Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[HyperSomari64]

There is one where the mascot is in fact the distilled embodiment of cool:

If licensed game count, then SpongeBob and Mickey Mouse are Scrimblos because Battle for Bikini Bottom and the Illusion series.

 

[Schnee117]

So, what other indie characters would you all want to see in the next Smash Bros.?

I go with Cuphead, and Celeste.

Celeste would be great but I'd be content if it just got a stage, music and a mii costume tbh.
Touhou more than warrants anything and it'd absolutely be Reimu first but bias speaking, I'd pick Sakuya.
Bloodstained would be amazing, having Miriam go against the Belmonts (and hopefully Alucard so we can recreate the superboss) would be awesome and she has loads of cool and fun abilities.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If Tohou gotta character I demand it be Cirno.

She's hilarious.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

If licensed game count, then SpongeBob and Mickey Mouse are Scrimblos because Battle for Bikini Bottom and the Illusion series.

Hey you won't see me objecting to getting Mickey in Smash Bros. Losing the integrity of a purely video game representation series might be worth it to get World of Illusion remixes:

 

[Nabbitfan730]

No way we saying a character wearing something as tame as a bikini top and bell-bottoms is form of sexism. Feel like you guys sometimes come up with ludicrous nit-picks as form of detraction for picks. You would have an heart-attack if went down the local beach during summer.

On that note, I would be happy with Shantae/Shovel Knight or Sans making on the roster. Indie Representation is always a plus and if Smash really is the celebration of gaming as most say then i'm pretty sure representing of key important of recent gaming is good step to such a goal.

I'm actually still playing Treasure Trove rn actually

 

[CannonStreak]

No way we saying a character wearing something as bikini top and bell-bottom is form of sexism. You guys would have an heart-attack if went down the local beach during summer.

On that note, I would be happy with Shantae/Shovel Knight or Sans making on the roster. Indie Representation is always a plus and if Smash really is the celebration of gaming as most say then i'm pretty sure representing of key important of recent gaming is good step to such a goal.

I'm actually still playing Treasure Trove rn actually

It wasn't just what the character wears. While I should have made it clear, just forget it and pretend I never said anything.

 

[Shinuto]

It wasn't just what the character wears. While I should have made it clear, just forget it and pretend I never said anything.

Oh no you don't, you practically derailed my entire question's discussion.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Nintendo has let Nekopara get released on their system (albeit with the full H-scenes taken out).

Let that sink in.

And it's still uncensored enough to get an M rating.

In contrast, Sony censored the PS4 version enough to make it E. (Or at least used to, it's now M.)

Also about Mythra...I've gotten used to the Smash design for a long time now. Blame Monolith for making the design DLC for XC2 when censored Mythra was just a PNG.

 

[CannonStreak]

Oh no you don't, you practically derailed my entire question's discussion.

Look, I am sorry for doing that. I was hoping it would not go too far off from what your intention was. Either way, at least I was not willing to continue down that line after a certain point. But yeah, I did not, and still don't want further trouble, okay?

 

[HyperSomari64]

Plok.

What the hell is Plok?

Headcanon Time!!!
He's from the same species as Rayman, but he has a scar or a deformity on his face, so he covers it.

 

[superprincess]

I have a hot take regarding side characters from franchises that don't have rotating casts. You know, your Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Kirby and Donkey Kong kinda.

People keep insisting that a new Animal Crossing or Splatoon character must happen because those series sell well, but I don't think anyone should get in solely because their franchise has lots of sales and somehow that warrants more "reps" in Smash.

I feel like every non-main character in the game has gotten in due to their own merits. Increased sales have never been the driving force behind a character's inclusion, at least not directly. The character needs to have a vocal fanbase, or a significant presence, or a unique gimmick they can bring into Smash. And while I see that in a few AC/Splatoon characters, I feel like fans watering it down to "Splatoon success = Squid Sisters/Off The Hook/DJ Octavio is more likely" is both an injustice to the characters and an inaccurate way to predict stuff.

