Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Discussing cuts isn't "being an asshole" automatically. Most people are understandably expecting at least SOME cuts, and naturally people will want those cuts to be characters they don't care for rather than those that they do care about.

Talking about who you'd like to be kept in a new game that will almost certainly require cuts from Ultimate is just a natural point of discussion.

This is exactly why I'm like "if we have to cut a Pokemon outside of Pichu, I want it to be Lucario" because I hate Smash Lucario.

This doesn't mean I wanna ruin the fun for people that like Lucario or don't understand his merits, I just want him reworked and to come back as vet DLC because in my opinion Lucario feels really bad to play lol

 

[Opossum]

This is exactly why I'm like "if we have to cut a Pokemon outside of Pichu, I want it to be Lucario" because I hate Smash Lucario.

This doesn't mean I wanna ruin the fun for people that like Lucario or don't understand his merits, I just want him reworked and to come back as vet DLC because in my opinion Lucario feels really bad to play lol

Okay but real talk, please give Lucario Bone Rush as a reskinned Octaslash for its up special next time, at the very least.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I can see where both sides come from here.

Yeah, I do think that many rosters out there are entirely self serving and are made out of spite. That spite is really obvious and that kind of hatred is unhealthy. Yeah, there are a lot of people who just use rosters to spread hate of something and it sucks.

That said, it's not inherently selfish to say you'd rather certain characters get cut over others. When cuts are inevitable, people are bound to talk about it.

I think people would be a lot more open to cuts and discussing cuts if that venom didn't exist.

 

[NintenRob]

Regardless of who's cut, chances are high most characters on the roster are going to have a spike in popularity once they're cut I feel (except for very unchanged clones)

Wolf was a generally expected cut in Smash 4 but look how much outcry he had had when he didn't come back, especially in DLC. It's why everyone is here happened in the first place. People love veterans

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It all comes down the inevitable feeling with certain fighters of "I have no strong fondness or attachment to this character, and I don't think their removal would harm the game that much." That exact sentiment isn't exactly shouted but that is the simple implication. Its not really that different from those pitching games for the Switch 2 and often not suggesting certain franchise sequels because they don't really care about them and believe the next system wouldn't really be that harmed by their absence.

Because Smash hypotheticals deal with such things far more concretely than the abstract, tension between varying schools of thought on fighters is also an eventuality because its a far more direct disagreement.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Okay but real talk, please give Lucario Bone Rush as a reskinned Octaslash for its up special next time, at the very least.

Honestly speaking of Pokemon, it's kinda funny because I used to feel this way about Charizard too, but then Ultimate did the universal three-frame jumpsquat and suddenly Charizard felt fine to me lol

I just really don't like how floaty Lucario FEELS even if he's not technically floaty by values. As a Fighting/Steel type, that's a really weird sensation to have while playing him. And I really dislike how Aura has started stacking with rage so the more you win, the easier Lucario can kill you at like 40. He also just feels really samey to me, like I know which move is which, but they all feel so samey to me and none of them really pack an impact to me. It feels like it's mostly the vibe of his kit I don't like but I've felt this way about him since he was added in Brawl, so I would LOVE a Lucario rework.

 

[Idon]

Honestly speaking of Pokemon, it's kinda funny because I used to feel this way about Charizard too, but then Ultimate did the universal three-frame jumpsquat and suddenly Charizard felt fine to me lol

I just really don't like how floaty Lucario FEELS even if he's not technically floaty by values. As a Fighting/Steel type, that's a really weird sensation to have while playing him. And I really dislike how Aura has started stacking with rage so the more you win, the easier Lucario can kill you at like 40. He also just feels really samey to me, like I know which move is which, but they all feel so samey to me and none of them really pack an impact to me. It feels like it's mostly the vibe of his kit I don't like but I've felt this way about him since he was added in Brawl, so I would LOVE a Lucario rework.

Yeah Lucario's low impact hits and underwater movement feels extremely weird for one of the premier poke-martial artists.

