophy says "future release".

 

[Quillion]

To be honest, Roy's game FE6 was intended for international release, but they withheld it for FE7 because FE6's difficulty proved too much for new players. Normal difficulty in FE6 is harder than FE7's Hard difficulty (safe for Hector's route). You can check it out yourself cause Roy's Melee trophy says "future release".

Was it really? I can't find a source on that.

All accounts state that FE7 was only brought over because of Marth and Roy's popularity in Melee.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Was it really? I can't find a source on that.

All accounts state that FE7 was only brought over because of Marth and Roy's popularity in Melee.

I mean, it was probably because of a mix of Melee and the first GBA Advance Wars Game doing surprisingly well over here that got us Fire Emblem, but neat fact about Roy I guess.

 

[fogbadge]

Isabelle was a main character of AC by that point, and even then they had to re-use a lot of elements from Villager to make her work.

like toad and toadette are

Can't say giving Undodog some of Mario's moves or Marin Link's moves will work anywhere as well.

if you can't see undog with a maker themed moveset or marin with a warrior based moveset then you have a limited imagination

I know you see Sakurai as being a hypocrite to support Fire Emblem but this is getting ridiculous.

i can't help but notice you haven't provided proof

Probably because Fire Emblem is still ongoing while Mother ended a long time ago. And why are you saying that Fire Emblem gets no more preference than any other series despite the list of spin-offs after Awakening? Xenoblade's a similar rising star with NO spin-offs as of yet.

does it get more than zelda? animal crossing? kirby? no. does it get more than them in smash? yes

He only said no to Rex out of technical issues; he thought Rex w/ Pythra could be fun, but technology got in the way.

he then said he considered having rex as a solo character

Frankly, fogbadge , you're giving me reason to think you're only believing what you want to believe. You talk down on everyone for speculating yet your view on Sakurai's pro-Fire Emblem hypocrisy is largely driven by speculation, and when we present facts to back up our own speculation, you shoot them down with "clearly they don't count because 'baseless speculation'".

this coming from the user who cannae tell the difference between greninja and shiek? get lost you do nothing but baseless speculation like your claim that the switch fans don't so philosophy

If you're gonna speculate, you better give it a base.

hypocrite

 

[Quillion]

like toad and toadette are

I guess Toad could work as a character, but I make it no secret that I would prefer Captain Toad himself over any other Toad.

if you can't see undog with a maker themed moveset or marin with a warrior based moveset then you have a limited imagination

Those could work in Smash sure. Not really counting on it since the Maker/Paint helpers are exclusive to a spin-off and the third Mario "secondary" series after Land and NSMB.

i can't help but notice you haven't provided proof

The hell do you think these citations in this quote are?

If you mean that the amount of Fire Emblem characters after Robin is on Sakurai, then he HAS said when Corrin was being decided, he felt there was too many Fire Emblem characters, a feeling he repeated with Byleth.

does it get more than zelda? animal crossing? kirby? no. does it get more than them in smash? yes

Zelda and Kirby were popular right off the bat, so it's natural that they would have more spin-offs than Fire Emblem.

But Animal Crossing only really took off in popularity with New Leaf, on the same platform as Awakening. After which it has accumulated four spin-offs, same as Fire Emblem after Awakening.

he then said he considered having rex as a solo character

Having a hard time finding Sakurai considering Rex alone. Considering his statement about making newer sword users as unique as possible, it's likely that he felt Rex solo wouldn't be quite as fun without the Pyra/Mythra switch.

this coming from the user who cannae tell the difference between greninja and shiek? get lost you do nothing but baseless speculation like your claim that the switch fans don't so philosophy

hypocrite

Do you feel in charge? And this gives you power over me?

Yeah, I see Greninja/Sheik and Palutena/Zelda as redundant in a series famous for unique characters. So what?

And if you're going to bring up topics I've said in the past, I WILL do the same with you, as hypocritical as it is:

id say hypocrisy is one of the most human things there is.