All of this is to say I actually don't expect new fighters from these series at all. People treating Nook and a Splatoon character as "locks" is just premature and miscalculated I think. Tom Nook is iconic and a mascot of AC in his own right but I feel like Smash has "typecasted" him as Villager and Isabelle's FS. And Splatoon's whole deal is the uniqueness of fighting with Ink, which Inklings already represent perfectly. Does the series really need a new character?

Compare this to someone like Bowser, Peach, Zelda, Palutena, K. Rool, etc. All of them got in due to circumstances that couldn't be further from "their series sold well". It wasn't just "they're a Mario character, and Mario sells well so here's Rosalina!" I don't know why AC and Splatoon would get that kinda treatment when all their mechanics already feel represented in Smash. Idk, I just think sales have always misdirected speculation. I can get behind AC because the big cast is an important part of the franchise but Splatoon's marketing almost solely revolves around Inklings. AC kinda has the opposite problem of a big cast that just doesn't translate well to Smash/can't bring stuff that hasn't already been done to a degree. Compare that to the hugely important side characters in Mario and Zelda, or the fan favorites with the loudest fanbases like K. Rool or Ridley, who have all felt like they could take on a life of their own and bring something completely fresh and contrasting to the rest of their series cast.

 

[DarthEnderX]

And does it NOT help that his company was brought out by Microsoft long before he came into Smash Bros.?

Not to me. I only care about their status at the time Smash adds them.

Bayonetta uses the sexualization for style. A big part of that is because Bayonetta loves every minute of it.

I'm not sure "I made a character to be sexualized, but it's okay, cause I wrote them to want it" is the GOoJF card you think it is...

 

[CannonStreak]

Not to me. I only care about their status at the time Smash adds them.

I think that is kind of what I meant. I mean, by the time Steve was added, he was already with Microsoft, making it so that he was not an indie character anymore. That goes with what you said with Steve not being an indie character (if I recall correctly), right?

 

[DarthEnderX]

I know I said Shantae characters was sexist, but I said the designs were okay. It was how they were portrayed that I took issue with.

Personally, I think any downsides of her sexualization are outweighed by the upsides of her PoC-ness.

 

[Garteam]

I have a hot take regarding side characters from franchises that don't have rotating casts. You know, your Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Kirby and Donkey Kong kinda.

People keep insisting that a new Animal Crossing or Splatoon character must happen because those series sell well, but I don't think anyone should get in solely because their franchise has lots of sales and somehow that warrants more "reps" in Smash.

I feel like every non-main character in the game has gotten in due to their own merits. Increased sales have never been the driving force behind a character's inclusion, at least not directly. The character needs to have a vocal fanbase, or a significant presence, or a unique gimmick they can bring into Smash. And while I see that in a few AC/Splatoon characters, I feel like fans watering it down to "Splatoon success = Squid Sisters/Off The Hook/DJ Octavio is more likely" is both an injustice to the characters and an inaccurate way to predict stuff.

All of this is to say I actually don't expect new fighters from these series at all. People treating Nook and a Splatoon character as "locks" is just premature and miscalculated I think. Tom Nook is iconic and a mascot of AC in his own right but I feel like Smash has "typecasted" him as Villager and Isabelle's FS. And Splatoon's whole deal is the uniqueness of fighting with Ink, which Inklings already represent perfectly. Does the series really need a new character?

Compare this to someone like Bowser, Peach, Zelda, Palutena, K. Rool, etc. All of them got in due to circumstances that couldn't be further from "their series sold well". It wasn't just "they're a Mario character, and Mario sells well so here's Rosalina!" I don't know why AC and Splatoon would get that kinda treatment when all their mechanics already feel represented in Smash. Idk, I just think sales have always misdirected speculation. I can get behind AC because the big cast is an important part of the franchise but Splatoon's marketing almost solely revolves around Inklings. AC kinda has the opposite problem of a big cast that just doesn't translate well to Smash/can't bring stuff that hasn't already been done to a degree. Compare that to the hugely important side characters in Mario and Zelda, or the fan favorites with the loudest fanbases like K. Rool or Ridley, who have all felt like they could take on a life of their own and bring something completely fresh and contrasting to the rest of their series cast.

