New Tech? (SH bair-> auto cancel up air)

[noobftw]

I was messing around with zelda and practicing moves you can do twice in the air. There are plenty of things you can do like double bair, double fair (I actually recently found this one out cause I'm bad xD), bair->fair, fair->bair, bair into nair, and etc.
And then I realized there should be enough frames in the short hop to be able to fit an auto cancel up air after a bair.
I haven't seen it in video nor have I seen people talk about it so I think it's probably new tech :D.

The advantages of having this seems pretty amazing to me. Zelda has so many options off of a SH bair whether it's waveland, another bair, naryu's, and etc. Adding the autocancel up air means you have a way to start a combo while pressuring.
Auto cancel up air to me is one of zelda's most reliable ways to get a free LK or other follow ups.
A plus side to this is most people don't know about the autocancel and it looks like nothing is really hitting you so they won't see it coming or DI it well most of the time.

Actually doing it I can't record it to show but according to the frame data. The short hop is 46 frames and bair ends on frame 34. So you use the remaining frames to put out an up air at the end of it. I found that when zelda goes back to straight in the air it's the time to do it.

Another thing I've found is that you can full hop nair into an auto cancel up air. I'm still trying to think of the application of this one though although it's a lot easier to do than the SH bair version.
I'd write more but I feel like the post would get really long and you guys probably would understand it's applications.

Sorry I can't get a giffy cat or videos of this since I don't record stuff. But I hope it's straight forward enough for people to get.

 

[Red(SP)]

@ N noobftw

What's good noob. Haven't seen you in ages since Jump Ultimate Stars and wifi.
There's a video that talks about some of that. It also includes some stuff you may not know.

Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShF-GKEbHw

 

[noobftw]

@ N noobftw

What's good noob. Haven't seen you in ages since Jump Ultimate Stars and wifi.
There's a video that talks about some of that. It also includes some stuff you may not know.

Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShF-GKEbHw

Oh woah it's Red LOOOL what a small world it is.
Also that video doesn't include what I was talking about. It goes over auto cancel up air and shows it's uses. But it doesn't show how you can do a bair and an auto cancel up air in one short hop.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Haven't tested this, but I *definitely* plan on pulling this out, if it works. Looking at the frame data, it should be possible. Double fair is possible, though difficult. Bair > upair requires 43 frames, while double fair requires 44.

Cross-up bair into an autocancel up-air behind them would be stupidly good shield pressure for a character with virtually 0 shield pressure. Autocancel up-air is +0 on shield, and since this is such a tight window, you'll probably be hitting their shield 1 or 2 frames before landing, which means that you'll be getting every little bit of that sweet sweet frame advantage. Nice find, @ N noobftw

 

[Red(SP)]

Haven't tested this, but I *definitely* plan on pulling this out, if it works. Looking at the frame data, it should be possible. Double fair is possible, though difficult. Bair > upair requires 43 frames, while double fair requires 44.

Cross-up bair into an autocancel up-air behind them would be stupidly good shield pressure for a character with virtually 0 shield pressure. Autocancel up-air is +0 on shield, and since this is such a tight window, you'll probably be hitting their shield 1 or 2 frames before landing, which means that you'll be getting every little bit of that sweet sweet frame advantage. Nice find, @ N noobftw

I was thinking the same thing. I don't really know Zelda (actually started getting interested in her recently) and saw this as an opportunity to use for shield pressure of the sort.

Really love this autocancel stuff. I need more of it.

 

[noobftw]

Haven't tested this, but I *definitely* plan on pulling this out, if it works. Looking at the frame data, it should be possible. Double fair is possible, though difficult. Bair > upair requires 43 frames, while double fair requires 44.

Cross-up bair into an autocancel up-air behind them would be stupidly good shield pressure for a character with virtually 0 shield pressure. Autocancel up-air is +0 on shield, and since this is such a tight window, you'll probably be hitting their shield 1 or 2 frames before landing, which means that you'll be getting every little bit of that sweet sweet frame advantage. Nice find, @ N noobftw

Oh it works. I spent literally an hr doing practicing it before I posted this thread. The applications seem pretty good for it as well. Especially since SH bair already gives a lot of pressure options and it makes autocancel up air actually more applicable in game.

 

[ECHOnce]

The reason why you haven't seen other Zeldas do this much is...probably because there aren't many safe applications for it. I guess it could be used for a weird shield pressure mixup? There aren't many characters that could get comboed with Uair off of Bair unless they're DI'ing in at low %s.

I have gotten a few F-throw --> sour/soft Bair into Uair --> Nair/LKs, but that's just styling and they still have to DI in lol.

 

[noobftw]

The reason why you haven't seen other Zeldas do this much is...probably because there aren't many safe applications for it. I guess it could be used for a weird shield pressure mixup? There aren't many characters that could get comboed with Uair off of Bair unless they're DI'ing in at low %s.

I have gotten a few F-throw --> sour/soft Bair into Uair --> Nair/LKs, but that's just styling and they still have to DI in lol.

I'm not saying it combos into it. I'm just saying it's another option rather than another Bair.
Bair->bair pressure is very strong against plenty of characters. And then combining it with b-verse naryu's, waveland, auto cancel upair, or tomahawk grab it becomes actually a good option because you can mix it up with these other ones.
Also I think it's relatively safe on shield. I hope other people read up on this. Hopefully by saturday I can have a match where I just do it to get the giffy to show what it does.

 

[Kaeldiar]

So if this becomes a useful thing...we'll call this..."Noob's Slayer," right?

 

[WhiteLightnin]

@ Red(SP) Great to see you Red! It's been awhile.