The aura mechanic, especially, feels like an anchor waying down his potential.
He must suck on average because for 3% of a match, he gets to hit really hard. Meanwhile Kazuya Mishima is at "I'm going to kill you" vs "I'm going to kill you even harder" territory for 100% of the game.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

If we're allowed to oppose potential newcomers, I legit don't see why we're not allowed to oppose returning veterans. If someone says they oppose Waluigi, are they "ruining the fun" of all the Waluigi fans?

Maybe it's true that someone vibes with a character's gameplay, but in that same way, maybe someone else finds that character's gameplay annoying to deal with. You can say, "Don't want the character cut, just want their moveset to be reworked." But if it is reworked, that character's gonna feel different and alienate the players who were playing them before. Would that be "ruining the fun" of everyone who liked the character before that moveset change?

 

[Idon]

If we're allowed to oppose potential newcomers, I legit don't see why we're not allowed to oppose returning veterans. If someone says they oppose Waluigi, are they "ruining the fun" of all the Waluigi fans?

Maybe it's true that someone vibes with a character's gameplay, but in that same way, maybe someone else finds that character's gameplay annoying to deal with. You can say, "Don't want the character cut, just want their moveset to be reworked." But if it is reworked, that character's gonna feel different and alienate the players who were playing them before. Would that be "ruining the fun" of everyone who liked the character before that moveset change?

And wouldn't you know it, that point of discussion has been talked about with the big GDorf man for decades as well.

As you can imagine, people can't agree on that either.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

To be fair to Lucario, he was designed after a concept (fighter that manipulates life energy) and a single movie that honestly doesn't give much of a showing other than "spam blue energy balls".

Smash Lucario is essentially stuck as the movie Lucario with no updates for accounting for anything since outside Mega Evolution, hence why Lucario talks when only that particular Lucario could.
Just another example of something that made sense early on but became outdated over time.

 

[SPEN18]

Yup, wanting or not wanting vets is the same as wanting or not wanting newcomers. There's no essential difference. It's just preferring this or that fictional character to be in the game or not, based on any number of factors. Sometimes people push for cuts for selfish reasons, but people do that for newcomers just as well. There's nothing inherently selfish in, say, making an objective argument that character X has more merit than character Y, even if character Y has been in the game before and X has not.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

To be fair to Lucario, he was designed after a concept (fighter that manipulates life energy) and a single movie that honestly doesn't give much of a showing other than "spam blue energy balls".

Smash Lucario is essentially stuck as the movie Lucario with no updates for accounting for anything since outside Mega Evolution, hence why Lucario talks when only that particular Lucario could.
Just another example of something that made sense early on but became outdated over time.

And I think that concept can work, just not with someone like Lucario because if I had no context and I was told there was a fighter that manipulates life energy, I would imagine something like siphoning life force on hit or with a specific move or something to power up certain Aura attacks with a sort of resource management system (like making Aura Sphere stronger or making recovery go farther, but only the one time based on how much you put into it) instead of Lucario's really basic kit and basically saying "well aura makes it so the more you're losing, the stronger you get".

I genuinely feel like Sephiroth's One-Winged Mode is a better way to handle that kind of mechanic lol

 

[Pupp135]

So i made a concept for my new big project " Super Smash bros Dawn"
Every Character i know anything about will get some fun extras in this GAme Concept!

I limited myself to 110 Characters for the base game which i think IS Possible Now i just need to know if i missed anything MAjor?
Heres some clarification:
1. I tried giving a lot of love to alot of franchises!
2. Link and zelda have alts based on a lot of versions!
3. I do like villains so i might be biased sometimes!
4. Im also limited in icons from newer games so if a switch era character is missing (for example i wanted to add the ring fit villain) thats the reason
5. Did i miss any really beloved third partys i think i got the most wanted?
6. Also Sans is missing because He WOULDNT fight in a silly tournament even the prankster aproach doesnt work IMO because even his pranks are lazy!
7. Lastly A couple of character (specifically Geno are left for potential seasons 3 and 4

The Bottom Rows are DLC
View attachment 394694
Tell me if you think i missed anyone who shouldve made the cut Objectivly!

