Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Kirbeh]

I'd love chief (haloid fans rise up), but his competition internally is pretty fierce at this point. As much as I'm lukewarm on the idea I really do think Dovahkin is the dark horse here that everyone is sleeping on. Skyrim hit Japan compared to how it hit the western gaming market; I've even seen it referenced in media like Pop Team Epic years after the fact. While I think the two green space marine guys and the bandicoot are inevitable they might have to cower before the might before the first western RPG Swordsman in Smash.

The Todd posting that day will be glorious

Skyrim McDragonborn in Smash: Unpolished and prone to cause glitches but somehow top tier.

Todd: "It just works"

 

[dream1ng]

So what does everyone think about Smash potentially aiming to represent as many different game genres as possible as the basis for character selection and prioritizing adding characters that are seen as the face of their respective genres? So, for example, Mario is the face of platformers, Ryu is the face of fighting games and Cloud is seen as the face of JRPGs. By extension, either Master Chief or Doomslayer would be great options to serve as the face of the FPS genre. Of course, that wouldn’t be the only basis for adding characters but it could be a fun side goal when it comes to consideration.

I think their current method of choosing third-parties, whatever (apart from fan demand) prompts them in those directions, isn't broken, so probably won't be fixed. Smash has never really concerned itself with representing all genres as much as just different notable series, and I don't imagine that changes.

However, the further we get, obviously the likelier it is new genres get folded in. I would be surprised if the next game came and went without an FPS character, for instance. Not because they were trying to include an FPS character specifically, but just because they decided on Master Chief, or Doom Slayer, or whoever it may be.

And that goes for any unrepresented genre: battle royale, MOBA, hero shooter, MMO, soulslike, roguelike, music/rhythm, beat em up, horror, visual novel, etc. If we get a character from those genres, it will probably be for the character/series, not so the genre gets ticked off.

Plus, for as many new genres as could be included, never bet against JRPGs.

 

[Opossum]

It also doesn't help that on a conceptual level, video game genres vary wildly in perception between the west and Japan. Probably the most prominent example being Smash itself: it and other fighting games tend to just get categorized under the "action game" label.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I would be surprised if the next game came and went without an FPS character

I wouldn't.

 

[Gengar84]

Yeah, I agree that the character is the most important thing in the end. If a genre doesn’t have a character people care about, I wouldn’t want them to force it just for the sake of representation. Though if a character is already really popular and also represents a genre new to Smash, that could give them a slight boost in consideration. I just think that could be a neat extension to the whole “celebration of gaming” theme.

 

[dream1ng]

I wouldn't.

Yeah that accounts for the first five games

 

[Guynamednelson]

Yeah that accounts for the first five games

And last time I checked, it's still got a Japanese director directing Japanese people on how to make his Japanese game.

 

[dream1ng]

Yeah, I agree that the character is the most important thing in the end. If a genre doesn’t have a character people care about, I wouldn’t want them to force it just for the sake of representation. Though if a character is already really popular and also represents a genre new to Smash, that could give them a slight boost in consideration. I just think that could be a neat extension to the whole “celebration of gaming” theme.

People make too much out of the "celebration of gaming". The cast of 89 has 87 Japanese or Japanese-owned characters, 71 of whom are Nintendo's. And of the two western characters, one used to be owned by Nintendo. It's never tried to achieve parity.

It's a celebration of Nintendo, featuring other notable video game characters.

 

[Idon]

It also doesn't help that on a conceptual level, video game genres vary wildly in perception between the west and Japan. Probably the most prominent example being Smash itself: it and other fighting games tend to just get categorized under the "action game" label.

Actually the most prominent example is Sifu being a fighting game according to the game awards.

 

[Gengar84]

People make too much out of the "celebration of gaming". The cast of 89 has 87 Japanese or Japanese-owned characters, 71 of whom are Nintendo's. And of the two western characters, one used to be owned by Nintendo. It's never tried to achieve parity.

It's a celebration of Nintendo, featuring other notable video game characters.

Hey, I didn’t make up that description. Yeah, Smash is still currently very Japan focused but I could see them expanding their reach to something more global. It’s just a gut feeling but I feel like Steve and Banjo was just opening that door. I agree Smash will always lean towards Japanese characters considering Nintendo is a Japanese company but I feel it would be a good idea to branch out. For reference, Brawl only had two third party characters at all but that greatly expanded over time. I feel like the same could happen with characters made outside of Japan. Time will tell though.

 

[Kirbeh]

'd by dreaming.

It was a comment about how it feels like a celebration after having gathered all those big name guests together along with Nintendo's own. It a byproduct not a goal or promise of the series future direction. The way some fans chose to run with it isn't what we're going to get.

