New Tech Discovered ?? I need your help !! *Deprecated*

[koken]

Yesterday I was testing the Uair that all began with this thread of @Freezie KO .

Please, for the sake of our metagame and to improve our Olimar's options, read the entire post.
Also this is just my opinion and can be wrong or right, don't take it as an absolute truth. I want to learn and want to help, so please have patience and do some effort to understand me (and my poor english too xD).

If I'm totally wrong and this turns out to be false or lame, I will dig a hole and I will bury myself... jajaja.

Let's begin: I started up with Mario and then Luigi, in order to give solid information about the % and everything else.
First of all I tried to do it when your enemy is on the first jump (full jump), with the help of the cpu jumping. Ok with that, data's Mario Ok, till I get to Luigi.
Luigi seemed to be the same to Mario but with little differences, so I drop it for something more interesting as making this thing as a combo.

I began with Mario again to doing it as a Dthrow + Uair combo.
The data I collected against Mario before I stopped was:

• 111% Purple
• 127% Red
• 129% Yellow (with double jump)
• ?% Blue (can't do it because of the knockback)
• 150% White (with double jump)

And HERE was the TREMENDOUS discovery.

There were times when, after the Dthrow, Mario was spinning around on his own axis during the trajectory, affecting the distance (less) and height (less), causing a totally different result against the common throw.
What? How? Why? When? Who?
This was a TREMENDOUS discovery because the combo was so much easily to do it (seriously, the difference is huge) and seemed to me (needs further investigation, test, etc) that was in useless state, so it could be a true combo.

I tried, and tried, and tried but nothing came up. Press some buttons after, at the same time and before the throw, but nothing seemed to change. I counted some seconds, I positioned myself on some specific place at the platform, running grab, distance of the grab, calculated the stars on the sky, the sun light, etc. Nothing seemed to consistently work.

I asked some top players that I had at hand (not many... just 2 and they don't answer me) about WHEN the enemy does this "animation" and WHY, but the best answer I got was "It is a random animation".
That really doesn't looked like true to me, so I keep trying till I get it to work 3 times in a row.
At this point, I said to myself "it is less possible to have 3 times a N° 9 Judge Hammer from Mr.G&W in a row, so does not seem random to me".

Until I noticed (not really sure) that when Mario's feet were together on the "trying to release" animation while grabbing him, he tended to did the spin around his own axis during the trajectory when I released the Dthrow.
I always used a Purple to Dthrow.
First I was thinking this was a matter of luck but when I succeeded at doing it 3 times in a row, I thought this can (and SHOULD) be mastered to become a huge discovery and certainly a new tech (if so, please don't kill me for saying this).

The bad thing is that sometimes works, sometimes don't, the % of damage seems to affect, sometimes don't.
I'm pretty sure that it doesn't work from 0% to 80%, but certainly needs more research. Imo, it works from 95% and beyond.

So I'm asking you, begging you, to everyone, to anyone, as an Olimar mains or whoever, PLEASE HELP on discovering the exact way/input/time to master this and do it always. This will be a an amazing buff cause we will kill every single %$&"#$ time with a Dthrow + Uair (Purple) and there will be no escape at all (I may be wrong, so don't take me literally)
Something like a Hoo - Ha I guess, let me dream...

Waiting for your answers, comments, insults, critiques, help, tips, whatever.

If this turn to be just my imagination, @ Myran I will appreciate to delete this thread if possible XD.

Here is an example of the "spin around his own axis" mean, the problem with this example is the high damage that cause the big knockback after the Dthrow.

 

[Myran]

Hmm that seems interesting. I won't be able to look at it this weekend, because I'll be out of town. I'll do it when I come back though.

 

[Blue Banana]

Hey, so I did a lot of testing today on the spinning animation from a purple dthrow. I tested in Training mostly on Omega Battlefield with Mario as the CPU dummy.
I feel like getting the spinning animation seems random on one hand, but it also seems to be based on timing on the other. The animation occurred three times consecutively after Mario's legs are together one time, but I can never get it to occur consistently. I'm feeling like it's really random on when it occurs.

