New Counter Move?

[Master Peach]

Exactly. That's how it would be played in a competitive match. Well Done.

 

[Adi]

When you plan to implement a technique that must be performed in such a short frame time then you, the small amount of lag it takes for the message to be transferred is more then enough time to screw up a counter. There's another reason Sakurai is "moderating" brawl's speed other then to appeal to casuals.

 

[Razgriz]

When you plan to implement a technique that must be performed in such a short frame time then you, the small amount of lag it takes for the message to be transferred is more then enough time to screw up a counter. There's another reason Sakurai is "moderating" brawl's speed other then to appeal to casuals.

Lag time? I've seen people powershield Falco's lasers with decent consistency. If people can do that, then a five frame window is not unreasonable. I can see it being true if you were playing online and there was lag, but if there was even a small amount of lag then competitive play would be completely destroyed anyway, no matter how much Sakurai "moderates". And suppose there was online, and it lagged slightly, and people played anyway. There would still be no reason not to implement this. It would be useless online, but it would still be perfectly applicable at tournaments and such.

 

[Kada]

I like the idea of this. I've heard alot of really stupid ideas about things that could be in Brawl. But I actually really like this idea. This would force people to not be repetitive, kind of like an advanced version of the shield grab. And it would force the level of discipline required to play the game at a competitive level to be greater. It really would add a whole new level of depth to the game. With the correct balancing, it could be a really neat addition to Brawl.

Unfortunately, they can't put every great idea that pops up into Brawl. I love the idea, but I'm not sure of It's chances of getting in are, realistically.

And about the issue of lag, if they're going to have lag, then I'm not sure that this would be what would cause it. But that's a whole other argument. And I'm confident in Nintendo's ability to allow people to play online, from what I've seen from them thus far.

 

[FreakoFreako]

I don't like this idea. It gives an anime image.. And not saying that's bad since I watch like 5 Animes and Anime Fighting Games are one of my fav games (Yeah, I know most of them "Suck".. But I like them)

The reason why I don't like this idea is because it's not a "Omg, I read you like a book biznazzle! Take that ****!!!!" type of thing. It's more like a "lolz your combo is nada!" It doesn't matter if it has 5 Frame Window.. With enough practice, people will get pretty good at it (I'm not saying they'll get it almost every time.. But enough to irritate players). Not to mention the fact that most combos are predictable since there aren't like 53285 different combos for you to perform. So it'll just be down to getting the timing down.

There doesn't need to be a Special Move designed JUST for "Pro" Players to be even better. There wasn't a, "Press L and R at the same time if you're #1 at Smash to win automatically" button and Melee was very competitive. I mean, can you imagine Lvl 9 CPU's spamming the **** out of the move? It'll be more than irritating. Brawl will be the next game reviewed by Angry Nintendo Nerd.

There is a big gap between good and bad players. This seems like a move designed just for good players to laugh at bad players. It's not needed, there are plenty ways of avoiding the opponent/combo's IMO. This would slow down higher level gameplay greatly and be super boring.. Would you like to watch a 10 minute match of two guys countering over and over again? Not to mention the fact getting in the first hit to set up a combo wouldn't be exactly easy either.

 

[Adi]

Lag time? I've seen people powershield Falco's lasers with decent consistency. If people can do that, then a five frame window is not unreasonable. I can see it being true if you were playing online and there was lag, but if there was even a small amount of lag then competitive play would be completely destroyed anyway, no matter how much Sakurai "moderates". And suppose there was online, and it lagged slightly, and people played anyway. There would still be no reason not to implement this. It would be useless online, but it would still be perfectly applicable at tournaments and such.

Calm down buddy, I'm all for this idea . I'm just pointing out flaws which would make it hard to implement this in game. Implementing something like that gives people with high speed internet connections a much much greater advantage over those who don't have as fast a connection.

 

[shadenexus18]

I wouldn't mind if some character's were able to "parry" hits like in Street Fighter 3rd Strike.