They'll absolutely add some more big name guests next time but that's just business as usual.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The way some fans chose to run with it isn't what we're going to get.

Some people really need to remember it was stated in the presentation for Byleth, not Steve.

 

[Kirbeh]

Some people really need to remember it was stated in the presentation for Byleth, not Steve.

Which presentation it was said in hardly matters, people would've still run with whatever they decided to interpret it as.

The Smash fanbase has a history of looking into his wording too deeply to try and find what they want to see. Doesn't even have to be something he said. It could be the translation like with the "good boys and girls" comment. Or he doesn't have to say anything at all (chairs anyone?)

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Yeah, I don't think we'll get an FPS character necessarily because of the "celebration of gaming" angle, but moreso because that's just some of Microsoft's biggest names as one of if not THE biggest collaborators Nintendo is working with.

Like you don't get much bigger than Microsoft and Halo and DOOM are pretty damn big names in their arsenal lol

 

[Gengar84]

I think there’s room for Smash to be both a celebration of Nintendo themselves and gaming as a whole. Part of the reason I advocate for another RARE character is specifically because of their history with Nintendo. I think that relationship with Nintendo would be the primary reason we could potentially see another character. A lot of Nintendo fans like myself grew up playing their games exclusively on Nintendo consoles and they played a pretty big part in making the game selection on those consoles as good as they were. At the same time, a lot of people would be excited to see their favorite characters that are more mainstream and relevant today even with weaker connections to Nintendo. Nintendo themselves still have a lot of exciting options too.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I’m not sure if I’m in the minority here but I hope Link goes back to his classic green tunic and cap as his default in the next Smash. To me, his Ocarina of Time design is my favorite and will always be the first thing I think of when I think of Link. His blue shirt from BotW and TotK were cool for a change but I don’t really want that to become his main design going forward. I’m also hoping he gets his hookshot back in Smash because it was one of the things that made him stand out and fun to play in my opinion.

I feel it wouldn’t be the default for recency bias but I think they should include the other adult links as alts.

I think just two separate links (Link and Toon Link) is enough outside of the context of Ultimate.

 

[Kirbeh]

I think there’s room for Smash to be both a celebration of Nintendo themselves and gaming as a whole. Part of the reason I advocate for another RARE character is specifically because of their history with Nintendo. I think that relationship with Nintendo would be the primary reason we could potentially see another character. A lot of Nintendo fans like myself grew up playing their games exclusively on Nintendo consoles and they played a pretty big part in making the game selection on those consoles as good as they were. At the same time, a lot of people would be excited to see their favorite characters that are more mainstream and relevant today even with weaker connections to Nintendo. Nintendo themselves still have a lot of exciting options too.

I think the main issue that I find with describing it this way is that Smash is and has already been a celebration of gaming. I'm all in favor of expanding that scope into some more lesser known JP third parties or some more western ones. A lot of the time though (and this isn't directed at you, you obviously don't do this) you get people that have made up an idea in their head of what a "celebration of gaming" should be and claim that Smash is failing to do so for not including x or y, when it should be obvious that they'll never be able to include absolutely everything.

 

[Gengar84]

I think you all could very well be right about Sakurai’s celebration of gaming comment not really meaning much beyond a description of what he’s already added. Truthfully, I feel the same way. However, I still think it would be a good goal to strive for even if that wasn’t the original intention of the comment. More variety is always a good thing in my eyes and there’s something cool about seeing characters from all over the world get the chance to join Smash.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Don't know what people are waffling about.
Both Smash For and Ultimate added a FPS character. :V

 

[Louie G.]

I wouldn't.

I think we reach a point where this just isn't a really viable argument anymore, to be honest.

First and third person shooters are maybe the most dominant genre in the industry worldwide. Many of those games do see moderate success in Japan - battle royales, hero shooters etc. Certain stars and stripes, war torn games like Call of Duty have virtually no overseas appeal, and games like Halo were kneecapped by circumstance (being on unpopular consoles), but the FPS genre isn't so inherently obscured or irrelevant in Japan where we can cast this kind of umbrella.

As for the "celebration of gaming" stuff, I try not to put a lot of stock into it, but I think it would be beneficial of them to look toward underpresented game types regardless. You can tap into new audiences that way and get to explore game mechanics that haven't been interpreted into Smash yet. There's a lot of value in that, more than simply contributing to the vast gaming museum that Smash has shaped up to be... I'm not swayed by that angle too much anymore myself, but there are certain blind spots that I think Smash would benefit from exploring anyway.

