Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[GoldenYuiitusin]

For the video games, sure. But the card games?

Touche :V

 

[ninjahmos]

How about Captain Commando?

Oh, and they should include this song:

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Oh, and they should include this song:

I can imagine the mii costume dlc trailer in my head.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

God I wish I could have some other Pokemon I have the tiniest bit of faith in joining Smash that isn't from Gen 9.

I am not even sure if non-starters have a chance because the developers nowadays pick a Pokemon early in development. Lucario was lucky that it had a movie when Brawl was planned.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I am not even sure if non-starters have a chance because the developers nowadays pick a Pokemon early in development. Lucario was lucky that it had a movie when Brawl was planned.

It does make sense in my head, the starters are kinda the defacto protagonist, which is what smash usually does.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

It does make sense in my head, the starters are kinda the defacto protagonist, which is what smash usually does.

Although I feel it will start getting repetitive eventually.

 

[HyperSomari64]

For the video games, sure. But the card games?

As an item, I can see it to turn into the 'Mons first stage. But if it's used in other characters, it would turn them into older incarnations of them (8/16/32/64-bit versions), or transform them into Darwinian primates or whatever.
If there was a Mega Stone item,will DK's "Mega Evolution" be a naked Seth Rogen wearing the iconic tie, with his laugh as a taunt? :v

 

[Shinuto]

I am not even sure if non-starters have a chance because the developers nowadays pick a Pokemon early in development. Lucario was lucky that it had a movie when Brawl was planned.

THIIIIIIIIIISSSS....it's sooo boring. Lucario was an exception due to that time in pokemon franchise and smash series.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I am not even sure if non-starters have a chance because the developers nowadays pick a Pokemon early in development. Lucario was lucky that it had a movie when Brawl was planned.

They do.
It's just in the case of the Starters we got, they had concepts that were more appealing to Sakurai more as fighters than other options.

As much as some people want just some random thing like, say, Flamigo or Masbostiff, if they don't really stand out as concepts, they're not going to be given the time of day.

This is where, still using Gen 9 as an example, the likes of Ceruledge and Tinkaton shine despite not being Starters.

 

[Kirbeh]

While another starter does seem like a pretty safe choice, I have to wonder if our last two additions just so happened to also fulfill particular niches that worked for what Sakurai wanted.

Ninjas and wrestlers are staple fighting game archetypes after all. You could argue that Sheik and Bowser were already around but they don't fit those (traditional*) roles quite as neatly (well, Sheik is pretty darn close at least.)

I'm sure TPC and Nintendo are likely to push more favorably for a starter, but so long as there are a few other planned notable/big role Pokemon, I don't think a starter is necessarily a guarantee either.

Partly 'd

 

[fogbadge]

I think it’s a shame sakurai never seems to see fighter potential in the more unusually shaped Pokemon. I would have thought the unusual body types would really set them apart

 

[SPEN18]

Wrt Toad, Dee, Dixie, and (no-evos) Eevee, all are demonstrably popular and important, there is just a vocal subset of speculators that have decided to put them down for being allegedly boring, even in the face of any and all attempts to convey their respective hooks. Very possibly because they're all less on the end of being flashy or "cool," and possibly more on the straightforward end in core concept. Not that any of that should be any issue; if anything, we need characters like these who have that different vibe. Just some fans are less immediately inclined to it, very likely only until they see it in action.

With Impa, I think there are some who (I think unjustifiably) view her as little more than echo fodder (Dixie as well). But Impa is a little different than those above in that some are also unconvinced on her role importance and inconsistent portrayal.

With Kamek, I don't typically see anyone say his moveset options are uninteresting; I think it's just that, unlike the others above, there is a noticeable gap in popularity between him and the top same-franchise options, which probably hurts the gut reaction and sense of excitement a lot of people get when mulling the possibility of him. He also might share a bit of Impa's problem with his role importance being inconsistent and with him often being more of a background character in addition to the few times where he's a more major player.

 

[Guynamednelson]

As much as some people want just some random thing like, say, Flamigo or Masbostiff

Except that it's not always random stuff that people want when they say they want something that isn't a humanoid (remember, humanoid, not bipedal) starter.

