Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[ahemtoday]

I don't think giving Ganondorf a sword and magic could ever make him more similar to another character than he is currently as a clone of Captain Falcon.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't think giving Ganondorf a sword and magic could ever make him more similar to another character than he is currently as a clone of Captain Falcon.

About as similar as Samus and Mewtwo are to each other, both are floaty characters with a charge up projectile. So they're basically the exact same thing.

Why even do we have Meta Knight , if you can just play Kirby / Jigglypuff and add Beam Swords into your battle. Exact same thing.

 

[Quillion]

I don't think giving Ganondorf a sword and magic could ever make him more similar to another character than he is currently as a clone of Captain Falcon.

Two of his smash aninations were hastily copied from Ike tbf.

Still though, so many characters have such long histories that they've done pretty much everything possible. Picking and choosing "iconic" canon abilities and even making things up would result in uncomfortable overlap.

There's only so many ways you can do sword-wielding RPG hero and bare-handed "every other gaming genre" hero. At least we don't have a surplus of gun-toting marine hero that plagues most shooters.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Two of his smash aninations were hastily copied from Ike tbf.

Still though, so many characters have such long histories that they've done pretty much everything possible. Picking and choosing "iconic" canon abilities and even making things up would result in uncomfortable overlap.

There's only so many ways you can do sword-wielding RPG hero and bare-handed "every other gaming genre" hero. At least we don't have a surplus of gun-toting marine hero that plagues most shooters.

Isaac from Golden Sun would be unique, and he's a sword wielding RPG hero, a JRPG hero even. All thanks to his abilities that are unique, and if not that, no other character in Smash does the things he does.

And that's despite the blonde spikey hair that's obviously copied from Cloud, but I'd guess some people would call Isaac the exact same thing as Cloud due to this.

Or Hero maybe, because JRPG swordsman with magic. Which is exactly Isaac.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Not true. The 2nd Fighters Pack was revealed on Terry's showcase, before Byleth's reveal. That was probably what kept people from losing all of their **** because they knew more characters were coming after Byleth.

And Min-Min hardly generated any hate, because we were told ahead of time that there was going to be an ARMS character for the first Fighter Pack 2 reveal. And even then, people didn't really lose their cool at the ARMS reveal because it was a new franchise for Smash and one that Sakurai did want in base game Smash Bros, but due to timing, couldn't focus on it at the time. Hence why Rex/Pyra/Mythra were heavily anticipated after Min-Min since Sakurai did want to add a Xenoblade 2 character as well and Xenoblade only had Shulk. Min-Min and Pyra/Mythra hardly got any hate aside from the group of people complaining about "representation" and "horny bait characters".

Yeah Min Min and Pyra/Mythra weren't unpopular additions. Gameplay aside, they're all popular.

Where did this idea come from?

 

[dream1ng]

Two of his smash aninations were hastily copied from Ike tbf.

Still though, so many characters have such long histories that they've done pretty much everything possible. Picking and choosing "iconic" canon abilities and even making things up would result in uncomfortable overlap.

There's only so many ways you can do sword-wielding RPG hero and bare-handed "every other gaming genre" hero. At least we don't have a surplus of gun-toting marine hero that plagues most shooters.

I know people say this about sword-wielding JRPG characters, but we kept getting unique ones until literally the very end. And of course thematically it's a paradigm that Smash has done to death, but in practice, we continue to get original movesets out of these characters.

And none of the popular candidates who fit this mold run the risk of being unoriginal, either. If you're familiar with them, characters like Crono, Isaac, 2B or Lloyd clearly have enough to set them apart.

 

[RileyXY1]

Too bad the funny, unique Tingle is for some reason being phased out in favor of Beedle lately, whose only real character traits are liking beetles and being very slightly fruity.

That's because Tingle is very unpopular among American audiences. There's an entire trope on TVTropes called "Americans Hate Tingle" which is meant to be about characters who are hated in specific countries.

 

[Quillion]

Isaac from Golden Sun would be unique, and he's a sword wielding RPG hero, a JRPG hero even. All thanks to his abilities that are unique, and if not that, no other character in Smash does the things he does.

And that's despite the blonde spikey hair that's obviously copied from Cloud, but I'd guess some people would call Isaac the exact same thing as Cloud due to this.

Or Hero maybe, because JRPG swordsman with magic. Which is exactly Isaac.

Point taken. His Venus Psynergy is like grass, rock, and ground type from what I can tell.

Still, I'm talking more about things where Ganon throwing an energy sphere is considered iconic to him by many fans, yet we have a whole bunch of "shoot energy ball" moves that are iconic for others like Mewtwo, Lucario, and Samus. Even WFT got a made-up one.

I know people say this about sword-wielding JRPG characters, but we kept getting unique ones until literally the very end. And of course thematically it's a paradigm that Smash has done to death, but in practice, we continue to get original movesets out of these characters.

And none of the popular candidates who fit this mold run the risk of being unoriginal, either. If you're familiar with them, characters like Crono, Isaac, 2B or Lloyd clearly have enough to set them apart.

What about bare-handed "every other gaming genre" hero or even gun-toting soldier shooter hero?

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Still, I'm talking more about things where Ganon throwing an energy sphere is considered iconic to him by many fans, yet we have a whole bunch of "shoot energy ball" moves that are iconic for others like Mewtwo, Lucario, and Samus. Even WFT got a made-up one.

To be fair, Ganon's energy ball is mostly special because you play ping-pong with it. As of right now, the closest thing to that is Dedede's Gordos.