However, I did some other testing involving the Dthrow -> Uair. Dthrow -> Uair registers as a true combo in Training even at high percents, which is a surprise to me because I've been using it as a true combo at mid-low percents. The timing is a bit tight, though; you have to immediately dash and do a full hop for the followup Uair; a little too late and the opponent will probably airdodge or do a nair to smack you away.

I can't tell from your testing if you tested out the same thing as I did; if you did, then you can disregard my notes coming up.

Because Dthrow -> Uair registers as a true combo at high percents, I wanted to see if it's possible to KO using this. I used a purple for the Uair because it has the highest KO potential. For the Dthrow, every color seems to work except for blues due to their higher knockback. Around 115%-120%, Red Dthrow to Purple Uair can KO CPU Mario off the top of the screen. Yellow, white, or purple Dthrow to Purple Uair can achieve the same thing around 113%-115%. Anything higher than that and there will be too much knockback to follow up with the Uair.

Even though this potentially means that Olimar does have a way to KO from a throw aside from Blue Uthrow, the main concern that I have with this is the opponent's DI. I don't have the capability of testing it out manually, but sometimes the CPU DI's from the Dthrow too far away to followup with the Uair. It tends to happen most commonly with yellows for me, though I'm not sure if it's just the CPU DI'ing randomly. The combo seems to be the most consistent with Red Dthrow; because reds deal less damage and knockback from throws, it's harder for the CPU to DI away from Dthrow and easier for me to land Uair. Another problem I seem to have with the combo is that due to the Pikmin AI, inputting Uair sometimes results in no hitbox because the purple Pikmin didn't jump in time, which could potentially lead to a punish on Olimar.

 

[koken]

Yes, I did all those test too.

That was something I was asking myself, sometimes I felt the CPU DI'ed. That could be the reason too why sometimes works and sometimes don't.

But I tested against a human player and ask him to not DI at all, but using Mewtwo. It worked 2 times in a row, but couldn't make it anymore and (or) consistently, without saying that doing it against Mewtwo was very very difficult because of his "release" animation.

I'm sadly starting to thinking this could be random ... but I don't want to believe it, cause (I think) it would happen before the 90% - 100% randomly and I never have seen that happening.

According to the combo issue, I do believe it's a true combo.
But I think the best way to accomplish is to using a Purple Dthrow or Purple Uthrow.
It works well with Red Dthrow -> Purple Uair, put in my opinion, 2 Purples are far better.

I really want to think this can be mastered and I hope we can discover how, this will be a tremendous advantage to our game .

 

[Blue Banana]

I messed around with D-throw -> Uair again. As preface, I always used the purple for Uair and never used blues for Dthrow.

- The combo can KO characters off the top, ranging from ~100%-140%. Lightweights get KO'd around 100, middleweights around 115-120, and heavies around 135. The hardest character to KO vertically, King Dedede, gets knocked out around 140 from Red Dthrow -> Uair.
- I feel like that Red Dthrow seems to be the most consistent to get the Uair KO. The lower knockback from the throw makes it easier to followup, and in my testing red is the only color that can get the combo to register as a full combo on some characters.
- Yellow Dthrows are odd in that the opponent will be sometimes knocked back too far away to followup with Uair, or they get knocked high enough that I need to use a double jump to register the true combo. I'm not sure if that's the CPU's DI or an inherent trait of yellow Dthrow, because the combo seems more consistent with whites and purples.
- Speaking of DI, don't know how it will affect it, because the CPU's seems to never to DI effectively away from Dthrow in Training. Any input on how DI affects the combo is appreciated, specifically if the opponent DI's completely horizontally away from Dthrow.
- Body size seems to affect how difficult it is to get the combo. In my experience, small characters like Mario or Luigi require red Dthrow to work while large, wide-bodied characters like DK can work with any color Dthrow except blue.
- Falling speed also seems to affect the difficulty of getting the combo. Fastfallers like Fox or Greninja can get KO'd by a true combo with every non-blue color Dthrow -> Uair. Fox's fall speed is so fast that red Dthrow works from as low as 100 to as high as 122. On another note, since Dedede is both wide-bodied and a fast faller, he is fairly susceptible to the true combo.
- The distance between Olimar and the opponent when he's grabbed seems to factor whether he can get the true combo or not. In some cases, grabbing the opponent from the maximum grab range possible with a yellow or white makes it the combo not true. On the other hand, grabbing the opponent up close from a standing grab or running into the opponent with a dash grab with the same color seems to work because the distance isn't as large. Reds don't seem to depend on the distance from the opponent due to the lower knockback.
- Pivot grabs aren't really consistent in getting the combo to work, and it's probably because, for some reason, the distance between Olimar and the opponent is always fixed to be too far away to followup with Uair, even with red Dthrow. I only got it to work on Fox because of his fall speed and, in another case, a white Dthrow to yellow Uair on Mario(?) at around 135%, in which you're better off using Blue Uthrow w/ rage.