 

[fogbadge]

I guess Toad could work as a character, but I make it no secret that I would prefer Captain Toad himself over any other Toad.

your preferences aren’t what we’re talking about

Those could work in Smash sure. Not really counting on it since the Maker/Paint helpers are exclusive to a spin-off and the third Mario "secondary" series after Land and NSMB.

Mario kart is the top spin off. When was the last time you saw a Mario land game?

The hell do you think these citations in this quote are?

Sakurai caving into peer pressure from his team. And considering how easily to say no to other things probably quite willingly

Zelda and Kirby were popular right off the bat, so it's natural that they would have more spin-offs than Fire Emblem.

But Animal Crossing only really took off in popularity with New Leaf, on the same platform as Awakening. After which it has accumulated four spin-offs, same as Fire Emblem after Awakening.

animal crossing has always been popular. AC has done more with less when compared to


Having a hard time finding Sakurai considering Rex alone. Considering his statement about making newer sword users as unique as possible, it's likely that he felt Rex solo wouldn't be quite as fun without the Pyra/Mythra switch.
[/quote]

You’ll find it in the news archives of this website. Rex would function the same as pyra mythra the only difference is preference

Do you feel in charge? And this gives you power over me?

And now you’re accusing me of psychological games?

Yeah, I see Greninja/Sheik and Palutena/Zelda as redundant in a series famous for unique characters. So what?

because it a baseless nonsense which is exactly what you’re accusing me of. Therefore you are a hypocrite

And if you're going to bring up topics I've said in the past, I WILL do the same with you, as hypocritical as it is:

The thing in the other thread was more of your baseless conjecture

 

[Opossum]

see this is my problem with the idea of them being promotional, cause what sense does it make for it to be FE where there a bigger games from around the same time. think about the scenario that apparently suggests someone at nintendo goes "hmm what games to we have coming out this year that we can promote in smash, well there's super mario maker 2 from our flagship series, theres that link's awakening remake we're making a fair bit of fuss about, pokemon sword and shield they're sure to sell loads and of course luigi's mansion 3 people love those. and then there's those new ips we have that could do with a boost, astral chain from platinum people are very fond of those games, ring fit adventure the spiritual successor to wii fit that pretty much printed money for us. oh i know let's go for a character from that series that while it is critically acclaimed is still to this day out sold by nintendogs"

of course sakurai is sick of adding in fire emblem that's why he so passionate about it in his byleth video. and after all its not like he ever contradicts himself
"cant include ayumi she's japan only. here's marth"
"you're right there's too many sword fighters. have steve sephiroth pyra and mythra."
"characters need personality so have several blank avatars who's only personality is what you all project on to them"

Claiming it's contradictory to leave out Ayumi but keep Marth and Roy is purposefully leaving out a ton of context.

Ayumi was being considered as the retro throwback character. If she were included in Melee, she'd have already been on the obscure side for Japan, but also a complete unknown outside of it. Famicom Detective Club was well regarded in Japan, but it was still, at the time, a dead franchise.

Fire Emblem, on the other hand, was even at the time too big to ignore for Japan. It was still getting games, with a sixth on the way. To put that into perspective, by the time of Melee's development I'm pretty sure Zelda only had six (the original, Zelda 2, Link's Awakening, A Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask). Marth was one of the single most requested Melee characters in Japan, and Mystery of the Emblem was a flagship SNES title there, having sold 750,000 copies despite being exclusive to Japan.

And despite ALL of that, Marth and Roy were meant to be removed from international versions of Melee. Ayumi was, by comparison, small potatoes. Barring Fire Emblem from Melee would've been seen in Japan as equivalent to leaving the Inklings out of Ultimate, whereas Ayumi was outprioritized for her slot by international characters of a similar proverbial weight class. There's no contradiction here. Fire Emblem was an incredibly special case when it came to Japan-only franchises, and now that we're well past the era of Nintendo games not getting localized, there will likely never be a case like it again, wherein we get characters that never left Japan.