 

[Quillion]

To be fair, Ganon's energy ball is mostly special because you play ping-pong with it. As of right now, the closest thing to that is Dedede's Gordos.

I dunno how well that will work with its straight trajectory in a side view plane. Gordo Toss works there since its bounce makes it less predictable and more useful.

 

[dream1ng]

What about bare-handed "every other gaming genre" hero or even gun-toting soldier shooter hero?

It's the same principle with any breakdown of characters. Thematic similarity doesn't translate to being redundant, because it doesn't inhibit being original. We may have fewer gun characters, but it's not like getting Chief would make Slayer unoriginal, or vice versa. All these characters can be made unique.

You'd only run into trouble if you're faced with a character made to be deliberately based on an existing one, from the same franchise, who functions in a very similar way. Then total uniqueness may be unrealistic. But that doesn't apply to characters whose similarity begins & ends with genre or weaponry or art style.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I dunno how well that will work with its straight trajectory in a side view plane. Gordo Toss works there since its bounce makes it less predictable and more useful.

I don't know either, but it's not really dead man's volley if it doesn't ping-pong. It probably would never be included if it can't have that property.

I agree with you that it doesn't make a lot of sense on his current moveset, I just don't feel that it would be another shadow ball if he did have it.

I'm really hoping that BotW 2 gives Ganondorf some cool stuff to pull from, and then maybe there would be a revamped moveset that makes more sense. At the moment, there isn't one that would really feel right to me.

 

[DarthEnderX]

It looks very nice...but I still hate it. Didn't want realistic looking SF... It looks like DMC5, but with more vibrant coloring. As someone that wanted a modern looking Alpha game, this is pretty much the opposite direction.

 

[Sucumbio]

It looks very nice...but I still hate it. Didn't want realistic looking SF... It looks like DMC5, but with more vibrant coloring. As someone that wanted a modern looking Alpha game, this is pretty much the opposite direction.

Heehee I know it's kinda funny but my personal take was wait when did sf become Tekken and my boo says it's still 2d .... Yeah no **** but look at these executions! I'm hyped for the gameplay less investment in style being I've not played any sf except 2 (and it's million editions hyper fighting my favorite) and ex plus alpha

 

[chocolatejr9]

and this too? Meow? Go Chun-Li!

I hope they bring back that Shadaloo Combat Research Institute thing they did for SFV. Or at least the Character Profiles, those did wonders for the series lore (they gave backstories to all the Final Fight mooks, and even made a few characters from the Street Fighter cartoon canon).

 

[JOJONumber691]

I hope they bring back that Shadaloo Combat Research Institute thing they did for SFV. Or at least the Character Profiles, those did wonders for the series lore (they gave backstories to all the Final Fight mooks, and even made a few characters from the Street Fighter cartoon canon).

No way. Which characters from the Cartoon are Canon?

 

[chocolatejr9]

No way. Which characters from the Cartoon are Canon?

Sadly, it was around that point where the updates stopped, but they did Crimson Crawdad (that guy Guile fights in the first episode) and Hell 3000 (one of the robots from the second episode). Also, while she never got a profile, Lucinda Davilla (Guile's love interest in the show) DID recieve profile artwork.

As for other stuff that became canon, there was the Bison Troopers and Sawada from the Street Fighter movie game, the Cyborg from the SFII interactive movie game, Shin from Street Fighter Online: Mouse Generation, and even Kyle from Final Fight Streetwise.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Huh. Neat.

 

[Sucumbio]

I don't know either, but it's not really dead man's volley if it doesn't ping-pong. It probably would never be included if it can't have that property.

I agree with you that it doesn't make a lot of sense on his current moveset, I just don't feel that it would be another shadow ball if he did have it.

I'm really hoping that BotW 2 gives Ganondorf some cool stuff to pull from, and then maybe there would be a revamped moveset that makes more sense. At the moment, there isn't one that would really feel right to me.

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I wanna test the transformation gimmick and go between Ganon and Dorf with down b so and to preserve wizkick while in his dorf form use tilt specials like the Kazuya treatment.. Ganon could have teleport and tracking fire balls you can hit back (Sephiroth is a good proof of concept) ...

 

[chocolatejr9]

Huh. Neat.

If only they'd gotten to La Lupa and Satin Hammer...

 

[Quillion]

I don't know either, but it's not really dead man's volley if it doesn't ping-pong. It probably would never be included if it can't have that property.

I agree with you that it doesn't make a lot of sense on his current moveset, I just don't feel that it would be another shadow ball if he did have it.

I'm really hoping that BotW 2 gives Ganondorf some cool stuff to pull from, and then maybe there would be a revamped moveset that makes more sense. At the moment, there isn't one that would really feel right to me.

Really now, as much as Canondorf fans trash Smash Ganondorf's portrayal for not having "iconic moves", I kinda hesitate to call anything Ganon (including Ganondorf) has done "iconic" of the character.

Ganon's entire ability set changes from game to game; there is no recurring thing he does. He has a vague "evil sorcerer king" paradigm, but most of the magic he does is offscreen.

Bowser gets a lot of different things in different main Mario games too, but at least he always has his fire breath from SMB1 and ground pound from SMB3 since their respective debuts.

To be clear, when i say "iconic", I'm more specifically referring to "iconicity by recurrence", where the amount of appearances in a series determines iconicity. You can say that Ganon's energy projectiles are "iconic by fan reception", but let's be real "iconicity by fan reception" is incredibly subjective and naming something iconic in that sense almost always involves a lot of fan myopia.
----
On the topic of Street Fighter, why wasn't SF5 Ken an alt? Sure, I vastly prefer classic Ken, but we can still have both.