The growth of Animal Crossing and Splatoon since Ultimate's release is used as a premise in a larger argument for specific characters' inclusion or exclusion rather than as a full justification for any given character. People genuinely like and support these characters beyond just being reps for their franchises.

Tom Nook is a very iconic character that could use the new tools introduced in New Horizons or bells as a resource that has to be managed to pull off powerful attacks. The Octolings are highly popular in their home series and Splatoon has waves of weapons from 2 and 3 that are unrepresented in Inkling's moveset. DJ Octavio would provide our first mech moveset since Bowser Jr. and would likely provide our first music-based moveset. You could take Squid Sisters in several directions, be they a tag-team fighter like the Angry Beavers in NASBR or something more like the Ice Climbers.

 

[CannonStreak]

I was the one who initially brought this up, but I think it is safe to say we can move on from this sexism thing, right?

 

[Shinuto]

I was the one who initially brought this up, but I think it is safe to say we can move on from this sexism thing, right?

To bring it around, do you think Shantae's transformations would be singular attack, simple transformations like how they are in the game, or full blown new movesets like Pokemon Trainer?

 

[CannonStreak]

To bring it around, do you think Shantae's transformations would be singular attack, simple transformations like how they are in the game, or full blown new movesets like Pokemon Trainer?

Ah, thanks for bringing this up.

I'd go with the singular attack, simple transformations options, personally speaking.

 

[Shinuto]

Ah, thanks for bringing this up.

I'd go with the singular attack, simple transformations options, personally speaking.

Well when I said singluar attack I mean like Shantae tranforms, attacks and transforms back automatically, where simple transformation would be its ully controllable but it doesnt have a fully fleshed out moveset but still has attacks seperate to itself.

 

[CannonStreak]

Well when I said singluar attack I mean like Shantae tranforms, attacks and transforms back automatically, where simple transformation would be its ully controllable but it doesnt have a fully fleshed out moveset but still has attacks seperate to itself.

Oh, my bad.

I's say simple transformations, then.

 

[7NATOR]

I have a hot take regarding side characters from franchises that don't have rotating casts. You know, your Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Kirby and Donkey Kong kinda.

People keep insisting that a new Animal Crossing or Splatoon character must happen because those series sell well, but I don't think anyone should get in solely because their franchise has lots of sales and somehow that warrants more "reps" in Smash.

I feel like every non-main character in the game has gotten in due to their own merits. Increased sales have never been the driving force behind a character's inclusion, at least not directly. The character needs to have a vocal fanbase, or a significant presence, or a unique gimmick they can bring into Smash. And while I see that in a few AC/Splatoon characters, I feel like fans watering it down to "Splatoon success = Squid Sisters/Off The Hook/DJ Octavio is more likely" is both an injustice to the characters and an inaccurate way to predict stuff.

All of this is to say I actually don't expect new fighters from these series at all. People treating Nook and a Splatoon character as "locks" is just premature and miscalculated I think. Tom Nook is iconic and a mascot of AC in his own right but I feel like Smash has "typecasted" him as Villager and Isabelle's FS. And Splatoon's whole deal is the uniqueness of fighting with Ink, which Inklings already represent perfectly. Does the series really need a new character?

Compare this to someone like Bowser, Peach, Zelda, Palutena, K. Rool, etc. All of them got in due to circumstances that couldn't be further from "their series sold well". It wasn't just "they're a Mario character, and Mario sells well so here's Rosalina!" I don't know why AC and Splatoon would get that kinda treatment when all their mechanics already feel represented in Smash. Idk, I just think sales have always misdirected speculation. I can get behind AC because the big cast is an important part of the franchise but Splatoon's marketing almost solely revolves around Inklings. AC kinda has the opposite problem of a big cast that just doesn't translate well to Smash/can't bring stuff that hasn't already been done to a degree. Compare that to the hugely important side characters in Mario and Zelda, or the fan favorites with the loudest fanbases like K. Rool or Ridley, who have all felt like they could take on a life of their own and bring something completely fresh and contrasting to the rest of their series cast.