I like this roster a lot. It’s kept most of my favorites, with Ice Climbers and Sheik being my personal highlights. I think the newcomer selection is solid, and Isaac is one of my most wanted newcomers.

If we do get a Smash veteran popularity poll, who do you all think is going to be:

• The least popular character out of all 89 playable characters?
• The most popular character?
• The biggest underperformer(s)?
• The unexpected or slept on overperformer(s)?

Most of my decisions are going off of my experience with online tourney mode.
Least Popular: I guess Ice Climbers, Sheik, and Olimar.
Most Popular: Dk, Kirby, Fox, Falcon, Doriyah, Dedede, Little Mac, K. Rool
Underperformers: I’m guessing Rosalina, Bowser Jr., Robin, Meta Knight
Overperformers: Dr. Mario, Piranha Plant (I do see it a decent amount online), Young Link, Ike, Lucas, Incinoroar

 

[Laniv]

Did we like Project M Lucario?

 

[RodNutTakin]

My issue with that is it goes both ways. The "screw you I got mine" mentality irregardless of any one else's opinion.

For example Abigail in SFV was the most critically panned character in SF history, just about no one liked him, no one liked fighting against him, and no one liked his playstyle. If you asked any Street Fighter player who they did not want to return, everyone would say him.

I would not consider the vast majority of people that despised him and his inclusion to be assholes, nor do I consider the rare fans of him that want him back at the chagrin of everyone else to be the "standard" that should be catered to.

I honestly think this anecdote pretty much sums up why I dislike those who insist hard on major cuts to Smash, especially those who unsubtly try to draw parallels to Street Fighter wiping slates often. It is just apples to oranges.
Street Fighter can throw out unpopular characters like Necro, Remy, El Fuerte, Rufus, and (as you mentioned) Abigail and never really look back, since they are all characters designed specifically for the game and serve little purpose elsewhere (at least, in the event they aren't popular or internally-pushed enough to appear in crossovers and cross-promos). If a new Street Fighter character fails to land with audiences, then the team can just shoo them out and try again with another new character.
On the other hand, Smash Bros. only uses characters from other video games. That means from the get go, a new Smash character likely already has a sizable fanbase inherited from their source series, which usually results in this base snowballing a bit when general Smash audiences are mixed in once the character is introduced into the series. Nearly every fighter in Ultimate already had fans before they got in Smash, and as a result, nearly any cut will be felt much harder than a normal fighting game. More people will be burned by the removal of Wolf, Rosalina, Mewtwo, Ike, Sephiroth in Smash than the removal of Abigail in Street Fighter, Lucky Chloe in Tekken, Stryker in Mortal Kombat.
That isn't to say that there are some exceptions to the rule in Smash, characters like Corrin and Piranha Plant are either contentious (in the former's case) or taken for granted (in the latter's case) within their home fandoms, and as a result losing those characters would not sting as bad in most players' eyes.
Basically, in my eyes, Smash's fighters all being pre-established video game charactes makes nearly all of them very much less expendable compared to characters designed specifically for traditional fighting game rosters, and it frustrates me when others do not seem to understand this viewpoint.

 

[AreJay25]

Did we like Project M Lucario?

PM Lucario was sick. Genuinely one of the coolest redesigns in that game for sure.

Also helps that he was utilizing fighting game mechanics before the fighting game characters actually showed up in the official series lol.

 

[Opossum]

Did we like Project M Lucario?

The one thing I especially liked about PM Lucario was actually the forward tilt lol. It was a really cool back handed strike that utilized Lucario's hand spikes in a fun way. The animation was a bit rough, but I definitely think it would be more refined in an official game anyway. Up Smash being changed to Sky Uppercut was also cool.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I think at a certain point, Sakurai and the devs just need to be more open to the idea of heavily reworking fighters in general. Smash might have a very large casual audience, but at this point, with the series having been around for decades and having no less than five games, one of which was released on two separate platforms, it feels like they're a little too worried about alienating people who main specific characters.