When I rallied behind Mimikyu as a Gen 7 rep, it wasn't because it was my favorite from that generation, it was because it had the marketing for Sakurai to presumably consider it. And just because I underestimated Incineroar's marketing doesn't mean it literally had zero.

And said Pokemon Company marketing is why I'm adamant on Eevee being the key to Pokemon newcomers being more than just humanoid starters from the latest gen rather than something that's actually on a favorite Pokemon chart I've made, because, well, it has the marketing in The Year Of Our Lord 2024-soon-to-be-2025 for The Pokemon Company to say "hey while you're at it why not try making it a fighter too alongside your $CURRENT_GEN rep?" and Azumarill doesn't.

 

[Gengar84]

Except that it's not always random stuff that people want when they say they want something that isn't a humanoid (remember, humanoid, not bipedal) starter.

When I rallied behind Mimikyu as a Gen 7 rep, it wasn't because it was my favorite from that generation, it was because it had the marketing for Sakurai to presumably consider it. And just because I underestimated Incineroar's marketing doesn't mean it literally had zero.

And said Pokemon Company marketing is why I'm adamant on Eevee being the key to Pokemon newcomers being more than just humanoid starters from the latest gen rather than something that's actually on a favorite Pokemon chart I've made, because, well, it has the marketing in The Year Of Our Lord 2024-soon-to-be-2025 for The Pokemon Company to say "hey while you're at it why not try making it a fighter too alongside your $CURRENT_GEN rep?" and Azumarill doesn't.

I primarily support the Pokémon I do because they are my favorites. I’m just lucky a few of my favorites just happen to be pretty popular and pushed. The most obvious being Gengar. It’s one of the most popular Pokemon and has made it into every generation so far and has gotten both a Mega and a Gigantimax. Ceruledge might be my favorite Gen 9 Pokémon, at the very least in my top 3. Hisuian Zoroark is in my top 5 favorite Pokemon overall and was pretty pushed itself even getting its own mini series. The rest of my top 5 other than Gengar and Hisuian Zoroark don’t really have much a chance unfortunately (Cofagrigus, Golisopod, and Orbeetle).

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Dixie is one of the biggest and most popular characters in the DK series. She's been playable in several, was one of the main characters of DKC2 and Tropical Freeze, was the lead star of DKC3, and has appeared in many more since then as either either the secondary protagonist or a major supporting character. I definitely think she's notable and popular enough to make a major impact on Smash. Funky's popular for good reason and Cranky's arguably just as major of a player, too, so "sauce" or not, I definitely think all three have good reason to join the battle now that K. Rool has (and hopefully, he's among those here to stay for the next one).

Out of every character that could've joined Ultimate's roster but ultimately didn't, her absence was the only one that actually shocked me.

 

[Gengar84]

Dixie is one of the biggest and most popular characters in the DK series. She's been playable in several, was one of the main characters of DKC2 and Tropical Freeze, was the lead star of DKC3, and has appeared in many more since then as either either the secondary protagonist or a major supporting character. I definitely think she's notable and popular enough to make a major impact on Smash. Funky's popular for good reason and Cranky's arguably just as major of a player, too, so "sauce" or not, I definitely think all three have good reason to join the battle now that K. Rool has (and hopefully, he's among those here to stay for the next one).

Out of every character that could've joined Ultimate's roster but ultimately didn't, her absence was the only one that actually shocked me.

I’ll be content with the DK series if we get Dixie Kong and keep our current characters. Then we’d have all the playable characters of the first two DKC games as well as the main villain. I do want a particular moveset for Dixie but I’ll be happy to see her playable at all.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Then we’d have all the playable characters of the first two DKC games as well as the main villain.

This is Kiddy Kong erasure.

Or it would be if I could read. Never mind.

 

[Gengar84]

This is Kiddy Kong erasure.

Or it would be if I could read. Never mind.

We don’t speak about Kiddy Kong. Seriously though, I’d be down for a Dixie/Kiddy transform tag duo. My top choice is Dixie with an animal buddy focused moveset but I don’t think either is as likely as a Dixie solo semiclone. I seem to be the only one that wants those things anyways lol.

 

[Folezicle Lives!]

I mean if Takamaru wasn't added to Smash because he doesn't have any western presence and Sakurai has said before that he never would've added Lucas if he knew Mother 3 wasn't coming out in the West, I feel like it only makes sense to assume the inverse is also true, since it's a Japanese-made game for a Japanese market as well.