 

[Razgriz]

I like the idea of this. I've heard alot of really stupid ideas about things that could be in Brawl. But I actually really like this idea. This would force people to not be repetitive, kind of like an advanced version of the shield grab. And it would force the level of discipline required to play the game at a competitive level to be greater. It really would add a whole new level of depth to the game. With the correct balancing, it could be a really neat addition to Brawl.

Unfortunately, they can't put every great idea that pops up into Brawl. I love the idea, but I'm not sure of It's chances of getting in are, realistically.

And about the issue of lag, if they're going to have lag, then I'm not sure that this would be what would cause it. But that's a whole other argument. And I'm confident in Nintendo's ability to allow people to play online, from what I've seen from them thus far.

Thx. I'm probably going to write Sakurai with this idea. I figure its chances of getting into the game are pretty much nil, but wouldn't it be something if when Brawl came out Sakurai had actualy put it into the game?

I don't like this idea. It gives an anime image.. And not saying that's bad since I watch like 5 Animes and Anime Fighting Games are one of my fav games (Yeah, I know most of them "Suck".. But I like them)

The reason why I don't like this idea is because it's not a "Omg, I read you like a book biznazzle! Take that ****!!!!" type of thing. It's more like a "lolz your combo is nada!" It doesn't matter if it has 5 Frame Window.. With enough practice, people will get pretty good at it (I'm not saying they'll get it almost every time.. But enough to irritate players). Not to mention the fact that most combos are predictable since there aren't like 53285 different combos for you to perform. So it'll just be down to getting the timing down.

There doesn't need to be a Special Move designed JUST for "Pro" Players to be even better. There wasn't a, "Press L and R at the same time if you're #1 at Smash to win automatically" button and Melee was very competitive. I mean, can you imagine Lvl 9 CPU's spamming the **** out of the move? It'll be more than irritating. Brawl will be the next game reviewed by Angry Nintendo Nerd.

There is a big gap between good and bad players. This seems like a move designed just for good players to laugh at bad players. It's not needed, there are plenty ways of avoiding the opponent/combo's IMO. This would slow down higher level gameplay greatly and be super boring.. Would you like to watch a 10 minute match of two guys countering over and over again? Not to mention the fact getting in the first hit to set up a combo wouldn't be exactly easy either.

An anime image? I've played some anime games myself (Naruto, DBZ Budokai, etc.) and I don't remember anything remotely similar to this in the least.

The way this move is set up, if somebody pulls it off, the last thing they are going to do is put on a smug grin and casualy insult you. Trust me. Take edge-teching for instance. All the people that have the mindset you are talking about are incapable of even pulling this off. When people do pull it off, it usualy prompts cheers from the audience and you've just got to respect the guy for being able to do it. Edge-teching however has a 20-frame window of opportunity, and on top of that, you know exactly when you are going to be hit, and on top of that, the only button you even need to worry about pressing is the shield button (and possibly ASDI or SDI depending on the situation). This would have a FIVE frame limit, you would have to predict when you were going to be hit, AND you would have to worry about every single move in the game. This would not get irritating. You would very rarely see it, even among pros. Even if you mastered using it in a given situation, all it takes is for your opponent to delay by a tiny fraction of a second, and you've accomplished nothing. I'd bet money that nobody, even among the smash prodigies, attack with combos that are honed to the 1/12 of a second. Even if they did, then slight differences in your percent damage would mean they were hitting you at different times, and you'd have to recalculate depending on your opponent's unique playing style and your current damage. Sound easy?

Your third paragraph doesn't make a lot of sense, and also indicates that you haven't taken the time to read the thread before posting. Spamming would be dealt with via a 40-frame limit per attempt, similar to teching. Computers would only spam if they were programmed to. Sakurai has been making intelligent decisions thusfar, and I'm sure he's going to make the computer AI less anoying, more effective, and more fun. Plus I don't really care what happens to the computers. Sakurai could make the only NPC in the game a pink G&W whose only attack is the bacon and I wouldn't give a flying ****.

