Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Quillion]

And what did they say?

Pretty much the usual corporate non-answer.

Can't fault them too much though. Even Sony IE, which is MUCH bigger than Nintendo, can't support every single IP in its own history.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Pretty much the usual corporate non-answer.

Can't fault them too much though. Even Sony IE, which is MUCH bigger than Nintendo, can't support every single IP in its own history.

Not helped by the fact Sony seems like they'd rather pretend their Japanese IPs don't exist...

 

[Quillion]

Not helped by the fact Sony seems like they'd rather pretend their Japanese IPs don't exist...

It's even worse because, IIRC, they were doing that circa the PS2 era, before Sony IE moved to the States during the PS4 era.

 

[ahemtoday]

TBH, I hope that alts can at most change idles, face animations, and taunts in the future. That way, we can have things like ALttP Zelda, SS Zelda, and BotW Zelda sharing animations while OoT and TP Zelda do likewise, all in one slot.

Or have tiered alts. Zelda! -> Tetra -> Skins. Where Tetra is Tetra and Twilight Princess is TP Zelda (Brawl) and on and on shoot 5, 6 versions. Each with their own similar kit (assuming her kit remains as is) but slightly different like Tetra would not only look different with Toon animation but prolly different moves.

Mario -> Standard
Dr. Mario
Etc.

That seems even better. It could work for certain iterations of one character. It could have small effects like a Fire Mario alt adding fire effects to all of his attacks. Or Cat Mario having slash effects on certain attacks and catlike idles and taunts.

I think Tetra/Toon Zelda should be their own character though.

Eh... I'm not all that crazy about alt costumes having gameplay differences. Even when they're minor ones. It would feel weird to think about how your hitboxes would be affected by choosing the Classic Sonic alt or how the fire from Fire Mario's attacks will blow up Link's bombs but not affect red Pikmin. And if we start throwing around the concept of actually different moves, then we move from those sorts of edge cases to it being an always-relevant strategic consideration, and that's where you completely lose me.

Also hang on isn't this just what Echo Fighters are

 

[Quillion]

Eh... I'm not all that crazy about alt costumes having gameplay differences. Even when they're minor ones. It would feel weird to think about how your hitboxes would be affected by choosing the Classic Sonic alt or how the fire from Fire Mario's attacks will blow up Link's bombs but not affect red Pikmin. And if we start throwing around the concept of actually different moves, then we move from those sorts of edge cases to it being an always-relevant strategic consideration, and that's where you completely lose me.

Also hang on isn't this just what Echo Fighters are

Then they should scrap the idea of fire interacting with explosives for character-generated items and reserve it to random items.

Also, I agree about the hitbox issue; that's why I said Tetra/Toon Zelda should be separate.

 

[ahemtoday]

Then they should scrap the idea of fire interacting with explosives for character-generated items and reserve it to random items.

Also, I agree about the hitbox issue; that's why I said Tetra/Toon Zelda should be separate.

I mean, while characters with different proportions have the most obvious hitbox issues, having different animations - even just taunts or (more relevantly) idle animations - would also result in the same sorts of differences.

 

[Sucumbio]

I just think the next system will be powerful enough to have it where in cases of multiple characters having different moves like link and zelda instead of having 4 slots taken up by the various links it could be one slot. Yes this is essentially echoes (though in the case of Tetra not really). I don't feel this precludes anything just another way of organizing the css to be more streamlined and frankly smaller. The current css is just so huge and so many slots could have been truncated into just Link, Zelda, Mario, etc.

 

[ahemtoday]

I just think the next system will be powerful enough to have it where in cases of multiple characters having different moves like link and zelda instead of having 4 slots taken up by the various links it could be one slot. Yes this is essentially echoes (though in the case of Tetra not really). I don't feel this precludes anything just another way of organizing the css to be more streamlined and frankly smaller. The current css is just so huge and so many slots could have been truncated into just Link, Zelda, Mario, etc.

This is not a matter of console power. The Switch is perfectly capable of having multiple characters in the same CSS slot, as evidenced by the fact that you can stack echoes.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "so many slots", either. I mean, who could you do this with that you can't already? Dr. Mario, Young Link, and Toon Link? Maybe Pichu? After that, you start pushing the envelope by putting Luigi behind Mario and Sheik behind Zelda; and once you get to the point of making people who want to play as a character peek under a character who is quite solidly different to find them, I do not really consider that "streamlined".

