New Smash Mechanic: Double Layer Perspective

[BluePikmin11]

Read the picture:

What do you think of the idea?

Extra bits about Double Layer Perspective:

You can press the shield button and up(or down) while on the ledge to move to the other layer, now that's edgehogging.

You can angle all attacks.

More examples:
-Sonic's Homing Attack can attack an opponent from the other layer and move to that layer if near. Wouldn't make sense if it only homed on one layer.
-Diddy's Bananas only land on one layer, some strategies can be thought of.
-Snake's mine attack can hit only on one layer, some strategies can be thought of.

Point for now:
It's a new kind of balance, with more strategies.

By quickly pressing up(or down) on any attack, the attack goes on an angled direction

More ideas:
-Red Shells can attack on both layers, just one layer at a time though.
-Motion Sensor Bombs land only on one layer.
-Mr. Saturn can move from one layer to another.
-Bob-ombs can move from one layer to another.

-Donkey Kong's D-Spec can hit from another layer if near.
-Ness' U-Spec can travel from layer to layer by pressing the shield button.
-Jigglypuff's U-Spec can hit from behind.
-Link's U-Spec can hit on both layers.

(This idea has yet to fully develop)

 

[FalKoopa]

While it definitely is interesting, it can make the gameplay overly defensive.

It will make edge-hogging much less useful.

 

[JOE!]

It will also make fast characters really, really stupid as they can now cover like, 4x the area compared to slower moving ones now if they choose to not commit to offense.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

So like Bleach DS lines except instead of a slow vulnerable line jump you can move between layers as every single defensive option?

Sounds way to defensive for 1v1 or big maps, but with 4-8 players that would be kinda cool I guess.

 

[BluePikmin11]

While it definitely is interesting, it can make the gameplay overly defensive.

It will make edge-hogging much less useful.

Hmm.. I GOT IT. You can press the shield button while on the ledge to move to the other layer, now that's edgehogging.

The idea needs time to fully envelope.

 

[FalKoopa]

Hmm.. I GOT IT. You can press the shield button while on the ledge to move to the other layer, now that's edgehogging.

Don't forget that pressing shield button while holding on to the ledge causes the player to roll onto the stage.

 

[BluePikmin11]

It will also make fast characters really, really stupid as they can now cover like, 4x the area compared to slower moving ones now if they choose to not commit to offense.

Remember, some characters have attacks the hit on both layers, for example:
Bowser's A standard combo can hit from the other layer. From a visionary perspective, if you were on layer 2 and tried to hit someone on layer 1 with a A Standard combo, you can see the Bowser slashes from the other layer.
Plus you can angle all attacks.

 

[FalKoopa]

Remember, some characters have attacks the hit on both layers, for example:
Bowser's A standard combo can hit from the other layer. From a visionary perspective, if you were on layer 2 and tried to hit someone on layer 1 with a A Standard combo, you can see the Bowser slashes from the other layer.

That defeats the very purpose of the mechanic.

 

[BluePikmin11]

That defeats the very purpose of the mechanic.

Some attacks hit from just one layer, like Mario's A Standard combo.
*unfinished statement

 

[JOE!]

so the game now focuses heavily on characters that reliably hit both layers?

 

[FalKoopa]

Would make Bowser top-tier.

 

[BluePikmin11]

You if you get hit by an opponent, you get hit lag. So if you could keep holding off an opponent on one layer, you can get a KO.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Would make Bowser top-tier.

That would actually make him balanced too, compared to his slowness on speed and attacks.

 

[FalKoopa]

Correction: It's not hit lag, it's hit stun.

but still didn't get the point you're trying to make.

 

[BluePikmin11]

More examples:
-Sonic's Homing Attack can attack an opponent from the other layer and move to that layer if near. Wouldn't make sense if it only homed on one layer.
-Diddy's Bananas only land on one layer, some strategies can be thought of.
-Snake's mine attack can hit only on one layer, some strategies can be thought of.


Point for now:
It's a new kind of balance, with more strategies.

 

[FalKoopa]

it just occured to me...

we can go to the layer behind and beat up the pokemon trainer. Now THAT would be interesting.