Also, Chun-Li should be in Smash as SF's second non-echo.

 

[dream1ng]

Really now, as much as Canondorf fans trash Smash Ganondorf's portrayal for not having "iconic moves", I kinda hesitate to call anything Ganon (including Ganondorf) has done "iconic" of the character.

Ganon's entire ability set changes from game to game; there is no recurring thing he does. He has a vague "evil sorcerer king" paradigm, but most of the magic he does is offscreen.

Bowser gets a lot of different things in different main Mario games too, but at least he always has his fire breath from SMB1 and ground pound from SMB3 since their respective debuts.

To be clear, when i say "iconic", I'm more specifically referring to "iconicity by recurrence", where the amount of appearances in a series determines iconicity. You can say that Ganon's energy projectiles are "iconic by fan reception", but let's be real "iconicity by fan reception" is incredibly subjective and naming something iconic in that sense almost always involves a lot of fan myopia.

Well it's more that he just does (or did) Captain Falcon stuff but a little differently over doing much actual Ganondorf stuff. Sure he changes from game to game, but it's not like Zelda or Sheik did much of anything when they were given movesets. By that time there was at least a Ganondorf fight. And that tech demo that people liked.

People are just disappointed the character used so little of his own arsenal, even if that arsenal was inconsistent. That'd still be preferable to most than aping a different character from a different series' moveset.

Having said that, Ganondorf is usually one of the most played characters in the game. So I can see why they'd be hesitant to change him too much.

On the topic of Street Fighter, why wasn't SF5 Ken an alt? Sure, I vastly prefer classic Ken, but we can still have both.

In Smash? Was anyone actually expecting that?

If anything, Hot Ryu was the popular one.

Also, Chun-Li should be in Smash as SF's second non-echo.

I think most people can agree with that.

 

[Perkilator]

In Smash? Was anyone actually expecting that?

At least if it was an alt, his hair would look less like a banana, right?

 

[Quillion]

Well it's more that he just does (or did) Captain Falcon stuff but a little differently over doing much actual Ganondorf stuff. Sure he changes from game to game, but it's not like Zelda or Sheik did much of anything when they were given movesets. By that time there was at least a Ganondorf fight. And that tech demo that people liked.

People are just disappointed the character used so little of his own arsenal, even if that arsenal was inconsistent. That'd still be preferable to most than aping a different character from a different series' moveset.

Having said that, Ganondorf is usually one of the most played characters in the game. So I can see why they'd be hesitant to change him too much.

Then the solution is to replace Neutral B, Up B, and Down B with different punching specials. He'd be fully different from Falcon while still maintaining familiarity.

In Smash? Was anyone actually expecting that?

If anything, Hot Ryu was the popular one.

Hey, no one was expecting Castlevania and Street Fighter to jump Sonic in getting a second character.

We can have Chad Ryu as an alt as well.

At least if it was an alt, his hair would look less like a banana, right?

Admittedly I'm not too familiar with SF5 partly due to it being PS-exclusive. Do the vast majority of Ken players there stick with his classic costume or something?

 

[SPEN18]

On Lyn reception: not being blatant advertisement for recent games only and having appeared in Smash before as a very popular Assist would probably help her reception. My personal feel is that the FE/swordsperson haters would be out in full force at the start, but that the criticism would fade (as it usually does for most characters anyway) upon the realization by onlookers that she is actually legitimately popular and significant to FE fandom.

On both Lyn and the Zelda crew: yeah I would really like it if people would stop letting likelihood get in their way of rooting for certain characters, even though it is an unfortunate naturality.

Once you start drying up for choices from the past,

To say it again, I strongly dislike this narrative of the picks drying up. It's not that there aren't enough legacy picks left; there is a boatload of them, actually. It's more that most of them are deemed unlikely because of the previously established paradigm of explicitly avoiding legacy picks from non-80s eras, with few notable exceptions. Because the roster framework that's been established has (IMO, unfairly) made them unlikely (through purposefully treating Zelda one-offs differently than those of other series, usually only including characters from the most recent PKMN/FE/Xeno installments, tying the "timing" with the project plan way too intensely into the decisions, etc.), lots of the legacy picks like the Zelda crew, Lyn, and more have a tough time gaining traction within the Smash fanbase at a level commensurate with their actual merits or their importance within their home series or fanbase. Not because they aren't great picks that tons of people would love if they actually made it, but because they've not been given the wings to let their merits show themselves out fully. The minute any of these would be perceived as likely, I am pretty sure they would take off flying like Skull Kid did for a time. But unlike the rare underdog exceptions such as K. Rool or Banjo, they're also missing those 1-2 little niche things that seem to help a general Smash audience look past the unlikelihood (for K. Rool, being at a triple intersection of villainy, heaviness, and the DK franchise which were all deemed "underrepresented" by a great number of fans; for Banjo, the novelty of being third party, with maybe sometimes an accompanying perception that licensing would be the only thing causing the unlikelihood).

then Smash 4 separated Zelda and Sheik, which was weird cause here was the perfect opportunity to cut Sheik completely and add Impa instead

Yeah, grandfather clause in full force there. Same with Zero Suit, IMO; if they weren't going to continue with the transformation gimmick, then that's even more reason to just make a legit new Metroid character, even if Ridley in particular wasn't deemed doable at the time.

I do think that if Ultimate had a similar newcomer selection as Smash 4 did, we would've gotten a BotW Champion (likely Urbosa or Mipha). And I think this is quite a safe pick, as BotW gets a direct sequel now. In case of a reboot and not a Ultimate DX where the current cast stays, I would personally kick out the smaller Links and Sheik.