 

[osby]

I just think the next system will be powerful enough to have it where in cases of multiple characters having different moves like link and zelda instead of having 4 slots taken up by the various links it could be one slot. Yes this is essentially echoes (though in the case of Tetra not really). I don't feel this precludes anything just another way of organizing the css to be more streamlined and frankly smaller. The current css is just so huge and so many slots could have been truncated into just Link, Zelda, Mario, etc.

But a bigger CSS feels way more intuitive than playing a guessing game with which characters might be hiding extra fighters in them. I can see more stacking options but I think the way fangames like Super Smash Bros Crusade is really bizarre where you have no way of knowing a character's alts is just them with a different set of properties or an outright different character.

It just doesn't feel like it's going to add anything to the game, other than falsely entertaining the idea that slots are a limited source.

 

[Sucumbio]

I guess that makes sense. I'm not really sure why it bothers me there's so many links lol just seems dumb.

 

[Quillion]

I mean, while characters with different proportions have the most obvious hitbox issues, having different animations - even just taunts or (more relevantly) idle animations - would also result in the same sorts of differences.

They could also scrap the idea of taunts having hitboxes.

Still though, is there any idle that serves a practical gameplay purpose? I'm not talking about their stance, I'm talkin about the little things they do when AFK.

But a bigger CSS feels way more intuitive than playing a guessing game with which characters might be hiding extra fighters in them. I can see more stacking options but I think the way fangames like Super Smash Bros Crusade is really bizarre where you have no way of knowing a character's alts is just them with a different set of properties or an outright different character.

It just doesn't feel like it's going to add anything to the game, other than falsely entertaining the idea that slots are a limited source.

Crusade's mods change character alts to different characters, but current vanilla only reserves that to alternative modes for existing characters.

I guess that makes sense. I'm not really sure why it bothers me there's so many links lol just seems dumb.

There's so many Links yet they took away the one I was used to (OoT/TP Link).

 

[SPEN18]

Or...hear me out...just let us customize the CSS.

 

[ahemtoday]

They could also scrap the idea of taunts having hitboxes.

Still though, is there any idle that serves a practical gameplay purpose? I'm not talking about their stance, I'm talkin about the little things they do when AFK.

Ah, jeez, did I mix up hitboxes and hurtboxes? I can never keep those two straight.

Let me rephrase: if one of these costume characters has an idle animation where they, for instance, stretch their arms up over their head; that arm can be whacked by a sword when the default idle animation wouldn't be. The same goes for different animations on taunts.

That's a particular egregious example that I picked, there, but this issue will exist to some extent for any noticeable animation difference whatsoever outside of stuff like victory poses.

 

[Quillion]

Ah, jeez, did I mix up hitboxes and hurtboxes? I can never keep those two straight.

Let me rephrase: if one of these costume characters has an idle animation where they, for instance, stretch their arms up over their head; that arm can be whacked by a sword when the default idle animation wouldn't be. The same goes for different animations on taunts.

That's a particular egregious example that I picked, there, but this issue will exist to some extent for any noticeable animation difference whatsoever outside of stuff like victory poses.

Duly noted, but when would you need to let an idle play out or taunt any time other than the time between scoring a kill and the opponent respawning?

There's a reason that I think animation/effect-changing alts should be limited to idles, taunts, and face animations.

 

[RileyXY1]

Or...hear me out...just let us customize the CSS.

My options are to arrange them by franchise (like in Smash 64-Smash 4), alphabetically, or by Smash debut (like in Ultimate).

 

[SPEN18]

My options are to arrange them by franchise (like in Smash 64-Smash 4), alphabetically, or by Smash debut (like in Ultimate).

By franchise would be my preference. By debut has been impractical IMO, not to mention that it makes way less sense if there are cuts next game. Alphabetically...eh, it wouldn't be as bad practically as the current ordering I'd guess, but I'd probably not like it aesthetically (like, assuming I didn't forget anybody, in Ultimate's roster Luigi would end up directly before Mario).

 

[Stratos]

I believe that in the next game of the Super Smash Bros series, Pikachu should have its Gigantamax form with its G-Max Move the G-Max Volt Crash as its Final Smash.

 

[Quillion]

I believe that in the next game of the Super Smash Bros series, Pikachu should have its Gigantamax form with its G-Max Move the G-Max Volt Crash as its Final Smash.

Catastropika would be cooler IMO. Dmaxing can go to Jigglypuff if anything.