Also, Gears of War broke into the Japanese top 10 when it debuted in the country in like 2007 which is very impressive when you consider how western shooters typically go in Japan, so I wouldn't really say Gears is a complete unknown or anything.

Wow didn't know that about GoW. Not gonna lie I'd prefer Marcus over Chief. I actually doubt either will ever happen though. Never been a huge fan of either. If I had to pick a Microsoft character it'd be Jack of Blades from Fable or Razputin from Psychonauts. Neither will happen though.

 

[Laniv]

Dixie Kong
Bandana Waddle Dee
Toad
Kamek
Impa

Are these the characters that are uncountably popular and important but just lack sauce?!?

The fact that all of them (sans Kamek)* are among my most wanted characters

*Kamek is ranked, like, eighth

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

We don’t speak about Kiddy Kong.

We don't talk about Kiddy, no no no.

 

[RileyXY1]

Although in a break from tradition I believe that the new Pokémon rep will be DLC rather than base game due to timing issues.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Although in a break from tradition I believe that the new Pokémon rep will be DLC rather than base game due to timing issues.

I mean maybe if the character is from Gen 10, but I don't really see why that would be the case. Scarlet and Violet came out in November 2022, and assuming the project Sakurai has mentioned before that he worked on the project plan in late 2021/early 2022 is Smash, then he almost certainly would've had pre-release info from Pokemon Company for Gen 9.

Furthermore, assuming Studio S's announcement marks somewhere around the beginning of actual development, Studio S was announced two months after Teal Mask came out, so Gen 9 was still in full swing.

I could also see the scenario where Gen 9 is base game and Gen 10 is DLC, but that didn't go so well for Cinderace so I'm not sure if they'd do that lol

 

[Gengar84]

Wow didn't know that about GoW. Not gonna lie I'd prefer Marcus over Chief. I actually doubt either will ever happen though. Never been a huge fan of either. If I had to pick a Microsoft character it'd be Jack of Blades from Fable or Razputin from Psychonauts. Neither will happen though.

Microsoft actually owns a lot of my most wanted Smash characters. I’d love to see the Battletoads, Fulgore, Illidan Stormrage or Sarah Kerrigan. None of those are particularly likely either but I think there’s at least a case that could be made for any of them so I’m not totally ruling them out.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

They do.
It's just in the case of the Starters we got, they had concepts that were more appealing to Sakurai more as fighters than other options.

As much as some people want just some random thing like, say, Flamigo or Masbostiff, if they don't really stand out as concepts, they're not going to be given the time of day.

This is where, still using Gen 9 as an example, the likes of Ceruledge and Tinkaton shine despite not being Starters.

...Nobody's asking for Flamigo or Mabostiff though? Considering Ceruledge, Tinkaton, and a couple of the highlighted legendaries are what people are after, citing the "mostly just an animal" Pokémon of the region as examples of what people want is kinda disingenuous.

There is a small crowd who would like Sakurai to just go nuts on something weird, but keeping with Gen 9 examples, the hope in that scenario is something like Glimmora, not Oinkologne.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

...Nobody's asking for Flamigo or Mabostiff though? Considering Ceruledge, Tinkaton, and a couple of the highlighted legendaries are what people are after, citing the "mostly just an animal" Pokémon of the region as examples of what people want is kinda disingenuous.

There is a small crowd who would like Sakurai to just go nuts on something weird, but keeping with Gen 9 examples, the hope in that scenario is something like Glimmora, not Oinkologne.

It's called hyperbole. Look it up.

Also you were the one who brought up Masbostiff before, so....

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The fact that all of them (sans Kamek)* are among my most wanted characters

*Kamek is ranked, like, eighth

Yeah I legit want all of them.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Yeeah I also forgot Ryo was the dude's name. lol

I only know about Shenmue in passing.

You thought the main character's name was Shenmue? lol That's kind of funny.

His name is Ryo Hazuki.

Though I do love Shenmue, I'm not really interested in seeing it represented in Smash.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It's called hyperbole. Look it up.

Also you were the one who brought up Masbostiff before, so....