For another example, sure, a lot of Ganondorf mains are probably used to Falcondorf, and now Ganondorf with very few uniques moves including use of a sword, but how many more Ganondorf players and LoZ and Smash fans alike want a better balanced and far more lore-accurate Ganondorf instead?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The main reason a lot of franchises do an overhaul on a character is because the core gameplay mechanics actually do change. ...This doesn't happen with Smash. Sakurai doesn't do more than adjust the gameplay overall, nothing massive. This reflects on all of it. The closest thing is the mini-game changes(as some are just thrown out to begin with).

 

[ninjahmos]

It seems there's always malice and toxicity in the FGC, especially in Smash.

Although IIRC, Sakurai said he didn't really see Super Smash Bros. as a fighting game...for some reason.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Yeah when everyone is here was revealed my speculation rotted brain immediately thought "oh thank god, we won't have to deal with cut talks this time around." lol

 

[Louie G.]

I still really don’t find it so miserable to talk about cuts. Sure we’re all gonna disagree, in both priorities and the scope of the next game, but a little spicy debate is kind of the fun part as long as everyone is being mature about it. I enjoy the puzzle and challenging myself to go as restrictive as I can before I decide I can’t go any further.

As far as actively wanting characters gone, I don’t feel that passionate about it but with potentially limited space there are characters who I’m at least rooting for not taking up valuable development time. I think this is a very reasonable concern. Or cases where their presence over other characters would frustrate me, which is pettier but justified. Essentially though, I just want Zero Suit Samus to be cut lol.

 

[SharkLord]

I still really don’t find it so miserable to talk about cuts. Sure we’re all gonna disagree, in both priorities and the scope of the next game, but a little spicy debate is kind of the fun part as long as everyone is being mature about it. I enjoy the puzzle and challenging myself to go as restrictive as I can before I decide I can’t go any further.

As far as actively wanting characters gone, I don’t feel that passionate about it but with potentially limited space there are characters who I’m at least rooting for not taking up valuable development time. I think this is a very reasonable concern. Or cases where their presence over other characters would frustrate me, which is pettier but justified. Essentially though, I just want Zero Suit Samus to be cut lol.

Yeah, as tricky as it can be, it's a fun challenge to limit yourself when designing rosters with a limited number of characters. Realistically there's only so much content a game can have, and the devs would also have to budget out their fighters. It also helps give a bit of direction to the roster when you want to make an actually distinct one, rather than just a vehicle for your newcomer lists.

I also agree with Zero Suit Samus. We... Don't really need multiple iterations of the same character, unless they're a fairly quick clone. ZSS as an alternate form of Samus is a fun gimmick, but that was dropped in Brawl so now she's just kinda there. As far as characters go she's pretty low priority.

 

[Louie G.]

I also agree with Zero Suit Samus. We... Don't really need multiple iterations of the same character, unless they're a fairly quick clone. ZSS as an alternate form of Samus is a fun gimmick, but that was dropped in Brawl so now she's just kinda there. As far as characters go she's pretty low priority.

See, I agree with this for Zero Suit, but I will defend Sheik on their own merit. I think Zelda in general gets away with this for me because they’re all different characters, kinda sorta. We should give it a break for newcomers next game though, lol.

But yeah I just can’t really justify ZSS outdoing popular characters who have their own distinct identity, even on the front of her unique gameplay, because letting fans play as their favorite characters is still an important element of the series and you can already play as Samus. I feel like this has to be something they weigh out during the process.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Yeah when everyone is here was revealed my speculation rotted brain immediately thought "oh thank god, we won't have to deal with cut talks this time around." lol

That's probably where my mind would've gone as well if I hadn't instead been freaking out with hype the instant Snake and Pichu were shown.

 

[ninjahmos]

Yeah, I know every iteration of the Legend of Zelda is different, and I know that he would be more reminiscent of Link's old moveset...but do we really need another small Link for the next game?

 

[jamesster445]

Bruh what? Who is "rooting to take away other fighters" lol

Are you new here? Going to Brawl, people hoped the clones would get cut. Going to 4, people hoped Wolf would get cut. Even going to Smash for Switch there are tons of posts, videos, etc about which characters shouldn't return. And we're seeing that again.