 

[Chuderz]

The CSS is atrocious. It literally can only mean something to Sakurai unless he's had any single one team member since 64.

Speaking of Smash 64 I'm kind of worried about its borderline inevitable release on NSO because that probably means Nintendo will get annoyingly aggressive against the Smash 64 remix team.

The last 64 Remix trailer showed they have 2 character slots they're still working with/on and I'd venture to say that that's probably it and they're probably planning to release both these characters together at once in a final update as a means of ending the project on their terms. It's really too bad because I'd love the mod to get updated forever and while that's looking more and more unlikely I still hope this won't be the end of 64 modding scene that has really just now taken off like it has.

I kind of wish Smashboards would let us pick our Smash 64 Remix mains but I think it has definitely ascended to Project M/+ tier.

 

[MasterCheef]

do you think we would get Ahri, or Jinx? She's kind of the face now, isn't she.

at this point i think Master Chief has a better chance than any LoL rep. for a LoL rep I think Ahri is the most likely choice if we are going to go by the history of the franchise which is what Sakurai has done exceedingly consistently. i do think Jinx is most likely Second Rep

The way I see it:

Characters with global appearances = Highest chances of being made playable
Characters with Japan only appearances = Little to no chance of being made playable, but high chance of appearing as a spirit, AT, etc (i.e Takamaru, Lip, Sukapon, etc)
Characters with Western only appearances = Little to no chance of appearing at all (i.e Mike Jones, Scorpion, etc)

meaning Master Chief and Ahri are the most likely top candidates for third party candidates.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The CSS is atrocious. It literally can only mean something to Sakurai unless he's had any single one team member since 64.

Or...to anyone that's been playing since 64. Like me.

I love the "in order of appearance" ordering.

 

[Chuderz]

Or...to anyone that's been playing since 64. Like me.

I love the "in order of appearance" ordering.

I've been playing since 64 and I hate it and I don't think I need to elaborate on why. We've had it ordered by franchise every single entry until now and I'd at least like that option in the same way I have to stack the echoes. Options can't really hurt. It'd be cool if I could set the defaults of each character too while we're on the subject.

 

[Laniv]

I've been playing since 64 and I hate it and I don't think I need to elaborate on why. We've had it ordered by franchise every single entry until now and I'd at least like that option in the same way I have to stack the echoes. Options can't really hurt. It'd be cool if I could set the defaults of each character too while we're on the subject.

Yeah, they should've at least given us the option to arrange the CSS, maybe unlock that after you unlock all the base game characters.

While we're at it, bring back the option to tilt the menu with the C-stick.

 

[Quillion]

Or...to anyone that's been playing since 64. Like me.

I love the "in order of appearance" ordering.

I've been playing since Melee and have gone back to Smash 64 at a few events, and I'm still not fond of Ultimate's CSS.

Also, it sucks for everyone who entered Smash through Ultimate.

 

[dream1ng]

There is no rating agency in the world that has firearm on content descriptor.
Lara Croft didn't raise rating in Brawhala with her pistols.

Read the more detailed rating summary of any game and it will describe the type of weapons used. The shorthand is it falling under the umbrella of 'violence' and, if present, 'blood' and/or 'gore' - of which there are different levels as per the ratings guide.

Sakurai has also said the overseas rating boards care about guns. He knows better than all of us.

at this point i think Master Chief has a better chance than any LoL rep. for a LoL rep I think Ahri is the most likely choice if we are going to go by the history of the franchise which is what Sakurai has done exceedingly consistently. i do think Jinx is most likely Second Rep

Well, the character we tend to get first is the most visible one. Usually that's the protagonist, but, to my knowledge, LoL doesn't have one of those. If not that, it's generally the face, or most popular character. Both of those, these days, go to Jinx, I'm pretty sure. In general, maybe not in-game.

She got her own show, she dominates the promotion, she's the one that showed up in Fortnite. She just seems like she has more in her favor than a character whose case mostly comes down to, well, I'm not entirely sure. She's not one of the original champions. In-game Ashe is the default champion, isn't she? And Ezreal is the most popular in-game champion. What is Ahri's edge?

meaning Master Chief and Ahri are the most likely top candidates for third party candidates.

You think Master Chief and Ahri are the only characters who appear globally? These days it's much more uncommon not to appear globally.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I've been playing since 64 and I hate it and I don't think I need to elaborate on why.

Actually, I'm curious why because I really don't see why anybody would have a problem with it.