 

[BluePikmin11]

it just occured to me...

we can go to the layer behind and beat up the pokemon trainer. Now THAT would be interesting.

That's an interesting idea, see the new ideas were making.

More ideas:
-Red Shells can attack on both layers, just one layer at a time though.
-Motion Sensor Bombs land only on one layer.
-Mr. Saturn can move from one layer to another.
-Bob-ombs can move from one layer to another.

 

[Zuby]

Sounds really interesting, but I don't know if I'd want it as the standard until it's been fully explored. Perhaps trial it in a handful of stages (or as a toggle) and if it works out well make it the standard for SSB5.

 

[Vann Accessible]

Interesting idea, but I think it would make the game inaccessible to casual gamers.

Sakurai wouldn't go for it.

 

[lordvaati]

..strangely I can see the 3DS version doing this.

also I approve of anything that makes Bowser broken more viable.

 

[Big-Cat]

This concept is definitely interesting to say the least. I can see this easily becoming very broken. I suggest you take a look at 3D fighters because this clearly draws from it. While those games have sidestepping, not many moves are anti-sidestepping moves and those games are not dominated by them either.

I feel like this would make matches go on even longer than they do already.

 

[lordvaati]

64-5 stock
Melee-4 stock
Brawl-3 stock
...if what Kuma says is true, it could create the dawn of 2 stocks. But tis idea is just too interesting to not think about.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

It reminds me of Fatal Fury.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

It reminds me of Fatal Fury.

Yeah, that's where I went as well.

 

[Airrider]

I can't say much more than that i dislile the idea. It seems very annoying. Like game-destroying-annoying.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I can't say much more than that i dislile the idea. It seems very annoying. Like game-destroying-annoying.

It's basically one platform with one platform behind. It's a simple concept.

 

[Orngeblu]

Don't like it. :I

 

[darth meanie]

I actually have had a similar idea, and I think your diagrams are also pretty spiffy.

My idea was that instead there are 3 Layers, but you spend most of play in the middle one. When players spot dodge or roll though, they shift into one layer or the other, depending on which way they're facing. Most characters would have moves that hit one of the extra layers but not the other, and perhaps one or two moves that hit all layers (Link's grounded Up Special would be a good example, a lot of Down Smashes). Some characters would also have specials that can interact with layers more fully.

Where it would really get interesting would be if there was more varied dodge and roll options, say tilt and smashed spot dodges and rolls, or being able to start up an attack in the end of a roll. You'd have a very versatile defensive option that has more risk and reward attached to it than current dodge mechanics.

Being able to shift rapidly between layers though with no 'home' layer would make attacking guesswork and playing keepaway far too easy. Other fighting games with a sort of permanent sidestep dodge like Tekken or Soul Caliber have the opponent automatically adjust to the new angle for the rest of their attacks; a mechanic like that wouldn't fit your idea and would completely destroy the stage design of smash.

 

[Lucidx]

I'm sorry, but I think this idea is stupid. I would just choose Falco and run away forever and shoot lasers. Camping would be even more difficult to deal with this kind of mechanic. Even with moves that can hit both layers, its not that hard to dodge if you're a good player. Camping and running away is just too strong with this. This breaks the game and is unnecessary.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I'm sorry, but I think this idea is stupid. I would just choose Falco and run away forever and shoot lasers. Camping would be even more difficult to deal with this kind of mechanic. Even with moves that can hit both layers, its not that hard to dodge if you're a good player. Camping and running away is just too strong with this. This breaks the game and is unnecessary.

Solution: Layer Grab them, or angle your attacks.

 

[JOE!]

COunter soultion: falco just moves to the other layer and resumes running and camping. This promotes horizontal circle camping lol

 

[Orngeblu]

Either way this will never happen. :I

 

[BluePikmin11]

Getting f

COunter soultion: falco just moves to the other layer and resumes running and camping. This promotes horizontal circle camping lol

Getting from layer to layer takes time, like the amount of time you dodgeroll.

 

[Lucidx]

Getting f
Getting from layer to layer takes time, like the amount of time you dodgeroll.

That applies to the person getting camped as well. Plus getting hit by lasers, you're going to be moving slower than Falco or whoever is camping with projectiles.