A newcomer selection closer to 4 would have made a lot of great characters more likely, Champions perhaps among them. Agreed that Mipha and Urbosa are the clear two that would get in.

Hey, a literal Koopa was a driver in the first Mario Kart all the way back on the SNES. Mario enemies being playable in Smash was a long time coming TBH.

I find that Mario Kart comparison to be ineffective; an inessential, filler PC in Mario Kart is not comparable at all to such a character making it into a big, allstar crossover. Also, PP barely making it in as a wacky, free bonus character screams more "low-priority filler making it in due to circumstantial factors" than "was a long time coming" IMO.

Yeah, but Mythra already fills the role of the blazing-fast swordsman with inhuman speed. There is nothing Lyn can do that Mythra isn't doing.

I don't think that to be more than a superficial comparison...it's eerily similar to the "all sword users are the same" mantra.

Lyn's projectiles would come from a bow and therefore function much differently than Mythra's.
Lyn would have way more of the illusion/pseudo-warp stuff, perhaps following her GBA crit animations if they need some more flare for it.
The katana-like style could be made into a much different brand of fighting.

Also, Lyn would not be part of a transformation gimmick, anyway. Even if you think her style similar to Mythra, Lyn wouldn't be balancing that against a slower, stronger counterpart; she would be all speed, all the time.

I recall a lot of people being generally okay with the series up through base Smash4

As best I can remember, I think the Robin-Lucina double reveal started stirring some FE disdain, though it was much quieter than it would later be. Remember that Lucina was featured prominently in the trailer at a time when the disposition towards clones was overall more negative, the pair subverted expectations by excluding Chrom, and with Ike already revealed at the time it bumped the total FE count up to four when people were used to it having just two reps (and perhaps expecting it to have just two reps with the guess of Chrom "replacing" Ike). When they tripled and quadrupled down with Roy and Corrin in DLC, it gave those more edible complaints from base some more fuel to fire with. Maybe if they had started the "Echo" marketing back then for Lucina and not brought Roy back, then Corrin would've been more readily accepted.

Byleth didn’t piss me off but I was a bit deflated in all honesty. I did laugh a bit at the reveal just imagining other people’s reactions though. I loved Three Houses but I’m not a huge fan of avatar characters, especially as Smash reps. I’d have been a lot more excited for Edelgarde or Dimitri.

Despite being a Blue Lions player, I think I thought Edelgard was the best pick for Smash at the time. I was fine with Byleth as the TH rep; however, I didn't really like the multi-weapon moveset so much. It's not like awful or anything, and TH is all about the weapon/class customization, but I would've preferred something else for the moveset if it absolutely had to be Byleth.

But overall, I personally was quite satisfied with Byleth given the very low expectations I had for that reveal going in.

her recurrent status alone

To be fair, Impa does put in quite a bit of work in Skyward Sword and at least a decent bit in Ocarina, too.

--

And on Ganondorf not having enough "recurring" moves:
It seems to me that moves being recurring in the home series should not really be an issue, especially for villains whose movesets are mostly pulled from endgame boss fights. Like, K. Rool still uses his boxing glove and whatnot.

 

[Yamat08]

To say it again, I strongly dislike this narrative of the picks drying up. It's not that there aren't enough legacy picks left; there is a boatload of them, actually. It's more that most of them are deemed unlikely because of the previously established paradigm of explicitly avoiding legacy picks from non-80s eras, with few notable exceptions. Because the roster framework that's been established has (IMO, unfairly) made them unlikely (through purposefully treating Zelda one-offs differently than those of other series, usually only including characters from the most recent PKMN/FE/Xeno installments, tying the "timing" with the project plan way too intensely into the decisions, etc.), lots of the legacy picks like the Zelda crew, Lyn, and more have a tough time gaining traction within the Smash fanbase at a level commensurate with their actual merits or their importance within their home series or fanbase. Not because they aren't great picks that tons of people would love if they actually made it, but because they've not been given the wings to let their merits show themselves out fully. The minute any of these would be perceived as likely, I am pretty sure they would take off flying like Skull Kid did for a time. But unlike the rare underdog exceptions such as K. Rool or Banjo, they're also missing those 1-2 little niche things that seem to help a general Smash audience look past the unlikelihood (for K. Rool, being at a triple intersection of villainy, heaviness, and the DK franchise which were all deemed "underrepresented" by a great number of fans; for Banjo, the novelty of being third party, with maybe sometimes an accompanying perception that licensing would be the only thing causing the unlikelihood).

For what it's worth, I think quite a few of the picks you mentioned were revealed as Assist Trophies early on, shooting down any hope of them getting in as a proper Fighter fairly quickly. In fact, Ultimate had a lot of would-be picks who were Assists, as well as Spirits (before Min Min disproved that they should be discounted), so in that sense, the pool of classic picks really did seem dry throughout Ultimate's DLC cycle. Of course, it should be a clean slate going into Smash6.

 

[SPEN18]

I think quite a few of the picks you mentioned were revealed as Assist Trophies early on, shooting down any hope of them getting in as a proper Fighter fairly quickly. In fact, Ultimate had a lot of would-be picks who were Assists, as well as Spirits (before Min Min disproved that they should be discounted)

Yeah, characters getting AT'd or Boss'd or whatever is just another unfortunate circumstantial factor that can hamper demand but doesn't have anything to do with the character's actual merits or legacy. Getting an AT as DLC in Ult would've gone a long way towards changing the perception, as characters disconfirmed for base could still have their fanbases rallying for DLC.