 

[Lionfranky]

Read the more detailed rating summary of any game and it will describe the type of weapons used. The shorthand is it falling under the umbrella of 'violence' and, if present, 'blood' and/or 'gore' - of which there are different levels as per the ratings guide.

Sakurai has also said the overseas rating boards care about guns. He knows better than all of us.

I actually worked on game rating before like playing and listing various rating elements for each game.
It also involved researching foreign rating agency. I understand how Sakurai felt when he was dealing with CERO.
Rating board can be really stingy and strict while lax on the other time.
Listing weapons on summary =/= content descriptor
Summary doesn't mean all those factors raise rating. In term of violence, only blood and gore ultimately matter.
Sakurai also said various stuff only to can it later.
Rating agency also changed over time. Some stricter or vice versa.

But, let's just say weapon description on rating summary matters that much.
That's pretty moot point for character like Lara Croft since this is Smash Ultimate's rating summary.

This is a fighting game in which players engage in brawls with characters from Nintendo and third-party franchises. Players punch, kick, and perform super attacks (e.g., giant laser blasts, rocket barrages) against cartoony opponents to knock them off platforms; a handful of characters also use swords, blasters, mallets, and firearms while fighting. Battles can be frenetic at times, with screen-shaking effects and large explosions. During the course of the game, players can unlock 2D character art that depicts female characters in revealing outfits (e.g., short skirts, deep cleavage, low-cut tops). One character emits flatulence gas clouds to attack opponents.

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - ESRB

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Everyone 10+ - This is a fighting game in which players engage in brawls with characters from Nintendo and third-party franchises.

www.esrb.org

 

[dream1ng]

I actually worked on game rating before like playing and listing various rating elements for each game.
It also involved researching foreign rating agency. I understand how Sakurai felt when he was dealing with CERO.
Rating board can be really stingy and strict while lax on the other time.
Listing weapons on summary =/= content descriptor
Summary doesn't mean all those factors raise rating. In term of violence, only blood and gore ultimately matter.
Sakurai also said various stuff only to can it later.
Rating agency also changed over time. Some stricter or vice versa.

But, let's just say weapon description on rating summary matters that much.
That's pretty moot point for character like Lara Croft since this is Smash Ultimate's rating summary.

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - ESRB

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Everyone 10+ - This is a fighting game in which players engage in brawls with characters from Nintendo and third-party franchises.

www.esrb.org

Lara Croft wasn't my example - she uses pistols. My example was an assault rifle, and I've been pretty clear that one firearm isn't the same as another.

Also Sakurai's mind has changed before, but whether rating boards care about guns isn't his opinion. It's not a case of, "well, I've changed my mind. Rating boards don't care about guns" as if it were character feasibility. This is Sakurai stating a fact, not sharing an opinion.

And the descriptor for intense violence specifically lists, among others, "realistic weapons". The rating scales down the less realistic they are or behave, to "cartoony violence". If an SMG, even a realistic one, shot out laser beams, it probably wouldn't be the same issue as if it shot out bullets. And then how those bullets behave is obviously another factor.

Your logic entails a character, even if they never use it, being permitted to stroll around an EC game carrying a realistic Kalashnikov? I somehow doubt that.

 

[MasterCheef]

What is Ahri's edge?

You think Master Chief and Ahri are the only characters who appear globally? These days it's much more uncommon not to appear globally.

Ahri's edge is she and Lux were the face of most of the promotional material during the P.C. only days.

for Master Chief it's his global effect as it relates to bring LAN & online play for FPS much more mainstream when it came to consoles.

 

[dream1ng]

Ahri's edge is she and Lux were the face of most of the promotional material during the P.C. only days.

Yeah but it's not like, 2013 anymore. Another character has superseded her in terms of all the important qualities for inclusion.

for Master Chief it's his global effect as it relates to bring LAN & online play for FPS much more mainstream when it came to consoles.

A lot of characters have been an influence in gaming, not just the two you want to see. If Master Chief gets picked it'll be due to his prominence and popularity, which is sort of in the same realm as what you're saying, but something like "expanding the prevalence of LAN play" isn't going to be what gets him in.

If Smash really cared about showing the impact of FPS games, we'd probably have an FPS character by now.

 

[MasterCheef]

Yeah but it's not like, 2013 anymore. Another character has superseded her in terms of all the important qualities for inclusion.

Since when has Sakurai not started with the character of the most historical importance in a given franchise? and why do you think the next director would break this trend?