That one guy with all the Rosalina amiibos

Mariotehplumber being mentioned in 2024.

No I disagree.

Character addition is not a simple equation where it's either a zero or a positive.
There are characters that people are allowed to dislike and to not want in another game because it can in fact, affect your one's own enjoyment. This is, after all, a fundamentally multiplayer game where you must fight against these other characters.

If you can want characters in... you are allowed to want characters out.

False equivalence. You're right it's not a zero or a positive. It's a Negative or a Positive. A newcomer offers new moves, mechanics etc. A cut is a loss of those ideas.

The problem isn't my about "MY" enjoyment of a character. Its the denial of any enjoyment for another person. Wanting a fighter to get cut purely because "I" want it so, is inherently selfish.

My issue with that is it goes both ways. The "screw you I got mine" mentality irregardless of any one else's opinion.

For example Abigail in SFV was the most critically panned character in SF history, just about no one liked him, no one liked fighting against him, and no one liked his playstyle. If you asked any Street Fighter player who they did not want to return, everyone would say him.

I would not consider the vast majority of people that despised him and his inclusion to be assholes, nor do I consider the rare fans of him that want him back at the chagrin of everyone else to be the "standard" that should be catered to.

I'm glad you brought up SFV. You know who else wasn't liked in SFV? Ed. To a point that come SF6, even Capcom was hyping up Akuma before they even showed anything for Ed. Now in the year 2024, Ed is a fairly respected character who has an audience. The same can be said for Luke. Even AKI shows that there was an idea with FANG. I think what I'm getting at is that Ed and especially Luke, show that the problem wasn't even necessarily the character but the environment they were in and now that they're in a better one they've been fleshed out much more in a way that they never could've if they were simply cut.

Moral of the story, if Necalli shows up for SF6, people are gonna realize just how much worse SFV really was.

Oof, seems like my comment got ignored. Probably commented at a bad time. Seems like multiple more important topics are happening now.

I got you homie

Do any of you guys have a smash bros most wanted character that just so happens to have potential for multiple final smashes?

For me that be Rean Schwarzer from Trails of cold steel. He has like 6 potential final smashes now, this video am showing as an example only shows 4 of them but you get the point.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

I wouldn't say most of mine have the need for multiple final smashes but I could see a few ideas. Dixie could implement the animal buddies or reference the instruments from DK64. Andy could bring out Megatanks or some kind of team attack with Max and Sami, Noah could use Lucky 7 or Ouroboros.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I also agree with Zero Suit Samus. We... Don't really need multiple iterations of the same character, unless they're a fairly quick clone. ZSS as an alternate form of Samus is a fun gimmick, but that was dropped in Brawl so now she's just kinda there. As far as characters go she's pretty low priority.

Genuinely curious (like not in a sarcastic way, I'm legit just thinking out loud here lol), who else does this apply to outside of ZSS and Sheik? Like I would've included Toon Link, Young Link, and Doc in it, but I'd think they'd fall under that clone banner, or at least did at one time lol

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The main reason a lot of franchises do an overhaul on a character is because the core gameplay mechanics actually do change. ...This doesn't happen with Smash. Sakurai doesn't do more than adjust the gameplay overall, nothing massive. This reflects on all of it. The closest thing is the mini-game changes(as some are just thrown out to begin with).

While I do think they often take advantage of the new system mechanics to reinvent characters (or give them extra pizzaz if they're DLC), this is a very good point. Street Fighter 6 is probably a good example since its systems kinda forces everyone to be built around them, especially if they're zoners.

EDIT: It does make me wonder what Sakurai would do with a new take on Smash's gameplay.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

While I do think they often take advantage of the new system mechanics to reinvent characters (or give them extra pizzaz if they're DLC), this is a very good point. Street Fighter 6 is probably a good example since its systems kinda forces everyone to be built around them, especially if they're zoners.

EDIT: It does make me wonder what Sakurai would do with a new take on Smash's gameplay.

Yeah, if the game mechanics were overhauled, it would make sense. Though it's unlikely to happen.