 

[Quillion]

On Lyn reception: not being blatant advertisement for recent games only and having appeared in Smash before as a very popular Assist would probably help her reception. My personal feel is that the FE/swordsperson haters would be out in full force at the start, but that the criticism would fade (as it usually does for most characters anyway) upon the realization by onlookers that she is actually legitimately popular and significant to FE fandom.

That and spreading the "blatant advertisement" among several different franchises like Pokémon and Xenoblade would help too. I like Fire Emblem, but I'm not a fan of how they seemingly get exclusive "ad for new game" privileges. Min Min and Pythra had to wait quite some time after their respective games were released.

To say it again, I strongly dislike this narrative of the picks drying up. It's not that there aren't enough legacy picks left; there is a boatload of them, actually. It's more that most of them are deemed unlikely because of the previously established paradigm of explicitly avoiding legacy picks from non-80s eras, with few notable exceptions. Because the roster framework that's been established has (IMO, unfairly) made them unlikely (through purposefully treating Zelda one-offs differently than those of other series, usually only including characters from the most recent PKMN/FE/Xeno installments, tying the "timing" with the project plan way too intensely into the decisions, etc.), lots of the legacy picks like the Zelda crew, Lyn, and more have a tough time gaining traction within the Smash fanbase at a level commensurate with their actual merits or their importance within their home series or fanbase. Not because they aren't great picks that tons of people would love if they actually made it, but because they've not been given the wings to let their merits show themselves out fully. The minute any of these would be perceived as likely, I am pretty sure they would take off flying like Skull Kid did for a time. But unlike the rare underdog exceptions such as K. Rool or Banjo, they're also missing those 1-2 little niche things that seem to help a general Smash audience look past the unlikelihood (for K. Rool, being at a triple intersection of villainy, heaviness, and the DK franchise which were all deemed "underrepresented" by a great number of fans; for Banjo, the novelty of being third party, with maybe sometimes an accompanying perception that licensing would be the only thing causing the unlikelihood).

It more feels like different franchises are being treated differently, at least from Brawl-onward.

• Mario character selection has developed a "wait and see" pattern. Bowser Jr. waited until Smash 4 despite being heavily pushed as a new main character in 2002's Sunshine before Brawl. Rosalina got in after being the bonus playable character in 3DW.
• Zelda just sticks with the Triforce trio and relegates all of the popular one-shots to assist status.
• Metroid stuck with Samus for some time until they finally figured out a way to comfortably implement Ridley plus Dark Samus as an easy clone.
• Pokémon, Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade have the whole "rotating cast" thing where newer iterations are likely to get a character, but it seems only Fire Emblem, as stated before, gets special treatment being the only franchise to get "recent game advertising" picks.
• Most other first-party franchises are small scale or one-time franchises that don't warrant additional characters.

Yeah, grandfather clause in full force there. Same with Zero Suit, IMO; if they weren't going to continue with the transformation gimmick, then that's even more reason to just make a legit new Metroid character, even if Ridley in particular wasn't deemed doable at the time.

Sheik's a weird case since she's popular just because of one Smash game and one Smash game only. She's definitely one of the more visible symptoms of the whole Smash series being a bit stuck in its ways.

A newcomer selection closer to 4 would have made a lot of great characters more likely, Champions perhaps among them. Agreed that Mipha and Urbosa are the clear two that would get in.

I know BotW has become its own sub-franchise and all, but I still think future-proofing by excluding one-shots or characters exclusive to a "saga" is more reasonable. There would be no more confusion as to why a character like Sheik is still around for more recent Zelda fans.

I find that Mario Kart comparison to be ineffective; an inessential, filler PC in Mario Kart is not comparable at all to such a character making it into a big, allstar crossover. Also, PP barely making it in as a wacky, free bonus character screams more "low-priority filler making it in due to circumstantial factors" than "was a long time coming" IMO.

I'd argue that many of Mario's enemies are all-stars in their own right though. Even more than the heroes in some entire video game franchises. You can't think of Mario without thinking of Goombas and Koopas, whereas Blins in Zelda and Starmen in EarthBound, while marketed quite a bit, aren't really "all-star" level.

And again, at least they're main series characters unlike Waluigi and Geno.

I don't think that to be more than a superficial comparison...it's eerily similar to the "all sword users are the same" mantra.

Lyn's projectiles would come from a bow and therefore function much differently than Mythra's.
Lyn would have way more of the illusion/pseudo-warp stuff, perhaps following her GBA crit animations if they need some more flare for it.
The katana-like style could be made into a much different brand of fighting.

Also, Lyn would not be part of a transformation gimmick, anyway. Even if you think her style similar to Mythra, Lyn wouldn't be balancing that against a slower, stronger counterpart; she would be all speed, all the time.

Touché. But at least I'm being more specific than "all sword users are the same". I stand by my opinion that Ganondorf with magic+more sword would be a Sephiroth ripoff, while Ganondorf with just more sword would be an Ike ripoff.

Before you say "clones/echoes", clones are fine since they explicitly take less development time. Making a character from the ground up just for them to be similar to another is a waste no matter how you slice it.

As best I can remember, I think the Robin-Lucina double reveal started stirring some FE disdain, though it was much quieter than it would later be. Remember that Lucina was featured prominently in the trailer at a time when the disposition towards clones was overall more negative, the pair subverted expectations by excluding Chrom, and with Ike already revealed at the time it bumped the total FE count up to four when people were used to it having just two reps (and perhaps expecting it to have just two reps with the guess of Chrom "replacing" Ike). When they tripled and quadrupled down with Roy and Corrin in DLC, it gave those more edible complaints from base some more fuel to fire with. Maybe if they had started the "Echo" marketing back then for Lucina and not brought Roy back, then Corrin would've been more readily accepted.