I'm fairly certain hyperbole when used in this way is more meant to paint an argument as ridiculous by bringing it to its extreme. Not saying you're actually trying to be nefarious here but like...yeah.

I did bring him up, but I also frequently think way more in depth about silly hypotheticals than I should. Even then my conclusion was that (Arvin &) Mabosstiff had literally nothing going for them other than that they met the requirement of being a character that people who played Pokémon Scarlet/Violet would definitely know about, which is what made the option so funny to me...That and the mental image of Arvin siccing his mob boss dog who only recently recovered from a fatal illness on the video gaming multiverse.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I'm fairly certain hyperbole when used in this way is more meant to paint an argument as ridiculous by bringing it to its extreme. Not saying you're actually trying to be nefarious here but like...yeah.

The literal definition of hyperbole is an exaggerated statement or claim not meant to be taken literally.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Also late update on this because I wanted to see if something happened, but there was no Nintendo Music app update tonight and I'm not sure what that's about since we haven't even finished everything from the reveal trailer yet lol

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The literal definition of hyperbole is an exaggerated statement or claim not meant to be taken literally.

And applied to an argument in this manner, it turns the argument into a strawman.

Flamigo and Mabosstiff are the hyperbole in this example, as they are picks that lack general appeal, which works on your argument that a character pick needs some sort of appeal to be seriously considered. However, these hyperbolic picks are framed around people actually wanting them, which isn't the case, and is very different in contrast to the argument that I've actually seen of people wanting a Pokémon character who's appeal is unique to the Pokémon series rather than being an archetype that can be fulfilled by other ninja/wrestler characters. That's why I find the argument misleading*, if unintentionally.

*I did say disingenuous before, but that actually was a word I needed to brush up on my knowledge of its definition for, as it was the incorrect one to use.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Although in a break from tradition I believe that the new Pokémon rep will be DLC rather than base game due to timing issues.

Maybe they could use the then most recent gen as a base game addition and then put a "next gen" Pokemon as a DLC.

Something im surprised they didnt do in Ultimate.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I've been quite inactive here in the past few months, but I wanted to discuss Kamek a bit.

Any thoughts on Kamek? I think he's a really underdicussed choice.

He should be a Mii Mage costume.

Do I have to bring up that Astro Bot didn't need to be M-rated to have bots based on M-rated games again?

Did you also fail to notice that none of those bots are named after the characters they're based on, or mention the series they're from by name?

That's some pretty blatant "Smash x Dante"-esque sidestepping.

That's not how it's going to work. They can't just arbitrarily assign their own rating, they get rated based on the content that is presented.

And the idea that they'll be so meticulous to make sure they feature just enough content to warrant the T rating while at the same time making sure said content DOESN'T bump CERO to B is asinine.

Except that's not how the ESRB works.

You send them your game and the ESRB sends it back telling "it'll get this rating because of this, this and this." And then you can either accept that rating, or cut those things to get a lower rating.

There's no meticulousness involved. They literally tell you what has to go in order to change your rating.

I thought that was a picture of Shenmou at first.

Ryo is the main character of Shenmue.

Although I feel it will start getting repetitive eventually.

Doesn't mean they'll stop doing it. See: FE in Smash.

Though I do love Shenmue, I'm not really interested in seeing it represented in Smash.

There's no way Shenmue gets picked before Like A Dragon.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Also late update on this because I wanted to see if something happened, but there was no Nintendo Music app update tonight and I'm not sure what that's about since we haven't even finished everything from the reveal trailer yet lol

I assume it's because of the holidays.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Here's a topic, what characters do you think would make good Mii costumes?

Swordfighter
Crono [Chrono Trigger]
Frog [Chrono Trigger]
Randi [Secret of Mana]
Majima [Like a Dragon]
Vergil [Devil May Cry]
Kuros [Wizards & Warriors]
The Knight [Hollow Knight]

Brawler
King Hippo [Punch-Out]
Billy Lee/Jimmy Lee [Double Dragon]
Viewtiful Joe [Viewtiful Joe]
Robo [Chrono Trigger]

Gunner
Game Master [Captain N]
Master Chief [Halo]
Quote [Cave Story]
Jason [Blaster Master]

