Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Discussing cuts isn't "being an asshole" automatically. Most people are understandably expecting at least SOME cuts, and naturally people will want those cuts to be characters they don't care for rather than those that they do care about.

Talking about who you'd like to be kept in a new game that will almost certainly require cuts from Ultimate is just a natural point of discussion.

This is exactly why I'm like "if we have to cut a Pokemon outside of Pichu, I want it to be Lucario" because I hate Smash Lucario.

This doesn't mean I wanna ruin the fun for people that like Lucario or don't understand his merits, I just want him reworked and to come back as vet DLC because in my opinion Lucario feels really bad to play lol

 

[Opossum]

This is exactly why I'm like "if we have to cut a Pokemon outside of Pichu, I want it to be Lucario" because I hate Smash Lucario.

This doesn't mean I wanna ruin the fun for people that like Lucario or don't understand his merits, I just want him reworked and to come back as vet DLC because in my opinion Lucario feels really bad to play lol

Okay but real talk, please give Lucario Bone Rush as a reskinned Octaslash for its up special next time, at the very least.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I can see where both sides come from here.

Yeah, I do think that many rosters out there are entirely self serving and are made out of spite. That spite is really obvious and that kind of hatred is unhealthy. Yeah, there are a lot of people who just use rosters to spread hate of something and it sucks.

That said, it's not inherently selfish to say you'd rather certain characters get cut over others. When cuts are inevitable, people are bound to talk about it.

I think people would be a lot more open to cuts and discussing cuts if that venom didn't exist.

 

[NintenRob]

Regardless of who's cut, chances are high most characters on the roster are going to have a spike in popularity once they're cut I feel (except for very unchanged clones)

Wolf was a generally expected cut in Smash 4 but look how much outcry he had had when he didn't come back, especially in DLC. It's why everyone is here happened in the first place. People love veterans

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It all comes down the inevitable feeling with certain fighters of "I have no strong fondness or attachment to this character, and I don't think their removal would harm the game that much." That exact sentiment isn't exactly shouted but that is the simple implication. Its not really that different from those pitching games for the Switch 2 and often not suggesting certain franchise sequels because they don't really care about them and believe the next system wouldn't really be that harmed by their absence.

Because Smash hypotheticals deal with such things far more concretely than the abstract, tension between varying schools of thought on fighters is also an eventuality because its a far more direct disagreement.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Okay but real talk, please give Lucario Bone Rush as a reskinned Octaslash for its up special next time, at the very least.

Honestly speaking of Pokemon, it's kinda funny because I used to feel this way about Charizard too, but then Ultimate did the universal three-frame jumpsquat and suddenly Charizard felt fine to me lol

I just really don't like how floaty Lucario FEELS even if he's not technically floaty by values. As a Fighting/Steel type, that's a really weird sensation to have while playing him. And I really dislike how Aura has started stacking with rage so the more you win, the easier Lucario can kill you at like 40. He also just feels really samey to me, like I know which move is which, but they all feel so samey to me and none of them really pack an impact to me. It feels like it's mostly the vibe of his kit I don't like but I've felt this way about him since he was added in Brawl, so I would LOVE a Lucario rework.

 

[Idon]

Honestly speaking of Pokemon, it's kinda funny because I used to feel this way about Charizard too, but then Ultimate did the universal three-frame jumpsquat and suddenly Charizard felt fine to me lol

I just really don't like how floaty Lucario FEELS even if he's not technically floaty by values. As a Fighting/Steel type, that's a really weird sensation to have while playing him. And I really dislike how Aura has started stacking with rage so the more you win, the easier Lucario can kill you at like 40. He also just feels really samey to me, like I know which move is which, but they all feel so samey to me and none of them really pack an impact to me. It feels like it's mostly the vibe of his kit I don't like but I've felt this way about him since he was added in Brawl, so I would LOVE a Lucario rework.

Yeah Lucario's low impact hits and underwater movement feels extremely weird for one of the premier poke-martial artists.

The aura mechanic, especially, feels like an anchor waying down his potential.
He must suck on average because for 3% of a match, he gets to hit really hard. Meanwhile Kazuya Mishima is at "I'm going to kill you" vs "I'm going to kill you even harder" territory for 100% of the game.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

If we're allowed to oppose potential newcomers, I legit don't see why we're not allowed to oppose returning veterans. If someone says they oppose Waluigi, are they "ruining the fun" of all the Waluigi fans?