 

[CalumG]

I'm sorry, but I think this idea is stupid. I would just choose Falco and run away forever and shoot lasers. Camping would be even more difficult to deal with this kind of mechanic. Even with moves that can hit both layers, its not that hard to dodge if you're a good player. Camping and running away is just too strong with this. This breaks the game and is unnecessary.

Although I think it's a very interesting idea, I'm inclined to agree with Lucidx here. Aside from adding nothing substantial to the gameplay, this mechanic would require too much fine precision to work. Edge-guarding would become largely irrelevant, the aerial game would become a complete clusterf*ck (characters with good aerial capabilities would have twice the area to stall in), the entire foundation of how stages in Smash are designed would have to be significantly changed, not to mention the aforementioned fact that camping would become the main mechanic of the game if you give the players too much freedom. That's before getting round to the fact that it'd kill off the potential of returning stages, there'd be the issue of people accidentally moving layers when all they wanted to do was dodge or shield, etc. etc. The Stage Builder would no doubt need a complete 100% overhaul and it'd probably be too easy to make game-breaking stages with it (even easier than Brawl), and even 'standard' stages like Battlefield and Final Destination would completely change because of the mechanic.

The biggest issue of all that I can think of is that when the camera pans out beyond a certain point, it'd be immensely difficult to see which layer each player is on (a stage like New Pork City would positively break the mechanic). Anything larger than a 'medium' stage would have to be purged from the game because of this. The same applies to characters the air - with no ground or shadows as a frame of reference, it could be quite difficult to see which layer a character is on if they're in mid-air and the camera is panned to a certain point.

Every single existing mechanic in Smash would have to be overhauled to accomodate for the layer switching ability if they were to actually fully dedicate themselves to it - and I don't personally think the benefits of the system (assuming they can get it to properly work and don't just accidentally break a working formula) would be outweighed by the work that'd have to be put in to it.

At most, I could see them making a stage with something like this as the gimmick. There'd be two layers, a foreground and a background, and the only way to switch between them would be certain areas in the level (e.g. warp pipes).

More than anything I can't see what this feature would add to the game. Some new methods of dodging, maybe, but then again - what's wrong with the way the current dodge system works? All in all, it's an idea that could work for Smash, but I can't see why you'd want it to, since it'd be an awful lot of hassle on the developers part for a very small pay-off on our end. It'd need more extensive playtesting than usual, stages would have to be more fine-tuned than ever just to get the same level of balance we accept as standard, and balancing the characters out would be another issue altogether. I'd prefer that development time to be used to, you know, make the game better, rather than different for the sake of different.

 

[darth meanie]

What comes to mind to me when I think about this is King Dedede's spot dodge. His is arguably the best in the game, not because he's invulnerable for such a long time, but because he steps so far into the z-axis almost nothing can hit him until a few brief frames as he steps back in. I'd like more use of the z-axis this way rather than simple invulnerable dodges, and the ability to hit enemies out of it with wide attacks or specials, but not as a two strict planes for combat. Players should spend 95% of the time in the same plane, except perhaps for certain special moves.

 

[Rosalina suporter]

Its an awesome idea but,Masahiro Sakurai Stated back in August 7, 2012, That

"The game system itself is complete, so we don’t want to make it 3D or introduce complicated controls just for the sake of it," he said. "However, I am thinking of ways we can introduce a slightly different, fun experience all the while keeping the usual frantic game play."

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/08/07/masahiro-sakurai-talks-super-smash-bros-4

 

[final lap]

Double layer would add a lot of needless confusion. I don't see how it would be natural.
That said, the current game needs to be handheld minded and WiiU tablet screen minded. This is the worst time in series history to add a second plane. This is the first handheld SSB game ever, don't squander it on a gimmick. At least wait until SSB5.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

An interesting mechanic, but I feel that it's unnecessary for a 2D fighting title.

 

[Curious Villager]

Well it does sound interesting, but I probably won't be able to have a proper opinion about something like this unless it was actually implemented into the game and we get to try and see how it works in motion etc.

What returning Brawl stages could take advantage of this if they did do something like this?