But as of now, they fit their archtype and just need adjustments at best. Many were made to be archtypes, after all. That's not saying it's a good way to make them either, but I still think it's better to not change a veteran too much. It's just easier to introduce a new character with a different moveset and all.

-----------

That said, I don't find Zero Suit Samus redundant anymore than, well, anyone. She's got a unique and fun moveset. You don't need anything more than that. It's not like she actually takes something away from Samus herself(which some clones can, notably). Just sometimes she was better in the tier lists... but she's also very fast, which is part of why. It wouldn't matter if she was another character with that kind of moveset. It'd be the same factor. Samus needs some nice buffs on its own, but removing a popular playable character won't do anything.

I also don't see any good reason to remove clones or "the same character" outside of time constraints, and at most, if they share the exact same role(like two Child Links. That's a bit more understandable). Change it up a bit? Sure. Daisy and Richter clearly need more differences, Dark Samus could use some minor changes(as she has enough elemental differences to feel a bit more unique), and Ganondorf needs a freaking reflector already(the biggest thing he's missing).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yeah, if the game mechanics were overhauled, it would make sense. Though it's unlikely to happen.

But as of now, they fit their archtype and just need adjustments at best. Many were made to be archtypes, after all. That's not saying it's a good way to make them either, but I still think it's better to not change a veteran too much. It's just easier to introduce a new character with a different moveset and all.

I honestly think that there's only a few characters that wouldn't arrive in about the same place even with a redesign. As for new universal game mechanics, I think now would be the time for us to see them if we're going to for two reasons:

1. Coming from "Everyone is Here!" is a huge challenge, and a new spin on the core gameplay would help entice new players.
2. Sakurai seems to be flirting with the idea already with Custom Moves (which unfortunately sent the scope into the stratosphere) and Spirits (which were more casual oriented).

 

[DarthEnderX]

For example Abigail in SFV was the most critically panned character in SF history, just about no one liked him, no one liked fighting against him, and no one liked his playstyle. If you asked any Street Fighter player who they did not want to return, everyone would say him.

I would not consider the vast majority of people that despised him and his inclusion to be assholes

It absolutely is being an ***hole though, to those 12 Abigail fans.

nor do I consider the rare fans of him that want him back at the chagrin of everyone else to be the "standard" that should be catered to.

Being an exclusionary ***hole is categorically worse than being an inclusionary ***hole.

If Street Fighter ever did 'Everyone is Here', the guy going "I wish Abigail wasn't here though" is a HUGE ***hole.

If we're allowed to oppose potential newcomers, I legit don't see why we're not allowed to oppose returning veterans. If someone says they oppose Waluigi, are they "ruining the fun" of all the Waluigi fans?

Y...yes. You're allowed to do that. But don't pretend that's not being an ***hole to Waluigi fans.

When I say I don't want Reimu to be a Fighter in Smash, I do so with the full understanding that I am being an ***hole to Touhou fans.

 

[Louie G.]

That said, I don't find Zero Suit Samus redundant anymore than, well, anyone. She's got a unique and fun moveset. You don't need anything more than that.

Well, we’re probably going to have to lose unique and fun characters regardless so if it has to be anyone I’d like it to be her. Has more to do with her lame high heels than it does buffing Samus, but I digress.

“It wouldn’t matter if she was another character with that moveset.” It makes all the difference to me, because I don’t think Zero Suit Samus is a good representation of who Samus is. If she was a totally different character who was all about sexy whips and heels and whatever, like Bayonetta, then all power to them. But instead it’s a strange, reductive portrayal of one of my favorite Nintendo characters.

This point is ultimately a matter of opinion, so I don’t think there’s much more to be said, but I want to make it clear that her identity as Samus Aran has baggage that goes beyond just “I don’t want two versions of a character” and “Samus might be better if she wasn’t here”.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I decided to make the question of each section “Vote for your five favorite characters in this section” in my draft. Does that work?

IMHO, the most fair and accurate to gauge this would be like this:

Have each person rank the entire roster in order of how much the like the character.
Award points inversely based on their ranking(ex. 1st place is worth 89 points. 89th place is worth 1 point. etc.)
Keep a tally of each character's total.