Wow. I'm not even going to dignify that last paragraph with a response.

 

[Razgriz]

Calm down buddy, I'm all for this idea . I'm just pointing out flaws which would make it hard to implement this in game. Implementing something like that gives people with high speed internet connections a much much greater advantage over those who don't have as fast a connection.

My bad I didn't mean to come across as cross. I appreciate people like you actually offering intelligent criticism.

 

[FreakoFreako]

An anime image? I've played some anime games myself (Naruto, DBZ Budokai, etc.) and I don't remember anything remotely similar to this in the least.

The way this move is set up, if somebody pulls it off, the last thing they are going to do is put on a smug grin and casualy insult you. Trust me. Take edge-teching for instance. All the people that have the mindset you are talking about are incapable of even pulling this off. When people do pull it off, it usualy prompts cheers from the audience and you've just got to respect the guy for being able to do it. Edge-teching however has a 20-frame window of opportunity, and on top of that, you know exactly when you are going to be hit, and on top of that, the only button you even need to worry about pressing is the shield button (and possibly ASDI or SDI depending on the situation). This would have a FIVE frame limit, you would have to predict when you were going to be hit, AND you would have to worry about every single move in the game. This would not get irritating. You would very rarely see it, even among pros. Even if you mastered using it in a given situation, all it takes is for your opponent to delay by a tiny fraction of a second, and you've accomplished nothing. I'd bet money that nobody, even among the smash prodigies, attack with combos that are honed to the 1/12 of a second. Even if they did, then slight differences in your percent damage would mean they were hitting you at different times, and you'd have to recalculate depending on your opponent's unique playing style and your current damage. Sound easy?

Your third paragraph doesn't make a lot of sense, and also indicates that you haven't taken the time to read the thread before posting. Spamming would be dealt with via a 40-frame limit per attempt, similar to teching. Computers would only spam if they were programmed to. Sakurai has been making intelligent decisions thusfar, and I'm sure he's going to make the computer AI less anoying, more effective, and more fun. Plus I don't really care what happens to the computers. Sakurai could make the only NPC in the game a pink G&W whose only attack is the bacon and I wouldn't give a flying ****.

Wow. I'm not even going to dignify that last paragraph with a response.

Wow. I'm not even going to dignify your reply with a response.








Just kidding.

1) When I said CPU will spam it, I mean they will have inhuman physic powahz! The timing for Counter would be first frame of the attack, right? Well, it doesn't really matter. A feint on a CPU will not work.. That was my point. Although it was more of a joke. I guess it was a bad joke Anyway, seeing as how we'll most likely be seeing online this time around, I agree, who cares about CPU?

2) I still stand to my opinion that the counter will be used more than what it was hoped to be, later on. You won't be able to use every single move for a combo. In combos in SSB, you know what they are going to do, but you can't exactly get out of it because it's a combo.. Which shows that combos =/= unpredictable. Combo starter can be unpredictable. I'm not saying all combos are predictable, but you definately won't have the luxary of being able to use any of your move.

3) Well, from what you said, it seems like you want it to be near impossible. To the point where it's, "HOLY MOTHER OF CARROT ON A STICK!" If that's what you meant, then what's the point of even having the counter at all?



I don't know, from your reply, it seems like you were.. Uhh. Irritated? Just to tell you, I'm not making fun of you or anything. My points have sarcasm in it not to make fun of you/the idea, it's just a habbit. It's just there to give a few chuckles. I'm rarely caught being serious. Sorry

 

[Razgriz]

Wow. I'm not even going to dignify your reply with a response.








Just kidding.

1) When I said CPU will spam it, I mean they will have inhuman physic powahz! The timing for Counter would be first frame of the attack, right? Well, it doesn't really matter. A feint on a CPU will not work.. That was my point. Although it was more of a joke. I guess it was a bad joke Anyway, seeing as how we'll most likely be seeing online this time around, I agree, who cares about CPU?