A lot of characters have been an influence in gaming, not just the two you want to see. If Master Chief gets picked it'll be due to his prominence and popularity, which is sort of in the same realm as what you're saying, but something like "expanding the prevalence of LAN play" isn't going to be what gets him in.

Again why would he not be picked because he was the most popular pick on the Smash 4 ballot era. i expect he is still the most popular character, with Sora now being out of the way.

If Smash really cared about showing the impact of FPS games, we'd probably have an FPS character by now.

fundamentally it is up to Nintendo's president and as far as i can tell no Nintendo president has yet been interested in a straight up FPS rep. to me i think if we were to get him in it would be because Microsoft just makes a deal too good for Nintendo to pass up.

 

[Opossum]

Since when has Sakurai not started with the character of the most historical importance in a given franchise? and why do you think the next director would break this trend?

Min Min, for one. "Everyone is the Protagonist" only goes so far when Spring Man was at the forefront of the marketing, was the ARMS choice for the Assist Trophy, the main character of the cancelled graphic novel, had his own "Evil Ryu" in the form of Springtron, and has ties to Max Brass. Everyone may be the protagonist, but not all of them were equally important protagonists.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Min Min, for one. "Everyone is the Protagonist" only goes so far when Spring Man was at the forefront of the marketing, was the ARMS choice for the Assist Trophy, the main character of the cancelled graphic novel, had his own "Evil Ryu" in the form of Springtron, and has ties to Max Brass. Everyone may be the protagonist, but not all of them were equally important protagonists.

Unrelated, but if we ever get an Arms 2, I kinda want them to do what Splatoon does with its sequels: have Min Min be the new Arms champion as a result of winning the Party Crash Bash.

Hey, it'd make having her be the Arms rep easier to justify...

 

[Opossum]

Unrelated, but if we ever get an Arms 2, I kinda want them to do what Splatoon does with its sequels: have Min Min be the new Arms champion as a result of winning the Party Crash Bash.

Hey, it'd make having her be the Arms rep easier to justify...

In fairness I don't think she's hard to justify over Spring Man. They both had merit. Spring Man was the lead mascot, and Min Min was the fan favorite.

 

[fogbadge]

Unrelated, but if we ever get an Arms 2, I kinda want them to do what Splatoon does with its sequels: have Min Min be the new Arms champion as a result of winning the Party Crash Bash.

Hey, it'd make having her be the Arms rep easier to justify...

why does she need to be justified?

 

[chocolatejr9]

In fairness I don't think she's hard to justify over Spring Man. They both had merit. Spring Man was the lead mascot, and Min Min was the fan favorite.

why does she need to be justified?

I was mostly referring to... THOSE people. You might know the ones.

 

[SPEN18]

"Everyone is the Protagonist" only goes so far when Spring Man was at the forefront of the marketing, was the ARMS choice for the Assist Trophy, the main character of the cancelled graphic novel, had his own "Evil Ryu" in the form of Springtron, and has ties to Max Brass. Everyone may be the protagonist, but not all of them were equally important protagonists.

Which is why I was disappointed by Min Min, despite actually liking the character. That and also the missed opportunity to shatter the whole AT disconfirmation stuff pushed so vehemently by certain segments of the fanbase.

why does she need to be justified?

Because if characters don't need to be justified in some way then we may as well just have Sakurai add his 80th favorite FE character...

 

[fogbadge]

I was mostly referring to... THOSE people. You might know the ones.

the detractors or the ones who feel everyone needs to be justified?

Because if characters don't need to be justified in some way then we may as well just have Sakurai add his 80th favorite FE character...

I’m not sure you’ve been paying attention to the roster

 

[SPEN18]

In fairness I don't think she's hard to justify over Spring Man. They both had merit. Spring Man was the lead mascot, and Min Min was the fan favorite.

But I don't think the popularity of Min Min was so overwhelming to the point that she overshadowed Spring Man, nor did she have that much extra interesting moveset capability. Min Min isn't enough to undermine Spring Man's mascot reputation, nor does she make him look bland/uninteresting.

 

[fogbadge]

But I don't think the popularity of Min Min was so overwhelming to the point that she overshadowed Spring Man, nor did she have that much extra interesting moveset capability. Min Min isn't enough to undermine Spring Man's mascot reputation, nor does she make him look bland/uninteresting.

Well all that hardly matters as she got in cause the arms director wanted her