Obviously, this is a ****-load of work for both the poll-maker, and the voters. But I think the results would be the least biased.

 

[ninjahmos]

I just had a thought.

I'm not sure if we've discussed this before, but should they give certain characters unique mechanics for the next game like most fighting games do? Something like meters and whatnot?

 

[DarthEnderX]

I honestly think this anecdote pretty much sums up why I dislike those who insist hard on major cuts to Smash, especially those who unsubtly try to draw parallels to Street Fighter wiping slates often. It is just apples to oranges.

Okay, but what if Capcom makes Street Fighter Omega. And Everyone is Here!

Yeah when everyone is here was revealed my speculation rotted brain immediately thought "oh thank god, we won't have to deal with cut talks this time around." lol

Amen.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm not going to say much, but;

• Characters do not depend on others for buffs outside of clone purposes. And removing the clones has no real effect on making the other character better.
  • Charizard did not really become much better by being solo either. In fact, it got better in Ultimate.
  • Sheik and Zelda did get better by being split instead. Zelda was always fairly poor until Ultimate somewhat boosted her. She only got a bit better because she wasn't tied to a poor mechanic, however.
  • Zero Suit Samus is not dependent on Samus on vice versa. Brawl did not have their movesets coherently work with each other. It's very clear the balance has them separated, as you can't switch constantly back and forth as a mechanic. It's a loose way to show off a fun Final Smash, and a random item doesn't make for a clear gameplay balance for a mechanic either. It was a Final Smash mechanic moreso than a balance between the two.
• Yes, the heels are dumb. Though only because high heels are not as reasonable as you'd think they be. They look poor.
  • Zero Suit Samus having a domineering personality is not OOC, though. It's just another side of Samus they're showing. One that's overall her much more aggressive side too. And one we see in Dread as well, meaning it basically became a part of who she is. If not heading towards.
  • Samus in general being only stoic is not accurate. She's shown emotion plenty of times, and not just during Other M. She's somewhat hardened due to lots of trauma, but is still more than capable of acting like an actual person.
  • Samus has a helmet on. She can't really emote. ZSS is her humanizing design that also didn't emote well till Smash 4 went a good direction in starting to make her more, well, a person. Ultimate finishes it off currently by improving her bodyshape and emphasizing she's a buff woman but still a good build. She's finally not based around eye candy(and the heels see more use as being a jet thing too in Ultimate. Regardless of their bleh design, they are not simply there for eye candy. While she doesn't directly fight in the Zero Suit, her being out of the suit is a general thing throughout the franchise. Why shouldn't an important aspect of her, her human side, be playable too? It's something you can't get otherwise. And it does better than just showing she has a popular human design for obvious reasons. In this case, all it does is make her more empowering as a woman who can show she's awesome regardless of the suit.

I'm going to leave it at that, but ZSS feels great because she compliments Samus perfectly. Most characters aren't in a giant suit of armor and not allowed to ever emote. Some at most lack voices, or in MegaMan's case, is meant to be stoic as a callback to the extremely simple starting sprite design with not a ton of animations. He's wooden on purpose(not saying it's a good thing). None of the Metroid cast really seems expendable bar somewhat Dark Samus, but she's easy to make. There's little reason to reduce its size anyway. All 4 work well in different ways. More would be cool, too.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

IIRC the jet boots make sense from a thermodynamics standpoint (or something), and the idea that she'd have wearable gadgets to help her in case the worst happens and she's without her power armor also makes a ton of sense. It's just that heels as a shoe type are so impractical for basically everything and wouldn't even fit into her power armor anyway. My thought on that would be to make them some sort of metal foot guards/boots that had the bottom flip out into a heel configuration when they fire their thrusters. That way they'd make sense for their purpose as sci-fi athletic footwear and kicks from the thing would still look pretty gnarly because your stabbing people with metal heels that are also on fire.