2) I still stand to my opinion that the counter will be used more than what it was hoped to be, later on. You won't be able to use every single move for a combo. In combos in SSB, you know what they are going to do, but you can't exactly get out of it because it's a combo.. Which shows that combos =/= unpredictable. Combo starter can be unpredictable. I'm not saying all combos are predictable, but you definately won't have the luxary of being able to use any of your move.

3) Well, from what you said, it seems like you want it to be near impossible. To the point where it's, "HOLY MOTHER OF CARROT ON A STICK!" If that's what you meant, then what's the point of even having the counter at all?



I don't know, from your reply, it seems like you were.. Uhh. Irritated? Just to tell you, I'm not making fun of you or anything. My points have sarcasm in it not to make fun of you/the idea, it's just a habbit. It's just there to give a few chuckles. I'm rarely caught being serious. Sorry

Aight that's cool. Sometimes it can be difficult to discern humor from text.

Some people say this would be done too often, some say it would be too hard. It's all about balance. Maybe the 1 attempt per 40 frames would need to be tweaked. Maybe the window would need to be expanded to 8 frames, or cut down to 3. The theme of this idea is "balance". I do maintain that this would not hurt comboing. It could be used to break combos, but wouldn't break comboing. It's all about balance.

 

[AxemRed]

I forget whether anyone said this yet (including myself ) but you might want to consider just limiting the number of counters you can do in one match. It can be a customizable option- obviously, you wouldn't want a limit of 3 counters if you're playing 20 stock. Or maybe one counter per stock or something?

If this wasn't used, then I'm afraid of certain combos being unusable, like Falcon's throw->knee combos and what not. Yes, I know that's a melee example, but there will probably be equivalent combos in Brawl that can be countered every time if there isn't a limit. That's my concern anyway.

 

[Sjakmachien]

It CAN be cool, if done well. That time-idea is pretty good, but if it's to long, you can have avoiding-scenes too much. But, we'll have to wait and see. If it's gonna happen, I'm going to learn it.

 

[Razgriz]

I forget whether anyone said this yet (including myself ) but you might want to consider just limiting the number of counters you can do in one match. It can be a customizable option- obviously, you wouldn't want a limit of 3 counters if you're playing 20 stock. Or maybe one counter per stock or something?

If this wasn't used, then I'm afraid of certain combos being unusable, like Falcon's throw->knee combos and what not. Yes, I know that's a melee example, but there will probably be equivalent combos in Brawl that can be countered every time if there isn't a limit. That's my concern anyway.

That is a feasible way to balance it out, but there would be disagreements about the settings for tournaments. If it turns out to be to easy, and it messes up things like Falcon's throw to knee combos, then the frame window needs to be constricted. I think that's the best way of dealing with that. I do see the validity of your point though, in that while it would be balanced for most, maybe a select few outstanding individuals would be able to counter like mad, and so imposing a match limit would prevent them from killing combos. But if there are just a couple people out there with the powers of prediciton and superhuman reflexes necessary to pull this off on a regular basis, more power to them. I want them to kick everybody else's ***.

 

[ecstatic]

First off, if what I'm about to say has already been said, I skipped the bulk of the topic...

Anyways, the idea iteself to me seems like an overpowered powersheild. Only CPU's use it consistently, and everyone just gets lucky, and when they do, it's like: pwned! Besides, I believe Sakurai said that he would try to close the Pro/n00b gap a bit.

That Pit + Mario pic on page one gave me an idea, though. What if you spot dodge a move, and the game checks to see if the move would've really hit if you hadn't, then you could press A or something to do a spotdodge counter.

 

[WaterTails]

GOSP! ecstatic had a decent idea? BAH! maybe if it didn't check, but you pressed A and just attacked... then they'd probably have to do that with air-dodges (maybe only like a second of opportunity)