I say that the fact Toad hasn't gotten in yet despite being as Prominent as he is kind of shows that there's more to getting into Smash than just being Prominent in a High Selling Series.

I think the Most Important thing is that Splatoon and Animal Crossing are already Represented on the Playable Roster, and will continue to be so for Future Smash games, which is the most important thing. So on that Note, I think even though Both Series are at their High point right now, it doesn't mean we need another Character necessarily, but I do think an Inclusion like Tom Nook and Octoling is Sensible.

I will say though that at the Very least, Octoling and Tom Nook can be built off Pre-Existing Assets and Characters in the Form of Inkling and Isabelle Respectfully, which is how alot of Popular/Original Smash characters got their Start in Smash (Luigi, Jigglypuff, Falco, Ganondorf, Wolf, etc) as well as all of the Echoes and even Isabelle herself.

But I do agree there doesn't need to be a 100% Unique Character from these 2 Series. If there is it's understandable, but If it doesn't happen, That's also understandable

 

[Ivander]

I'm not sure "I made a character to be sexualized, but it's okay, cause I wrote them to want it" is the GOoJF card you think it is...

It's not. That said, there are actually women out there who don't mind being sexy and sometimes like to show off, so a character being made sexy and showing off shouldn't be a point for or against. Some people make or have their characters be more conservative, some other people make their characters sexualized and unafraid to show it. Let people make their creations how they want them to be and make your creations how you want them to be. There's nothing wrong with criticism, but don't be an ass or a hypocrite about it or to other people about it.
A character being made sexy and proud is as fine as a character being made conservative and proper, just like a man or woman wanting to be sexy and show off is as fine as a man or woman wanting to be more conservative and proper. If anything, it's just characters being just as varied as the people who created them.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Which just also happens to keep things like...his basic recovery in check.

Get knocked off an edge while LOM? You're deader than Little Mac.

Lowest level of Up Special costs 6 Mana and the highest is 16. If you run out of Mana for recovery then that’s your problem.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Lowest level of Up Special costs 6 Mana and the highest is 16. If you run out of Mana for recovery then that’s your problem.

And it's a problem I solve by not playing Hero.

You got anything better to do than engage in this "skill issue, bro" condescension?

To bring it around, do you think Shantae's transformations would be singular attack, simple transformations like how they are in the game, or full blown new movesets like Pokemon Trainer?

I don't see them spending multiple characters worth of dev resources on Shantae.

 

[JOJONumber691]

And it's a problem I solve by not playing Hero.

You got anything better to do than engage in this "skill issue, bro" condescension?

Good for you. Still a Skill issue though, bro.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Shantae's transformations would just be attacks.

 

[Kirbeh]

We really need individual support threads to go back up. It feels almost impossible to actually discuss characters in detail for one reason or another.

I don't want to start up the previous page's conversation again but with Shantae for example, why is it, that without fail, someone has to chime in with their distaste for her series art style/character designs and derail the conversation.

Not every topic is going to interest everyone, but at least give it a chance for the other people in the thread that do care to discuss it for a little.

And if you don't like something, cool, different strokes and all that. But keep it to yourself if you have nothing else to add. And if you want to discuss certain themes, portrayals in a particular series or the industry in general, make a dedicated thread for that maybe?

Sorry for that being essentially a rant but it gets really tiresome that, not just now, but over the years, be it here on Smashboards or elsewhere, trying to discuss Shantae or any number of other characters with a potentially revealing design almost always gets derailed and shutdown.

I enjoy the character, her series, it's genuinely one of my favorites and has been since for many years. I found out about it through the Smash speculation scene of all things! (Post Brawl's release) So it sucks that outside of a dedicated support thread you can't bring her up without people scoffing and trying to find fault in something subjective.

 

[BritishGuy54]

I have a hot take regarding side characters from franchises that don't have rotating casts. You know, your Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Kirby and Donkey Kong kinda.