As far as looks go, aside from my idea allowing you to remove the yellow from the design unless the heels are active, I'm not sure there's a whole lot you can do. Near as I can tell, the main issue is the neon yellow, and there really isn't a better option since the other colors in her color scheme would blend in with clear sky backgrounds, or aren't prominent enough for it to not look random. Yellow stands out the best, and keeps with the color of her hair and Paralyzer whip/shots. I also don't think they're all that ugly, but I'm not one for fashion so take my opinion with a truckload of salt.

 

[dream1ng]

I honestly think this anecdote pretty much sums up why I dislike those who insist hard on major cuts to Smash, especially those who unsubtly try to draw parallels to Street Fighter wiping slates often. It is just apples to oranges.
Street Fighter can throw out unpopular characters like Necro, Remy, El Fuerte, Rufus, and (as you mentioned) Abigail and never really look back, since they are all characters designed specifically for the game and serve little purpose elsewhere (at least, in the event they aren't popular or internally-pushed enough to appear in crossovers and cross-promos). If a new Street Fighter character fails to land with audiences, then the team can just shoo them out and try again with another new character.
On the other hand, Smash Bros. only uses characters from other video games. That means from the get go, a new Smash character likely already has a sizable fanbase inherited from their source series, which usually results in this base snowballing a bit when general Smash audiences are mixed in once the character is introduced into the series. Nearly every fighter in Ultimate already had fans before they got in Smash, and as a result, nearly any cut will be felt much harder than a normal fighting game. More people will be burned by the removal of Wolf, Rosalina, Mewtwo, Ike, Sephiroth in Smash than the removal of Abigail in Street Fighter, Lucky Chloe in Tekken, Stryker in Mortal Kombat.
That isn't to say that there are some exceptions to the rule in Smash, characters like Corrin and Piranha Plant are either contentious (in the former's case) or taken for granted (in the latter's case) within their home fandoms, and as a result losing those characters would not sting as bad in most players' eyes.
Basically, in my eyes, Smash's fighters all being pre-established video game charactes makes nearly all of them very much less expendable compared to characters designed specifically for traditional fighting game rosters, and it frustrates me when others do not seem to understand this viewpoint.

That means cuts might be more painful, it doesn't mean they won't happen. Cuts are a result of finite time and resources, not because some character was voted off the island. Less popular characters might be likelier to be cut, but the cut transpires not because they weren't popular, it's because unless the game iterates off its current build indefinitely (which also isn't tenable), it's simply not possible to bring everyone back. Cuts occur for logistical reasons.

People don't speculate major cuts to be a **** - if you have fairly extensive cuts it's likely the person suggesting it knows they'll lose some of their own characters - it's looking at a roster of nearing 100 and seeing that that kind of thing can't expand forever, and can't reach close to its current count once it starts again. So whenever the axe comes down (past licensing issues), it will take out quite a number of fighters.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I see value in Zero Suit Samus as a unique moveset and cool side to a character I love but...

Yeah she's really superfluous. She was added when Sakurai couldn't wrap his mind around other Metroid characters. Now we have two other major Metroid characters in Ridley and Dark Samus. Her moveset is fun and I will support her coming back, but if she was never included no one would be asking for her (aside from maybe a cool cameo in like a victory screen or something). I'd also prefer to keep Ridley and Dark Samus over her if I had to choose. Yeah Dark Samus is a very cloney clone, but she is at least another separate element of the Metroid franchise (and cool as hell besides).

That said, I think she is going to come back. I don't see Metroid getting cuts and if it did, it'd be Dark Samus. I think Zero Suit Samus' gameplay and appeal (for lack of a better term) is going to keep her around. She's a pretty popular character in both the competitive and casual scenes. She's marketable and does steal the show. She isn't one of Smash's more forgotten characters like Robin or Toon Link. It's mostly the speculators like us who feel she hasn't earned her keep. She's a lot like Sheik except I think Sheik holds much more inherent value then her.

That said, I am pretty satisfied with the Metroid roster. Yeah Raven Beak would be dope and maybe I'll actually feel something for Sylux after Metroid Prime 4: Beyond, but if we just keep the four we have, I won't complain.