Like, it's pretty telling that the latest semi-major Japan-only Nintendo release I can think of is Zangeki no Reginleiv, and that was during the Wii era.

 

[Quillion]

I guess Toad could work as a character, but I make it no secret that I would prefer Captain Toad himself over any other Toad.

Mario kart is the top spin off. When was the last time you saw a Mario land game?

IDRGAF about this part of the argument anymore.

Sakurai caving into peer pressure from his team. And considering how easily to say no to other things probably quite willingly

If you think it's just his team at Sora Ltd., then you're mistaken:

After internal analysis, we decided that if we’re going to make DLC, we would choose a character from a soon-to-be-released new game. After consulting many times with Nintendo and looking at the upcoming release schedule, Fire Emblem Fates was in just the right spot. It’s already been released in Japan, but is yet to be released overseas, making it a prime candidate in terms of timing. I personally felt that having too many Fire Emblem characters was a problem, but after talking it over with the development staff and discussing logistics, I felt certain that I could make them a fun character.

Source for above.

Sakurai: There are too many Fire Emblem characters! The decision to include Corrin was admittedly strategic, but I genuinely worried we might be adding too many characters from the series. That said, once the FE Fates developers shared their idea with me, I knew I could make Corrin into an interesting fighter. Their unique characteristic in Smash is their incredible reach, attacking from further away than anyone else. Even in the midst of a heated melee, Corrin can poke with their lance from afar and pierce opponents. They can transform one part of their body and extend it to hit opponents. I guess you could say they’re like Dhalsim… Well, maybe not quite (laughs).

Source for above.

On January 16th I announced Byleth – Fire Emblem: Three Houses’ protagonist – as the newest DLC fighter for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. This week, I’d like to delve into how the character was developed. As for Byleth as a fighter, well, there’s already a presentation that goes into pretty minute detail about it, so please give that a watch!

My preferences don’t play a role in which new fighters are added; Nintendo has a larger say in that decision and brings their thoughts to the table. At any rate, the “theme” for this character was the how much freshness they brought to the game. The fighters that we include in Smash Bros. tend to come from series that have histories. For instance, Dragon Quest’s “Hero,” “Banjo & Kazooie,” and Fatal Fury’s Terry Bogard all first appeared around 20 to 30 years ago – I want to include quite a wide breadth of characters.

Source for above.

And you want to know why Sakurai can't easily say "no" with Corrin and beyond? Japanese work culture, one of whose central principles is horenso.

HO stands for 報告 (houkoku), which means report or inform. That means that if your boss or superior assigns you a task, you’re expected to keep them regularly informed about your progress.

REN stands for 連絡 (renraku), which means contact or coordinate. Japan has a very collectivist nature, and the business culture here is no exception. If you experience a problem or a change in your work, it’s essential to notify your superior and your coworkers immediately.

SO stands for 相談 (soudan), which means consult. As we mentioned previously, Japan isn’t an individualist country. It’s important to consult with your team and your boss before taking any action on your own.

And yes, there are Japanese people even in the video game industry who have gone against that, like Sonic's co-creator Yuji Naka as of late. And given his HR firing, he's now blacklisted in Japan in all likelihood.

And now you’re accusing me of psychological games?

because it a baseless nonsense which is exactly what you’re accusing me of. Therefore you are a hypocrite

The thing in the other thread was more of your baseless conjecture

You're not playing any psychological games here. You're attacking me for something that you consider, in this same thread at that, one of the most human things there is.

id say hypocrisy is one of the most human things there is.

 

[fogbadge]

Claiming it's contradictory to leave out Ayumi but keep Marth and Roy is purposefully leaving out a ton of context.