People keep insisting that a new Animal Crossing or Splatoon character must happen because those series sell well, but I don't think anyone should get in solely because their franchise has lots of sales and somehow that warrants more "reps" in Smash.

I feel like every non-main character in the game has gotten in due to their own merits. Increased sales have never been the driving force behind a character's inclusion, at least not directly. The character needs to have a vocal fanbase, or a significant presence, or a unique gimmick they can bring into Smash. And while I see that in a few AC/Splatoon characters, I feel like fans watering it down to "Splatoon success = Squid Sisters/Off The Hook/DJ Octavio is more likely" is both an injustice to the characters and an inaccurate way to predict stuff.

All of this is to say I actually don't expect new fighters from these series at all. People treating Nook and a Splatoon character as "locks" is just premature and miscalculated I think. Tom Nook is iconic and a mascot of AC in his own right but I feel like Smash has "typecasted" him as Villager and Isabelle's FS. And Splatoon's whole deal is the uniqueness of fighting with Ink, which Inklings already represent perfectly. Does the series really need a new character?

Compare this to someone like Bowser, Peach, Zelda, Palutena, K. Rool, etc. All of them got in due to circumstances that couldn't be further from "their series sold well". It wasn't just "they're a Mario character, and Mario sells well so here's Rosalina!" I don't know why AC and Splatoon would get that kinda treatment when all their mechanics already feel represented in Smash. Idk, I just think sales have always misdirected speculation. I can get behind AC because the big cast is an important part of the franchise but Splatoon's marketing almost solely revolves around Inklings. AC kinda has the opposite problem of a big cast that just doesn't translate well to Smash/can't bring stuff that hasn't already been done to a degree. Compare that to the hugely important side characters in Mario and Zelda, or the fan favorites with the loudest fanbases like K. Rool or Ridley, who have all felt like they could take on a life of their own and bring something completely fresh and contrasting to the rest of their series cast.

I can agree that I’m not 100% confident on new Animal Crossing and Splatoon characters. I’d put them in a similar boat as Pikmin. It might be too samey, to a lesser extent.

Not even that they’re bad choices, but I can just see Nook being a semi-clone at most, just like Isabelle. And Octoling… the ink might be an issue locking it to alternate skin status for Inkling.

Still, I’d certainly appreciate being surprised if any character from these two series were to get into Smash.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

We really need individual support threads to go back up. It feels almost impossible to actually discuss characters in detail for one reason or another.

I don't want to start up the previous page's conversation again but with Shantae for example, why is it, that without fail, someone has to chime in with their distaste for her series art style/character designs and derail the conversation.


Sorry for that being essentially a rant but it gets really tiresome that, not just now, but over the years, be it here on Smashboards or elsewhere, trying to discuss Shantae or any number of other characters with a potentially revealing design almost always gets derailed and shutdown.

I enjoy the character, her series, it's genuinely one of my favorites and has been since for many years. I found out about it through the Smash speculation scene of all things! (Post Brawl's release) So it sucks that outside of a dedicated support thread you can't bring her up without people scoffing and trying to find fault in something subjective.

It's unfortunate. Men are allowing to be free in their clothing all the time in Gaming with people batting an eye and even glorifying it but when characters of women do like Bayo, Pythra or Shantae do in the tamest of wear, it's now a problem guised curbing sexism somehow

 

[Slime Scholar]

TBH I think people in the Smash community vastly overestimate Shantae's chances and relevance, and that had Wayforward not pushed for attention during the Smash ballot (using both Twitter and their Kickstarter for Half-Genie Hero) that nobody would be talking about her. Even her being a spirit is the result of WF sending Nintendo art of her and telling them "do what you will with this."

Not trying to disrespect Shantae here. I'd be happy enough to see her as a fighter because she's a fun character, and I even backed one of the games myself, but the way she gets talked up as this huge Indie icon is kind of surprising to me.