@ N noobftw While you could use this bair- upair option in singles, I imagine you would see it shine much more in doubles. The reason behind that would have mostly to do with how you space bair to begin with. I could see some use for it where the bair doesn't hit and the opponent rushes in to be caught by the upair if a second bair would result in a sourspot instead. It could serve as a mixup to nair.

 

[drsusredfish]

So if this becomes a useful thing...we'll call this..."Noob's Slayer," right?

That name is for Zelda in general. lol

 

[BlueLettuce]

This seems like it would be extremely unsafe in singles. Sour spot bair -> uair may work but as far as pressuring a shield goes you have to suck yourself too close to them to hit the uair that it may not be the best option. It could serve as a mix-up for those who don't know it auto cancels. They may drop shield and be hit by, say a dsmash. BUT that puts you in a very bad position if their shield stays up.

 

[Getsafe]

This seems like it would be extremely unsafe in singles. Sour spot bair -> uair may work but as far as pressuring a shield goes you have to suck yourself too close to them to hit the uair that it may not be the best option. It could serve as a mix-up for those who don't know it auto cancels. They may drop shield and be hit by, say a dsmash. BUT that puts you in a very bad position if their shield stays up.

Not really, if you cross up you're in a great position, if you don't you still have options even if they'll be mostly offensive/evasive

 

[ZGE]

Not really, if you cross up you're in a great position, if you don't you still have options even if they'll be mostly offensive/evasive

If you sourspot bair (or even sweetspot bair) on shield, a good player with a good OOS option can punish before Zelda can do another move if she's not aware of her spacing. I don't understand where the cross up is either.

 

[noobftw]

From playing a lot of friendlies this week, I don't use this often. I only use it to simply add another depth to the pressure.
When people shine they don't only double shine, They can double shine, wavedash, hit another move on shield, shine->grab, etc. Given these options is what makes shine pressure truly a ridiculous thing to fight against defensively.
While SH bair is a lot worse than shine it still can give various forms of pressure. Double bair on shield is actually really hard to punish and mixing in bair into a waveland, bair into auto cancel up air, single fastfall bair, bair into naryu, and the other things you can possibly think of. Doing a combination of all these things makes the some things that are usually unsafe like bair into auto cancel up air actually catch people off guard and hit them.

 

[BlueLettuce]

When people shine they don't only double shine, They can double shine, wavedash, hit another move on shield, shine->grab, etc. Given these options is what makes shine pressure truly a ridiculous thing to fight against defensively.
While SH bair is a lot worse than shine it still can give various forms of pressure. Double bair on shield is actually really hard to punish and mixing in bair into a waveland, bair into auto cancel up air, single fastfall bair, bair into naryu, and the other things you can possibly think of. Doing a combination of all these things makes the some things that are usually unsafe like bair into auto cancel up air actually catch people off guard and hit them.

Kind of apples and oranges IMO. After sweetspotting bair on shield the opponent has roughly a 15 frame window to punish before we can do our second aerial. The reason shine pressure (done right) is so good is because there is barely a window to punish. Yes they can mix it up to bait out an attempted "punish" but we actually have a window where we cannot act. Making it much more difficult to keep the pressure on shield.

Most of the pressure a LK exerts in my mind is fear based. The fact it comes out so quickly makes people wary when around her. Maybe it is my inexperience but in my mind a good Zelda mixup on shield would be fade-away bair, late bair and empty hop -> grab.

 

[noobftw]

Kind of apples and oranges IMO. After sweetspotting bair on shield the opponent has roughly a 15 frame window to punish before we can do our second aerial. The reason shine pressure (done right) is so good is because there is barely a window to punish. Yes they can mix it up to bait out an attempted "punish" but we actually have a window where we cannot act. Making it much more difficult to keep the pressure on shield.

Most of the pressure a LK exerts in my mind is fear based. The fact it comes out so quickly makes people wary when around her. Maybe it is my inexperience but in my mind a good Zelda mixup on shield would be fade-away bair, late bair and empty hop -> grab.

Well mix ups are really just a mental thing tbh. Throwing more things into the mix adds confusion. It's why things like shine grab, jiggs up throw into up air tech trap, or tomahawk grab works.
I don't think this is an amazing tech that is always useful too. It's just something that adds more.

 

[ZGE]

But if people realize they have 15 frames to punish sweetspot bair on shield, the mixup becomes moot.

 

[Kaeldiar]

But if people realize they have 15 frames to punish sweetspot bair on shield, the mixup becomes moot.

It's closer to 25, actually, for bair > up-air. I crunched the numbers today, and I believe I came up with 23 frames if you hit with frame 5 bair, 21 if you hit with frame 8. Assuming I did it correctly.

 

[noobftw]

no it's 15 frames just after a bair on shield. Zelda's moves are pretty punishable lol

 

[ZGE]

My point here is that this shouldn't work at all on good players and that it's very easily punishable.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Fair warning about b/fair>jazz hands; it is very difficult to make safe on shield in actual matches. The hard part is making the b/fair safe since their hit boxes are so awful if you don't connect with the sweet spot. Any character with a fast nair/OoS option will stuff you out before you even leave the aerial animation. Bair>jazz hands cross up has the most potential but you have to be very careful about OoS options. Short hop b/fair>LCNL and b reversed LCNL is also not safe on shield but it will punish some of the OoS options that beat jazz hands. Make sure you are mixing it up! Auto cancelled up air has a lot of potential and I'm excited to see threads like this opening discussion for it;s possibilities.

 

[ShadowKing]

It could be a tech