Ayumi was being considered as the retro throwback character. If she were included in Melee, she'd have already been on the obscure side for Japan, but also a complete unknown outside of it. Famicom Detective Club was well regarded in Japan, but it was still, at the time, a dead franchise.

Fire Emblem, on the other hand, was even at the time too big to ignore for Japan. It was still getting games, with a sixth on the way. To put that into perspective, by the time of Melee's development I'm pretty sure Zelda only had six (the original, Zelda 2, Link's Awakening, A Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask). Marth was one of the single most requested Melee characters in Japan, and Mystery of the Emblem was a flagship SNES title there, having sold 750,000 copies despite being exclusive to Japan.

And despite ALL of that, Marth and Roy were meant to be removed from international versions of Melee. Ayumi was, by comparison, small potatoes. Barring Fire Emblem from Melee would've been seen in Japan as equivalent to leaving the Inklings out of Ultimate, whereas Ayumi was outprioritized for her slot by international characters of a similar proverbial weight class. There's no contradiction here. Fire Emblem was an incredibly special case when it came to Japan-only franchises, and now that we're well past the era of Nintendo games not getting localized, there will likely never be a case like it again, wherein we get characters that never left Japan.

Like, it's pretty telling that the latest semi-major Japan-only Nintendo release I can think of is Zangeki no Reginleiv, and that was during the Wii era.

but that’s not the reason he gave was it. He said it was because she was Japan only. Any other reason is pure hyperbole. Well what he said was that she more than anyone else was unknown outside of Japan. Quite how you measured such a thing in the days before we all had broadband I don’t know but it does sound quite made up. See this is what I don’t get you lot say we have to take sakurai word as law and when I point out something he’s done that contradicts it, it’s just an exception. No matter how many times he does it. And then I’m the one who’s making things up.

Sakurai can’t be bias towards fire emblem cause he said he’s not. That’s the logic is it, take the word of a guy who doesn’t seem to think about what he’s saying.

IDRGAF about this part of the argument anymore.



If you think it's just his team at Sora Ltd., then you're mistaken:



Source for above.



Source for above.



Source for above.

And you want to know why Sakurai can't easily say "no" with Corrin and beyond? Japanese work culture, one of whose central principles is horenso.







And yes, there are Japanese people even in the video game industry who have gone against that, like Sonic's co-creator Yuji Naka as of late. And given his HR firing, he's now blacklisted in Japan in all likelihood.



You're not playing any psychological games here. You're attacking me for something that you consider, in this same thread at that, one of the most human things there is.

He’s contradicting himself in that article. He says his preferences don’t affect who’s added? What rot. The original game was full of who he considered the biggest Nintendo characters(and several clones) he chose inceneroar cause he wanted a wrestler character. The Kirby games are focused on his ones. He deliberately elevated dark pit, his pet character from his last game. He picked greninja. He chose robin over the popular character. The roster is full of characters who are only here cause he wants them. The special treatment of FE doesn’t happen outside of smash. In every other marketing exercise outside of smash FE does not get more than the bigger series. So why would Nintendo only do it for smash? That just doesn’t make sense.

there is a clear disconnect between what he says and what he does. He thinks there’s to many swords users? Then why give Steve one? Why include pyra and mythra and not say a character with a weapon not seen in the game yet like say dual chakarms? Based on his own words he could pick Amy character he wanted from that game. Why put in sephiroth? Well that one was probably SE, cloud can’t go 5 minutes without him. So why should we take him at his word for anything? Why should we take anyone at their word?

 

[Quillion]

See this is what I don’t get you lot say we have to take sakurai word as law and when I point out something he’s done that contradicts it, it’s just an exception.

My current view is that Sakurai's word is solid until later contradicted by a later statement or action.

But not in your sense of "everything he says is invalid because he contradicted himself that one time on a very different topic." That's just whataboutism, a thing I'm guilty of using in the past and am trying to get rid of in my arguing.