 

[fogbadge]

It's unfortunate. Men are allowing to be free in their clothing all the time in Gaming with people batting an eye and even glorifying it but when characters of women do like Bayo, Pythra or Shantae do in the tamest of wear, it's now a problem guised curbing sexism somehow

you do know this is has been an issue for along time brought up by many female gamers? in fact there are certain male characters in gaming who get accused of sexism in the for of hyper masculinity. this many not be the thread for it but it is widely seen as a problem

 

[Shinuto]

TBH I think people in the Smash community vastly overestimate Shantae's chances and relevance, and that had Wayforward not pushed for attention during the Smash ballot (using both Twitter and their Kickstarter for Half-Genie Hero) that nobody would be talking about her. Even her being a spirit is the result of WF sending Nintendo art of her and telling them "do what you will with this."

Not trying to disrespect Shantae here. I'd be happy enough to see her as a fighter because she's a fun character, and I even backed one of the games myself, but the way she gets talked up as this huge Indie icon is kind of surprising to me.

You are vastly overestimating that specific event/action's influence man. That did like a small boost during the immediate time period but its not this BOOM event that has persisted since then. Dont be such an assumptious fool.

you do know this is has been an issue for along time brought up by many female gamers? in fact there are certain male characters in gaming who get accused of sexism in the for of hyper masculinity. this many not be the thread for it but it is widely seen as a problem

Maybe it shouldnt be seen as a problem because most instances ARENT a problem.

 

[fogbadge]

Maybe it shouldnt be seen as a problem because most instances ARENT a problem.

that’s something you’ll have to take up with the gamers who’ve complained

 

[Shinuto]

that’s something you’ll have to take up with the gamers who’ve complained

those people would smash their fists into a mirror and scream at everyone to make their hand stop bleeding.

 

[Garteam]

TBH I think people in the Smash community vastly overestimate Shantae's chances and relevance, and that had Wayforward not pushed for attention during the Smash ballot (using both Twitter and their Kickstarter for Half-Genie Hero) that nobody would be talking about her. Even her being a spirit is the result of WF sending Nintendo art of her and telling them "do what you will with this."

Not trying to disrespect Shantae here. I'd be happy enough to see her as a fighter because she's a fun character, and I even backed one of the games myself, but the way she gets talked up as this huge Indie icon is kind of surprising to me.

Shantae's weird to me because she is simultaneously in a better and worse position than she was going into Ultimate. She was acknowledged as a popular request by Sakurai himself through a Mii costume and the Shantae franchise itself continues to go strong as a relatively notable indie success. On the other hand, her support has somewhat diminished, competition among indies and third parties generally has increased, and WayForward doesn't seem as attached to Nintendo as they were in the 3DS/Wii U era (although they're both seemingly on good terms).

I'd say she certainly has a chance of inclusion, but I don't think she's nearly as slept on as other third parties like Bomberman and Nakoruru.

 

[fogbadge]

those people would smash their fists into a mirror and scream at everyone to make their hand stop bleeding.

yes it’s not like there’s a history of this sort of thing that women have been objecting to long before video games

 

[Shinuto]

yes it’s not like there’s a history of this sort of thing that women have been objecting to long before video games

I'm not arguing against that, but there are a lot of people making problems where there isn't one.

 

[fogbadge]

I'm not arguing against that, but there are a lot of people making problems where there isn't one.

perhaps. but it may be worth listening to what they have to say

 

[Shinuto]

perhaps. but it may be worth listening to what they have to say

Hmm depends on the person.

 

[Slime Scholar]

You are vastly overestimating that specific event/action's influence man. That did like a small boost during the immediate time period but its not this BOOM event that has persisted since then. Dont be such an assumptious fool.

If you want to insult me that's cool, but I just don't agree. Obviously it's hyperbole to attribute all of her popularity at the time to just Wayforward's actions, especially since she's still being asked for today. But they were absolutely fanning the flames themselves with cheeky "see you in Smash " tweets that sent some people into a frenzy. Who ends up being a popular request is often strongly influenced by who is perceived as likely or at least plausible and the community absolutely leaned into that (even though WF themselves were just goofing around).

I think that kind of thing contributes to characters becoming grandfathered into discussion. Mini-cultures develop around "getting them in" and they become disproportionately present in discussion compared to their actual merits as a character. See also: Geno.