Maybe it's true that someone vibes with a character's gameplay, but in that same way, maybe someone else finds that character's gameplay annoying to deal with. You can say, "Don't want the character cut, just want their moveset to be reworked." But if it is reworked, that character's gonna feel different and alienate the players who were playing them before. Would that be "ruining the fun" of everyone who liked the character before that moveset change?

 

[Idon]

If we're allowed to oppose potential newcomers, I legit don't see why we're not allowed to oppose returning veterans. If someone says they oppose Waluigi, are they "ruining the fun" of all the Waluigi fans?

Maybe it's true that someone vibes with a character's gameplay, but in that same way, maybe someone else finds that character's gameplay annoying to deal with. You can say, "Don't want the character cut, just want their moveset to be reworked." But if it is reworked, that character's gonna feel different and alienate the players who were playing them before. Would that be "ruining the fun" of everyone who liked the character before that moveset change?

And wouldn't you know it, that point of discussion has been talked about with the big GDorf man for decades as well.

As you can imagine, people can't agree on that either.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

To be fair to Lucario, he was designed after a concept (fighter that manipulates life energy) and a single movie that honestly doesn't give much of a showing other than "spam blue energy balls".

Smash Lucario is essentially stuck as the movie Lucario with no updates for accounting for anything since outside Mega Evolution, hence why Lucario talks when only that particular Lucario could.
Just another example of something that made sense early on but became outdated over time.

 

[SPEN18]

Yup, wanting or not wanting vets is the same as wanting or not wanting newcomers. There's no essential difference. It's just preferring this or that fictional character to be in the game or not, based on any number of factors. Sometimes people push for cuts for selfish reasons, but people do that for newcomers just as well. There's nothing inherently selfish in, say, making an objective argument that character X has more merit than character Y, even if character Y has been in the game before and X has not.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

To be fair to Lucario, he was designed after a concept (fighter that manipulates life energy) and a single movie that honestly doesn't give much of a showing other than "spam blue energy balls".

Smash Lucario is essentially stuck as the movie Lucario with no updates for accounting for anything since outside Mega Evolution, hence why Lucario talks when only that particular Lucario could.
Just another example of something that made sense early on but became outdated over time.

And I think that concept can work, just not with someone like Lucario because if I had no context and I was told there was a fighter that manipulates life energy, I would imagine something like siphoning life force on hit or with a specific move or something to power up certain Aura attacks with a sort of resource management system (like making Aura Sphere stronger or making recovery go farther, but only the one time based on how much you put into it) instead of Lucario's really basic kit and basically saying "well aura makes it so the more you're losing, the stronger you get".

I genuinely feel like Sephiroth's One-Winged Mode is a better way to handle that kind of mechanic lol

 

[Pupp135]

So i made a concept for my new big project " Super Smash bros Dawn"
Every Character i know anything about will get some fun extras in this GAme Concept!

I limited myself to 110 Characters for the base game which i think IS Possible Now i just need to know if i missed anything MAjor?
Heres some clarification:
1. I tried giving a lot of love to alot of franchises!
2. Link and zelda have alts based on a lot of versions!
3. I do like villains so i might be biased sometimes!
4. Im also limited in icons from newer games so if a switch era character is missing (for example i wanted to add the ring fit villain) thats the reason
5. Did i miss any really beloved third partys i think i got the most wanted?
6. Also Sans is missing because He WOULDNT fight in a silly tournament even the prankster aproach doesnt work IMO because even his pranks are lazy!
7. Lastly A couple of character (specifically Geno are left for potential seasons 3 and 4

The Bottom Rows are DLC
View attachment 394694
Tell me if you think i missed anyone who shouldve made the cut Objectivly!

I like this roster a lot. It’s kept most of my favorites, with Ice Climbers and Sheik being my personal highlights. I think the newcomer selection is solid, and Isaac is one of my most wanted newcomers.

If we do get a Smash veteran popularity poll, who do you all think is going to be:

• The least popular character out of all 89 playable characters?
• The most popular character?
• The biggest underperformer(s)?
• The unexpected or slept on overperformer(s)?