At least now we know that clones of any kind take less development time.

Despite being a Blue Lions player, I think I thought Edelgard was the best pick for Smash at the time. I was fine with Byleth as the TH rep; however, I didn't really like the multi-weapon moveset so much. It's not like awful or anything, and TH is all about the weapon/class customization, but I would've preferred something else for the moveset if it absolutely had to be Byleth.

But overall, I personally was quite satisfied with Byleth given the very low expectations I had for that reveal going in.

I also expected and still would have preferred our red axe-wielding morally ambiguous emperor. She's the one who introduced the game in the first place. The totally-not-a-Persona-protagonist Byleth works as a POV character in their game, not so much as a Smash fighter.

To be fair, Impa does put in quite a bit of work in Skyward Sword and at least a decent bit in Ocarina, too.

All she does is put up a barrier to stall for time in the former and teach you a song in the latter. That's not "quite a bit" or a "decent bit".

Impa would be pretty attractive as a new "make things up" character though, but she can't be a super-canon-compliant Villager or Inkling.

And on Ganondorf not having enough "recurring" moves:
It seems to me that moves being recurring in the home series should not really be an issue, especially for villains whose movesets are mostly pulled from endgame boss fights. Like, K. Rool still uses his boxing glove and whatnot.

Yeah, but K. Rool is so demented and wacky that pulling random things out kinda works for him.

Could you honestly imagine Ganondorf pulling out his claymore, trident, twin small swords, stolen Sage sword, energy balls, and phantom summons all in one moveset?

For what it's worth, I think quite a few of the picks you mentioned were revealed as Assist Trophies early on, shooting down any hope of them getting in as a proper Fighter fairly quickly. In fact, Ultimate had a lot of would-be picks who were Assists, as well as Spirits (before Min Min disproved that they should be discounted), so in that sense, the pool of classic picks really did seem dry throughout Ultimate's DLC cycle. Of course, it should be a clean slate going into Smash6.

NGL, I really hope "Assists can't be fighters" gets broken next Smash. If we get an Assist that becomes DLC later on, their Assist form can be temporarily turned off as long as they're part of the battle. No use keeping that limitation up when we have an obvious solution.

 

[SPEN18]

Mario character selection has developed a "wait and see" pattern. Bowser Jr. waited until Smash 4 despite being heavily pushed as a new main character in 2002's Sunshine before Brawl. Rosalina got in after being the bonus playable character in 3DW.

Disagree on this one. Rosalina was a definite "relevancy" pick in 4 and was too recent for Brawl, so there was no purposeful "wait-and-see" there.
Jr. I think is just valued less highly by Sakurai and Nintendo than he is the fanbase; after all, he was one of the last newcomers for base 4 even.

Pokémon, Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade have the whole "rotating cast" thing where newer iterations are likely to get a character, but it seems only Fire Emblem, as stated before, gets special treatment being the only franchise to get "recent game advertising" picks.

Disagree that FE is the only one that gets "recent game advertising picks."
Lucario, Greninja, and Incineroar were all added to the project plan prior to their respective games' releases, and were there explicitly to market those new games.
Xeno2 just had funky timing; otherwise it would've been the same sort of look in adding Pyra/Mythra.

I know BotW has become its own sub-franchise and all, but I still think future-proofing by excluding one-shots or characters exclusive to a "saga" is more reasonable. There would be no more confusion as to why a character like Sheik is still around for more recent Zelda fans.

I too prefer greatly that they take the "wait-and-see" approach with newer and one-off characters. At this point, however, I think BotW's legacy is pretty safe; and especially as I advocate for going back to classic Link, it should be repped in some way (even if they kept BotW Link, the game is so big and well-received that an exclusive rep is not out of the question at all anyway IMO).

Even if the Champions were never to receive any more marketing past this point, I'd still feel comfortable with one on the roster as they are the most logical BotW reps IMO, and did enough in their time to secure a legacy.

BotW is a special game and a special case.

I'd argue that many of Mario's enemies are all-stars in their own right though

They are highly recognizable, maybe even iconic in the extreme cases of, like, the Goombas, but that doesn't make them "allstars."

They still don't have any actually important roles for the most part.

I agree that not being mainline or having starring roles is one of the main arguments against the likes of Waluigi and Geno. I still think Waluigi being a more consistently playable and popular character is just enough to justify him (same applies to Daisy). I also lower the bar a bit since it's Mario, but not so low as to include all the mooks.
I don't support Geno, though.

At least now we know that clones of any kind take less development time.

In fairness, some people who were opposed to Lucina (and/or Dark Pit, Dr. Mario) IIRC just preferred a clone from another series. Maybe one with more of a perception of being underrepped, which was also a bigger deal to more people back then.

I also expected and still would have preferred our red axe-wielding morally ambiguous emperor. She's the one who introduced the game in the first place

Yeah Edelgard was, at least in my perception, the clear marketing favorite in the leadup to the game; Black Eagles I feel was the route they wanted to nudge more people to play first (in spite of feeling that way I still picked BL). Probably for people to first see Edelgard as a "protagonist" and then after doing some other routes come to see more of her "true colors" (which maybe not so incidentally were red and black, while the more "traditional good guy" look went to the blue boys and gals, those with the traditional color of player units in FE).