Now, I just want to see if this can be applied effectively in an actual match.

EDIT: Did a bit more testing involving DI input from the opponent.

I think the main potential problem with the Dthrow -> Uair combo as a KO option is that the opponent can simply DI away from you. I didn't try doing the actual combo because I don't have another person to handle a second controller, but I did look at how DI would affect the angle the opponent would come out of Dthrow. Tilting the control stick horizontally out from Dthrow would result in a 45 degree angle, rather than the 60-70 degree angle for no DI. The angle seems too horizontally far away for any aerial followup at 100+% ( tested on Luigi).

Since knowledgeable opponents would probably DI away from you at lower percents to prevent followup aerials, they probably know what to do if they get hit by Dthrow at a high percent. If they don't and get KO'd by the Uair, then they'll eventually wise up and start DI'ing away from you.

 

[koken]

I messed around with D-throw -> Uair again. As preface, I always used the purple for Uair and never used blues for Dthrow.

- The combo can KO characters off the top, ranging from ~100%-140%. Lightweights get KO'd around 100, middleweights around 115-120, and heavies around 135. The hardest character to KO vertically, King Dedede, gets knocked out around 140 from Red Dthrow -> Uair.
- I feel like that Red Dthrow seems to be the most consistent to get the Uair KO. The lower knockback from the throw makes it easier to followup, and in my testing red is the only color that can get the combo to register as a full combo on some characters.
- Yellow Dthrows are odd in that the opponent will be sometimes knocked back too far away to followup with Uair, or they get knocked high enough that I need to use a double jump to register the true combo. I'm not sure if that's the CPU's DI or an inherent trait of yellow Dthrow, because the combo seems more consistent with whites and purples.
- Speaking of DI, don't know how it will affect it, because the CPU's seems to never to DI effectively away from Dthrow in Training. Any input on how DI affects the combo is appreciated, specifically if the opponent DI's completely horizontally away from Dthrow.
- Body size seems to affect how difficult it is to get the combo. In my experience, small characters like Mario or Luigi require red Dthrow to work while large, wide-bodied characters like DK can work with any color Dthrow except blue.
- Falling speed also seems to affect the difficulty of getting the combo. Fastfallers like Fox or Greninja can get KO'd by a true combo with every non-blue color Dthrow -> Uair. Fox's fall speed is so fast that red Dthrow works from as low as 100 to as high as 122. On another note, since Dedede is both wide-bodied and a fast faller, he is fairly susceptible to the true combo.
- The distance between Olimar and the opponent when he's grabbed seems to factor whether he can get the true combo or not. In some cases, grabbing the opponent from the maximum grab range possible with a yellow or white makes it the combo not true. On the other hand, grabbing the opponent up close from a standing grab or running into the opponent with a dash grab with the same color seems to work because the distance isn't as large. Reds don't seem to depend on the distance from the opponent due to the lower knockback.
- Pivot grabs aren't really consistent in getting the combo to work, and it's probably because, for some reason, the distance between Olimar and the opponent is always fixed to be too far away to followup with Uair, even with red Dthrow. I only got it to work on Fox because of his fall speed and, in another case, a white Dthrow to yellow Uair on Mario(?) at around 135%, in which you're better off using Blue Uthrow w/ rage.