 

[Gengar84]

And I totally didn’t bring this up because a lot of my most wanted characters just happen to be from genres new to Smash. That’s a complete coincidence.

 

[Kirbeh]

Don't know what people are waffling about.
Both Smash For and Ultimate added a FPS character. :V

Don't forget Yoshi's Safari.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Don't know what people are waffling about.
Both Smash For and Ultimate added a FPS character. :V

I dunno why but the first thing this made me think of was Krazy Kong Klamour from DK64.

Maybe been watching too many Randomizer races lol

 

[ninjahmos]

I still think characters from franchises with more "arcade-style" genres (beat 'em up/hack and slash, shoot 'em up/run and gun/rail shooter, racing, etc.) wouldn't feel so out of place, especially considering who we already have in Smash.

 

[Speed Weed]

If the problem with adding a shooter character is that most of its games aren't popular in Japan, then the solution is simple: add a character from a Japanese shooter.

THAT'S RIGHT BABY IT'S TIME FOR EARTH DEFENSE FORCE #EDF4SMASH

 

[Louie G.]

A lot of characters I'd really like are from new genres too. Maybe by proxy, I'm just a bit unlucky with some of the genres I enjoy and where Smash's priorities have lain, but I think there's probably something to be said about the excitement interpreting some of those new ideas into Smash would bring.

Puzzle, FPS, Rhythm, SHMUP, Horror, Visual Novel... honestly, all have pretty evocative and realizable potential if you think about it for even just a minute.

Tons of untapped potential. Obviously the individual characters should carry themselves over simply being a vessel for genre, but I think someone like Arle or Master Chief shines a lot more on the front that there really is nobody else like them in the game right now. That kind of freshness is the main thing I'm looking for going into next game.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Whatever happens, I don't want the new DK design in Smash. That would be terrible.

Sounds like you want Ultimate Deluxe then!

I'll just go ahead and sign your name to the petition.

Even the Street Fighter series embraced the design of their anime movie at some point.

sigh Man, I wish they'd do that again. I have no fondness for SF6's "realistic" character models.

I would be surprised if the next game came and went without an FPS character, for instance.

Dark Samus: "Am I a joke to you?"

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sounds like you want Ultimate Deluxe then!

I'll just go ahead and sign your name to the petition.

Err wel yeah. Ultimate DK looked quite good. However I also don't think Smash had DK's design right quite often.

Smash 64 and Smash 4 DK looked quite bad in my opinion. Brawl looking the finest and Melee afterwards.

 

[Stratos]

One character from a sports video game that I can think of is Power Pro-kun from the Power Pros video game series, who was also featured in DreamMix TV World Fighters.

 

[Gengar84]

Sounds like you want Ultimate Deluxe then!

I'll just go ahead and sign your name to the petition.

sigh Man, I wish they'd do that again. I have no fondness for SF6's "realistic" character models.

Dark Samus: "Am I a joke to you?"

I completely agree on Street Fighter. I’m not really a fan of what the characters themselves look like. I preferred the more stylistic designs of previous games. Though I do think some of the outfits in 6 like Juri’s and Cammy’s are great.

 

[DynamicSmasher]

A lot of characters I'd really like are from new genres too. Maybe by proxy, I'm just a bit unlucky with some of the genres I enjoy and where Smash's priorities have lain, but I think there's probably something to be said about the excitement interpreting some of those new ideas into Smash would bring.

Puzzle, FPS, Rhythm, SHMUP, Horror, Visual Novel... honestly, all have pretty evocative and realizable potential if you think about it for even just a minute.

Tons of untapped potential. Obviously the individual characters should carry themselves over simply being a vessel for genre, but I think someone like Arle or Master Chief shines a lot more on the front that there really is nobody else like them in the game right now. That kind of freshness is the main thing I'm looking for going into next game.

For the most part, I'm in agreement with you. That being said though, I can see how it might be hard to represent, the 'feel' of say puzzle or visual novel games compared to platformers or action games. It's far from impossible- MvC3 for example had Phoenix Wright and kept the feeling of him floundering until he found the right evidence- but I can see it taking longer to envisage their movesets.

 

[Louie G.]

For the most part, I'm in agreement with you. That being said though, I can see how it might be hard to represent, the 'feel' of say puzzle or visual novel games compared to platformers or action games. It's far from impossible- MvC3 for example had Phoenix Wright and kept the feeling of him floundering until he found the right evidence- but I can see it taking longer to envisage their movesets.

Visual Novels for sure, but Puzzle seems pretty self explanatory to me. Smash has plenty of quirky characters who use weird projectiles, just have those projectiles falling vertically downward instead of moving horizontally. Craft them as the ultimate projectile trap character, expert at stage control and ledge guarding at the expense of their horizontal range in comparison to other zoners. You're gonna have to be a lot more abstract with most VNs, 100%, but at least must puzzle game characters have something concrete and physical to work with.