Mage
Aerith [Final Fantasy] (converted from Swordfighter)
Ashley [WarioWare] (converted from Swordfighter)
Lip [Panel de Pon] (converted from Swordfighter)
Veronica [Dragon Quest] (converted from Swordfighter)
Vince [Art Academy] (converted from Swordfighter)
Viridi [Kid Icarus] (converted from Swordfighter)
Eggplant Wizard [Kid Icarus]
Kamek [Super Mario Bros.]
FF Black Mage [Mario Sports Mix]
FF White Mage [Mario Sports Mix]
Reimu [Touhou]
Magus [Chrono Trigger]

Ninja
Altaïr [Assassin’s Creed] (converted from Swordfighter)
Goemon [Mystical Ninja] (converted from Swordfighter)
Nakoruru [Samurai Shodown] (converted from Swordfighter)
Ninjara [ARMS] (converted from Brawler)
FF Ninja [Mario Sports Mix]
Joe Musashi [Shinobi]
Rikimaru [Tenchu]
Guy [Final Fight]
Ibuki [Street Fighter]
Taki [SoulCalibur]
Kasumi [Dead or Alive]
Corvo Attano [Dishonored]

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dixie Kong
Bandana Waddle Dee
Toad
Kamek
Impa

Are these the characters that are uncountably popular and important but just lack sauce?!?

So glad the community defended Impa and Dixie before me.

I don't think they should be listed amongst the others here. Impa for example was popular in Age of Calamity mostly because of her flashy engaging move set. Dixie also has a lot of merit as a sort of lightweight grappler / zoner with her hair. The common critics against these characters might state there's a lack of sauce and they're clone / Echo material, but it's all but true. But no, I disagree.

Impa is a ninja with magical clone abilities and several weapons to differentiate herself from the cast, and Dixie offers a very unique grappler lightweight type of character that's less high risk high reward than the typical lightweight characters. This is saucy to me. Then again they're my most wanted characters by far.

Bandana Dee also doesn't necessarily lacks sauce, it's just his move set would be extremely obvious. That might just be a factor. Also his design work against him in this regard. Toad has that too, even Kamek. There's a certain degree of being generic beings in their universe which makes them not stand out by design alone. Kamek doesn't stand out amongst other Magikoopa, Toad is a Toad literally, basically does all Mario does, which actually might help him cause Mario does cool stuff but he isn't Mario, and Bandana Dee is cool in abilities but in the end still a generic grunt with a bandana and a spear.

I think Dixie and Impa easily stand out compared to them therefore.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I assume it's because of the holidays.

Probably? Kinda makes me wonder if something will get posted when the holidays are over though, like that little bit when the app first came out where Mario Wonder was on a Thursday and DKC2 was on the following Monday to kick off regular Monday updates lol

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Speaking of Kamek, there's this mod that gives him a fully original moveset in Ultimate:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

He's not the kind of character I usually think is that great of a fit for a playable Smash role, but this moveset is really unique and interesting and I wouldn't mind something like this at all.

 

[Golden Icarus]

There is no character that can’t have an interesting moveset.

A spear is a brand new weapon that could be used in tons of interesting ways, the hair-based fighter is a classic fighting game archetype that’s missing from Smash. Toad might have “all the same powers as Mario,” which just means he can do anything Mario can do. Ice balls, boomerangs, mega mushrooms, karts, shells, you name it. That’s on top of his unique powers from Captain Toad. He’s as flexible as he is “bland.”

And I’ll always hold that Meowth would be a fantastic inclusion. Nothing fancy required. Just a rushdown fighter with claws, like Wolverine or Felicia. Somehow that’s an archetype that’s missing from Smash. Give him his voice from the anime and some Team Rocket references and he would easily be oozing charm. Everyone says he’s boring now, but I guarantee you people would love him if he ever became playable.

It really isn’t that they lack “sauce.” It’s that they lack “shine.” These are characters that are so popular and significant to Nintendo that Sakurai has to have at least thought of them at one point, but has yet to find them particularly exciting. The sauce is there, but so far it isn’t the flavor he’s looking for. He can only add so many characters and naturally the majority aren’t gonna be the most exotic and enticing option on the table.

I don’t think a single person has denied that Kamek could have a great moveset. But is this the bangin’ new flavor that Smash has been missing? That’s a tough sell.