Most of my decisions are going off of my experience with online tourney mode.
Least Popular: I guess Ice Climbers, Sheik, and Olimar.
Most Popular: Dk, Kirby, Fox, Falcon, Doriyah, Dedede, Little Mac, K. Rool
Underperformers: I’m guessing Rosalina, Bowser Jr., Robin, Meta Knight
Overperformers: Dr. Mario, Piranha Plant (I do see it a decent amount online), Young Link, Ike, Lucas, Incinoroar

 

[Laniv]

Did we like Project M Lucario?

 

[RodNutTakin]

My issue with that is it goes both ways. The "screw you I got mine" mentality irregardless of any one else's opinion.

For example Abigail in SFV was the most critically panned character in SF history, just about no one liked him, no one liked fighting against him, and no one liked his playstyle. If you asked any Street Fighter player who they did not want to return, everyone would say him.

I would not consider the vast majority of people that despised him and his inclusion to be assholes, nor do I consider the rare fans of him that want him back at the chagrin of everyone else to be the "standard" that should be catered to.

I honestly think this anecdote pretty much sums up why I dislike those who insist hard on major cuts to Smash, especially those who unsubtly try to draw parallels to Street Fighter wiping slates often. It is just apples to oranges.
Street Fighter can throw out unpopular characters like Necro, Remy, El Fuerte, Rufus, and (as you mentioned) Abigail and never really look back, since they are all characters designed specifically for the game and serve little purpose elsewhere (at least, in the event they aren't popular or internally-pushed enough to appear in crossovers and cross-promos). If a new Street Fighter character fails to land with audiences, then the team can just shoo them out and try again with another new character.
On the other hand, Smash Bros. only uses characters from other video games. That means from the get go, a new Smash character likely already has a sizable fanbase inherited from their source series, which usually results in this base snowballing a bit when general Smash audiences are mixed in once the character is introduced into the series. Nearly every fighter in Ultimate already had fans before they got in Smash, and as a result, nearly any cut will be felt much harder than a normal fighting game. More people will be burned by the removal of Wolf, Rosalina, Mewtwo, Ike, Sephiroth in Smash than the removal of Abigail in Street Fighter, Lucky Chloe in Tekken, Stryker in Mortal Kombat.
That isn't to say that there are some exceptions to the rule in Smash, characters like Corrin and Piranha Plant are either contentious (in the former's case) or taken for granted (in the latter's case) within their home fandoms, and as a result losing those characters would not sting as bad in most players' eyes.
Basically, in my eyes, Smash's fighters all being pre-established video game charactes makes nearly all of them very much less expendable compared to characters designed specifically for traditional fighting game rosters, and it frustrates me when others do not seem to understand this viewpoint.

 

[AreJay25]

Did we like Project M Lucario?

PM Lucario was sick. Genuinely one of the coolest redesigns in that game for sure.

Also helps that he was utilizing fighting game mechanics before the fighting game characters actually showed up in the official series lol.

 

[Opossum]

Did we like Project M Lucario?

The one thing I especially liked about PM Lucario was actually the forward tilt lol. It was a really cool back handed strike that utilized Lucario's hand spikes in a fun way. The animation was a bit rough, but I definitely think it would be more refined in an official game anyway. Up Smash being changed to Sky Uppercut was also cool.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I think at a certain point, Sakurai and the devs just need to be more open to the idea of heavily reworking fighters in general. Smash might have a very large casual audience, but at this point, with the series having been around for decades and having no less than five games, one of which was released on two separate platforms, it feels like they're a little too worried about alienating people who main specific characters.

For another example, sure, a lot of Ganondorf mains are probably used to Falcondorf, and now Ganondorf with very few uniques moves including use of a sword, but how many more Ganondorf players and LoZ and Smash fans alike want a better balanced and far more lore-accurate Ganondorf instead?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The main reason a lot of franchises do an overhaul on a character is because the core gameplay mechanics actually do change. ...This doesn't happen with Smash. Sakurai doesn't do more than adjust the gameplay overall, nothing massive. This reflects on all of it. The closest thing is the mini-game changes(as some are just thrown out to begin with).

 

[ninjahmos]

It seems there's always malice and toxicity in the FGC, especially in Smash.

Although IIRC, Sakurai said he didn't really see Super Smash Bros. as a fighting game...for some reason.