In the case of IMO the most sensible choice, Arle from Puyo Puyo, it helps that she's also a mage and has a small companion in her friend Carbuncle for disjointed partner attacks. The foundation can be the more concept-driven puzzle game stuff and the fluff can be filled out quite easily with a character who has shown a penchant for fighting already. The game also has a combo / chain system that feels like a no-brainer mechanic to implement into a game like Smash.

I'm sure the idea of a puzzle game character has passed Sakurai's mind more than a couple times. The dude is clearly a big Panel de Pon fan so I'd be pretty surprised if Lip was never conceptualized in his mind, and just never saw the light of day because she's been a JP exclusive character for most of her existence. I'm hoping next game he can use some of that to conceptualize Arle or even just finally bring Lip in if he wants.

 

[Schnee117]

Visual Novel characters really just depend on the character and the series they're from.

Like sure Ayumi has little to work with but if you go to Fate or Tsukihime or Witch on the Holy Night or Umineko then you have tons to work with to make a moveset.

 

[Gengar84]

I’m curious if they’d go with Suzuha from Steins;Gate over Okabe or Makise just because she has actual combat experience. She’s not exactly one of the main protagonists but she is still central to the plot. I suspect she’s still less likely than either of them in the event that we did get a Steins;Gate character. Any of the three of them would be great.

 

[BuckleyTim]

Visual Novel characters really just depend on the character and the series they're from.

Like sure Ayumi has little to work with but if you go to Fate or Tsukihime or Witch on the Holy Night or Umineko then you have tons to work with to make a moveset.

...put Beatrice in.

 

[DynamicSmasher]

Visual Novel characters really just depend on the character and the series they're from.

Like sure Ayumi has little to work with but if you go to Fate or Tsukihime or Witch on the Holy Night or Umineko then you have tons to work with to make a moveset.

That's a good point actually. I guess I tend to think of mystery games(e.g Ace Attorney) or dating sims/dating sim parodies(like Doki Doki Literature Club) when I think of VNs. Someone like Shiro or Saber or Shiki or Arcueid wouldn't really have a problem in a fight(though they might bring some anime swordfighter complaints lol)

Visual Novels for sure, but Puzzle seems pretty self explanatory to me. Smash has plenty of quirky characters who use weird projectiles, just have those projectiles falling vertically downward instead of moving horizontally. Craft them as the ultimate projectile trap character, expert at stage control and ledge guarding at the expense of their horizontal range in comparison to other zoners. You're gonna have to be a lot more abstract with most VNs, 100%, but at least must puzzle game characters have something concrete and physical to work with.

In the case of IMO the most sensible choice, Arle from Puyo Puyo, it helps that she's also a mage and has a small companion in her friend Carbuncle for disjointed partner attacks. The foundation can be the more concept-driven puzzle game stuff and the fluff can be filled out quite easily with a character who has shown a penchant for fighting already. The game also has a combo / chain system that feels like a no-brainer mechanic to implement into a game like Smash.

I'm sure the idea of a puzzle game character has passed Sakurai's mind more than a couple times. The dude is clearly a big Panel de Pon fan so I'd be pretty surprised if Lip was never conceptualized in his mind, and just never saw the light of day because she's been a JP exclusive character for most of her existence. I'm hoping next game he can use some of that to conceptualize Arle or even just finally bring Lip in if he wants.

With projectile characters, there's the risk of making them too obnoxious and campy. That being said, we have Duck Hunt with a whole moveset of projectile attacks. I guess the placing down projectiles could build off Steve with his own building abilities- though hopefully not as overwhelming as Steve can be at times.

 

[Louie G.]

With projectile characters, there's the risk of making them too obnoxious and campy.

Sure, but for better or worse that has never stopped Smash before lol. I think there are many ways to handle it without that being the case, though.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

With projectile characters, there's the risk of making them too obnoxious and campy

I feel like that's why lot of projectile heavy characters excluding maybe Mega Man have good to decent CQC tools.

Ironically the characters that camp the most (Sonic, Steve, Min Min) aren't projectile heavy characters. Steve has Minecart but that's not the main reason for his campy playstyle.

One fact is that Cloud is the first sword character to have a projectile where it's not a main focus. The only ones that did back then had it as major part of their character such as the Links and Robin. The rest didn't have one like how it was excluded from Ike's moveset.

 

[Laniv]

Don't forget Yoshi's Safari.

Do the Breegull Blaster segments in Tooie make count