My view is in the sense of "his word on one topic is solid, his word on another topic has changed". I can't put it any simpler than that.

 

[fogbadge]

My current view is that Sakurai's word is solid until later contradicted by a later statement or action.

But not in your sense of "everything he says is invalid because he contradicted himself that one time on a very different topic." That's just whataboutism, a thing I'm guilty of using in the past and am trying to get rid of in my arguing.

My view is in the sense of "his word on one topic is solid, his word on another topic has changed". I can't put it any simpler than that.

But he hasn’t contradicted himself only once he’s done it several times. But no apparently they’re just exceptions, it doesn’t matter that he does it again and again cause we can think of excuses for him. he might not be aware he's doing. people are in denial all the time. but you just can't believe someone cause they said it

has no one on this forum ever been lied to before?

 

[Opossum]

but that’s not the reason he gave was it. He said it was because she was Japan only. Any other reason is pure hyperbole. Well what he said was that she more than anyone else was unknown outside of Japan. Quite how you measured such a thing in the days before we all had broadband I don’t know but it does sound quite made up. See this is what I don’t get you lot say we have to take sakurai word as law and when I point out something he’s done that contradicts it, it’s just an exception. No matter how many times he does it. And then I’m the one who’s making things up.

Sakurai can’t be bias towards fire emblem cause he said he’s not. That’s the logic is it, take the word of a guy who doesn’t seem to think about what he’s saying.




He’s contradicting himself in that article. He says his preferences don’t affect who’s added? What rot. The original game was full of who he considered the biggest Nintendo characters(and several clones) he chose inceneroar cause he wanted a wrestler character. The Kirby games are focused on his ones. He deliberately elevated dark pit, his pet character from his last game. He picked greninja. He chose robin over the popular character. The roster is full of characters who are only here cause he wants them. The special treatment of FE doesn’t happen outside of smash. In every other marketing exercise outside of smash FE does not get more than the bigger series. So why would Nintendo only do it for smash? That just doesn’t make sense.

there is a clear disconnect between what he says and what he does. He thinks there’s to many swords users? Then why give Steve one? Why include pyra and mythra and not say a character with a weapon not seen in the game yet like say dual chakarms? Based on his own words he could pick Amy character he wanted from that game. Why put in sephiroth? Well that one was probably SE, cloud can’t go 5 minutes without him. So why should we take him at his word for anything? Why should we take anyone at their word?

At this point you're just babbling incoherently so I'll stop now. Any relevant point I can make, whether or not you choose to accept it, has been made.

 

[Quillion]

So why should we take him at his word for anything? Why should we take anyone at their word?

people are in denial all the time. but you just can't believe someone cause they said it

has no one on this forum ever been lied to before?

Because if a person is really that untrusting to the point that they can take absolutely nothing at anyone's word, they'll just alienate everyone, become ostracized, and stay isolated.

I'll stand with Opossum and not go further than this.

 

[fogbadge]

At this point you're just babbling incoherently so I'll stop now. Any relevant point I can make, whether or not you choose to accept it, has been made.

Because if a person is really that untrusting to the point that they can take absolutely nothing at anyone's word, they'll just alienate everyone, become ostracized, and stay isolated.

I'll stand with Opossum and not go further than this.

well when you’re telling someone to take the word word of someone they don’t take the word of you shouldn’t be surprised that they’re unwilling to take their word

seriously you're proof for why i should take sakurai at his word was more of his word. you can't honestly thought that would work

you know i actually believe sakurai when he said there were too many FE characters during smash 4. the four base characters seemed reasonable and bringing back roy seemed fair with mewto and lucas. even corrin as annoying as he was i could go along with the idea that the smash team were biging him up cause that what theyd all been playing lately, cause thats what we all do. but then byleth happened. the first time sak's not in charge of the character choice and we end up with a character from the one series people say is the most over repped. apparently at the behest of nintendo over their bigger franchises and games? no that was one coiencdence to many