Now, I just want to see if this can be applied effectively in an actual match.

EDIT: Did a bit more testing involving DI input from the opponent.

I think the main potential problem with the Dthrow -> Uair combo as a KO option is that the opponent can simply DI away from you. I didn't try doing the actual combo because I don't have another person to handle a second controller, but I did look at how DI would affect the angle the opponent would come out of Dthrow. Tilting the control stick horizontally out from Dthrow would result in a 45 degree angle, rather than the 60-70 degree angle for no DI. The angle seems too horizontally far away for any aerial followup at 100+% ( tested on Luigi).

Since knowledgeable opponents would probably DI away from you at lower percents to prevent followup aerials, they probably know what to do if they get hit by Dthrow at a high percent. If they don't and get KO'd by the Uair, then they'll eventually wise up and start DI'ing away from you.

Are you taking in count the spin around his own axis animation? I think you didn't, then it won't matter because as you state, the DI affects heavily the result of the Dthrow. I still believe the animation won't let you DI properly, but this is only my opinion.

The usual people who I play over time and know how I play with Olimar, are used to DI forward the Dthrow (which leads to a Bair most of the time) and DI backward the Dthrow (which tends to make more difficult to connect the Fair). I'm not quite sure if they do Up-Forward or Up-Backward but I don't think it would be a wise choice because it will help you to connect the Uair.

Anyway, after a lot (seriously) of research... I'm really close to quit the "Tech". This makes me very sad though.
It really seems to be very hard to master, like is somehow random or something, and doesn't seems to be affected by a precise stuff in order to repeat it successfully.

I'm almost done for further investigation, I lost the hope because I'm not getting any progress, so I have to say THANK YOU VERY MUCH for those who helped me about this .

 

[Indexxical!]

I'm also a bit busy myself, but I will definitely screw around with this as well. From looking at the video however, this might have a more likely chance of occuring at high percentages.

 

[NotAsian]

RED PIKMIN UPTHROW TO PURPLE UP AIR!!!!!!! FORGET THE DOWNTHROW!!!

There's something about reds throws they don't change too much with higher presents The enemy is always in the right spot for a follow up, purples work for a little but then they go too high

Here's what ive found in training mode but I guess the problem is we are at the same precents so rage mode in affect
Dedede -starts at 115 ends at 155
Kirby 75 to 90

Working on more I'm not sure if this is guaranteed or not I don't have anyone to help, let me know what you guys think

 

[koken]

RED PIKMIN UPTHROW TO PURPLE UP AIR!!!!!!! FORGET THE DOWNTHROW!!!

There's something about reds throws they don't change too much with higher presents The enemy is always in the right spot for a follow up, purples work for a little but then they go too high

Here's what ive found in training mode but I guess the problem is we are at the same precents so rage mode in affect
Dedede -starts at 115 ends at 155
Kirby 75 to 90

Working on more I'm not sure if this is guaranteed or not I don't have anyone to help, let me know what you guys think

Rage doesn't exist in training mode .

 

[NotAsian]

Oh really WTF I see them smoking right at 100 IDK why it wouldn't

 

[koken]

Oh really WTF I see them smoking right at 100 IDK why it wouldn't

Sadly is just the animation.


@ Myran do you think it is a good idea to close this thread due to the obvious reason that finally it wasn't a real tech ?

 

[Myran]

Sadly is just the animation.


@ Myran do you think it is a good idea to close this thread due to the obvious reason that finally it wasn't a real tech ?

Uhh no need to close it I'd say. We figured out the information, and I'm sure the thread will die down over time.