It's pretty funny how much people wanted the female axe lord prior to TH, too. Would've been cool to see that realized in Smash.

All she does is put up a barrier to stall for time in the former and teach you a song in the latter

I think that's majorly underselling her role in both games.
If you were just talking about pulling things for the moveset, though, then see below.

Impa would be pretty attractive as a new "make things up" character though, but she can't be a super-canon-compliant Villager or Inkling.

Sure, they would probably have to make up some moves. But I don't think that's an issue for a character like this who provides a pretty clear idea of how, generally, they would/could fight.

Could you honestly imagine Ganondorf pulling out his claymore, trident, twin small swords, stolen Sage sword, energy balls, and phantom summons all in one moveset?

All, no. Some, yeah.

He's pretty maniacal himself, so him pulling out a couple of different tricks in one moveset wouldn't be too far out there IMO.

NGL, I really hope "Assists can't be fighters" gets broken next Smash. If we get an Assist that becomes DLC later on, their Assist form can be temporarily turned off as long as they're part of the battle. No use keeping that limitation up when we have an obvious solution.

Yeah, it's just a made-up rule that I highly doubt the developers actually take into consideration. But it being broken would ease some fan perception and prevent ATs from being such a terribly unfounded hindrance to a character's support.

 

[Yamat08]

I too prefer greatly that they take the "wait-and-see" approach with newer and one-off characters. At this point, however, I think BotW's legacy is pretty safe; and especially as I advocate for going back to classic Link, it should be repped in some way (even if they kept BotW Link, the game is so big and well-received that an exclusive rep is not out of the question at all anyway IMO).

Even if the Champions were never to receive any more marketing past this point, I'd still feel comfortable with one on the roster as they are the most logical BotW reps IMO, and did enough in their time to secure a legacy.

BotW is a special game and a special case.

As someone who constantly brings up roster bloat, it is a bit unexpected to see you advocate for having both classic Link and BOTW Link. Though speaking of classic Link, isn't that exactly what Young Link is? Sure, the Deku Shield might allude to his N64 incarnation specifically, but Sakurai did state that he made a young variation because Link actually was a kid in pretty much every Zelda title prior to Ocarina of Time (with I think Adventure of Link being the sole exception, being confirmed 16 in that game).

 

[DarthEnderX]

Edit: doublepost

 

[DarthEnderX]

As for other stuff that became canon, there was the Bison Troopers and Sawada from the Street Fighter movie game, the Cyborg from the SFII interactive movie game, Shin from Street Fighter Online: Mouse Generation, and even Kyle from Final Fight Streetwise.

Here's a complete list of entries for anyone interested:

Spoiler

000: Intro
001: Yamato Nadeshiko
002: Gou Hibiki
003: Don Sauvage
004: The Masters Family
005: Sodom
006: Rose
007: Mike Haggar
008: Delta Red
009: Rufus
010: Retsu
011: Geki
012: Joe
013: Mike
014: Birdie
015: Eagle
016: Lee
017: Gen
018: Adon
019: Sagat
020: Gorbachev
021: Azam
022: Tom
023: Patricia
024: El Fuerte
025: Gouken
026: Akuma
027: Goutetsu
028: Dorai
029: Demon Coach Yoko
030: Sunrise Nishisenba
031: Maple Storm
032: Raika
033: Fuka
034: Vivian Nishiki
035: Pepe Ishiwata
036: Cyborg
037: Carlos Miyamoto
038: Maki Genryusai
039: Guy
040: Byron Taylor
041: Yun
042: Yang
043: Q
044: Oro
045: The Matsuda Family
046: Makoto
047: Elena
048: Dudley
049: Sarai Kurosawa
050: Scott
051: Max
052: Necro
053: Remy
Extra: Don-chan
054: Hugo
055: Poison
056: Seth
057: Cody
058: Blanka
059: Damnd
060: Thunder Hawk
061: Arroyo Hawk
062: Blade
063: Arcane
064: Khyber
065: F7
066: C. Viper
067: Hanna Ackerson
068: Fei-Long
069: E. Honda
070: Hinagiku & Kunoichi Troops
071: Dee Jay
072: Dan Hibiki
073: Rolento
074: Sakura Kasugano
075: Prophetic Warrior
076: Hakan
077: Gill
078: Enero
079: Février
080: März
081: Aprile
082: Satsuki
083: Juni
084: Juli
085: Santamu
086: Xiayu
087: Jianyu
088: Noembelu
089: Decapre
090: Police Squad
091: Paulk Hogen
092: Ed
093: Abel
094: Smolt Raven
095: Li-Fen
096: Eddie E
097: Abigail
098: Belger
099: David
100: Ryu
101: Evil Ryu
102: Ken Masters
103: Brain-washed Ken
104: Chun-Li
105: Zangief
106: Dhalsim
107: Nash
108: Karin Kanzuki
109: Shibasaki
110: Birdie
111: Rainbow Mika
112: Vega
113: M. Bison
114: Rashid
115: Necalli
116: Laura
117: F.A.N.G.
118: Emperor Nakan
119: Eleven
120: Twelve
121: Doctor Woo
Extra: D.D.
Extra: Luke
Extra: Ingrid
122: Apprentice Dolls
123: Mary
124: Reiko
125: Cammy
126: Siva
127: Kanzuki Daigenjuro
Extra: Kevin Striker
Extra: Dr. Jose
128: Simone
129: Christina
130: Masaru
131: Helen
132: Shadaloo Medic
133: Shadaloo Low Rank Soldiers
134: Shadaloo Mid Rank Soldiers
135: Shadaloo High Rank Soldiers
136: Jagjhid
137: Amitabu
138: Mahabari G
139: Sheera
140: Dr. Gulabjamun
141: Master Y
142: Kolin
143: International Coalition Forces
144: Ngu Hao Members
145: Zeku
146: Effie
147: Momotaru
148: Baus
149: Beard
150: Ruby
151: Anna
152: Julia
153: Lilly
154: Toli
155: Fair Libra
156: Tonfa
157: Rifa
158: Alex
159: Guile
160: Ibuki
161: Balrog
162: Juri
163: Urien
Extra: Shadow
Extra: Shadow Lady
164: Tom's Friends
Extra: Zen & Singh
165: Darun Mister
166: Doctrine Dark
167: Pullum Purna
168: Blair Dame
169: Hokuto
170: Bloody Hokuto
171: Kanzuki Family Ninja Army
172: Juni
173: Kairi
174: Kairi
175: Allen Snider
176: Jack
177: Skullomania
178: Garuda
179: Nanase
180: Hayate
181: Kei Chitose
182: Vulcano Rosso
183: Area
184: Shadowgeist
185: Sharon
186: Cycloid Gamma
187: Cycloid Beta
188: Ace
189: Yuta Homura
190: Tsukushi Kasugano
191: Houmei
192: Shaomei
193: Ishizaki
Extra: Dark Sakura
194: Lucia
195: Dean
196: Jessica
197: Rick
198: J
199: Two P
200: Phantom Bison
201: Jake
202: Simons
203: Dug
204: Bred
205: El Gado
206: Hollywood
207: Roxy
208: Axl
209: Slash
210: Wong Who
211: Bill Bull
212: G. Oriber
213: Oni
Extra: P-Mech Zangie-F
214: Bratken
215: Freddie
216: Phillipe
217: Retu
218: Won Won
219: Kyle
Extra: Yuriko Hibiki
220: Dave Spender
And here are the profiles that have yet to be translated into English:
221: Gillian Leigh
222: Captain Sawada
223: Wayne Nakamura
224: Kenichi Kakutani
225: Somsak
226: Gerald Golby
227: Melike
228: Hakan's Daughters
229: Meteorito Jr.
230: Antler Inoki
231: Demon Machami
232: Shin
233: Elena's Family
234: Maggio
235: Eliza
236: Mary
237: Menat
238: Eric
239: Joe
240: Eliot
241: Mark
242: Elias
243: Jack
244: Mic
245: Bill
246: Atlas
247: Jhonny
248: Shot
249: Eli Joe
250: Dave
251: Callman
252: Caine
253: Drake
254: Wong
255: Stray
256: Black
257: Hunter
258: Joe
259: Arby
260: Billy
261: Rick
262: G
263: Fritz
264: Johnny
265: Fat Jack
266: Dirk
267: May
268: Ray
269: Falke

and even made a few characters from the Street Fighter cartoon canon).

Not really. The entries for the cartoon characters were April Fools jokes.

 

[Stratos]

At Arms we all believed that Spring Man was the protagonist, but in the end they are all protagonists. Spring Man came to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate as an Assist Trophy and Min Min was the one who came in as a newcomer. Some people think that Spring Man is the mascot of the Arms, but this is not certain and as for the next Super Smash Bros game. they hope to see him as a newcomer.

 

[fogbadge]

i think the idea that rotating casts mean always getting a new comer is disproven by the fact that XBX never got anything even though it was in the right postion to get something, same with FE echoes

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't know either, but it's not really dead man's volley if it doesn't ping-pong. It probably would never be included if it can't have that property.

I agree with you that it doesn't make a lot of sense on his current moveset, I just don't feel that it would be another shadow ball if he did have it.

I'm really hoping that BotW 2 gives Ganondorf some cool stuff to pull from, and then maybe there would be a revamped moveset that makes more sense. At the moment, there isn't one that would really feel right to me.

Honestly giving Ganondorf the dead man's volley right now in his current moveset would be a literal death sentence on the character. He's already crippled enough as is, historically one of Smash's worst characters three games in a row even, now you want to give him a projectile that can be send back at him ?

 

[JOJONumber691]

Honestly giving Ganondorf the dead man's volley right now in his current moveset would be a literal death sentence on the character. He's already crippled enough as is, historically one of Smash's worst characters three games in a row even, now you want to give him a projectile that can be send back at him ?

Give him the Fire Bats or have him borrow from Denise (the reason why he even exists) and Chuck a sword beam or two.

 

[fogbadge]

Give him the Fire Bats or have him borrow from Denise (the reason why he even exists) and Chuck a sword beam or two.

theres about a hundred different jokes you can make with that typo

 

[chocolatejr9]

Not really. The entries for the cartoon characters were April Fools jokes.

Actually, no they weren't. You can tell because their profiles were never deleted, unlike the actual April Fools profiles (Sheng Long and that one card guy).

 

[DarthEnderX]

Actually, no they weren't. You can tell because their profiles were never deleted

Dude, they were posted on April 1st, like, a year after they'd stop doing those articles. They were clearly April Fool's jokes. Them not deleting it afterwards doesn't mean anything.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Dude, they were posted on April 1st, like, a year after they'd stop doing those articles. They were clearly April Fool's jokes. Them not deleting it afterwards doesn't mean anything.

First off, only one of them was posted on April Fools (the other was posted on the 15th). Secondly, these are clearly meant to be serious profiles, unlike the ACTUAL April Fools profiles, so my point still stands.