JayWon
Smash Journeyman
Hey guys, I just wanted to hear all of your collective thoughts on the fact on how fast Palutena can stop out of her Dash and her other ground movements. I'm gonna start off with some of my thoughts and hopefully we can develop some discussion/strategy. This post has no intention of any conclusive analysis on what to do but rather to provide the fundamental mechanics of Palutena's ground movement for everyone to see and discuss the potentials.
Every character can Dash and stop their Dash with Shield so the characters don't go into a sliding animation. This, of course, is a way of approach shared by every character. On the extreme side of the spectrum, Luigi in particular has an extremely slippery sliding animation that lasts for a very long time (I can't stand it. Not my playstyle) which is usually bad if unintentional/accidental, but it also has benefits since his Running Up-Smash is a great charged moving hit box.
Palutena, on the other hand, stops out of her Dash almost immediately and does not slide whatsoever. Palutena is not dependent on shield to brake her Dash. That being said, I would like to claim this can be an option to approach as Palutena. All characters can Dash -> Shield brake and then from there they are limited to whatever out of shield options or whatever move after they drop their shield. Palutena essentially has the option to skip dropping her shield. Palutena can Dash -> C-stick to neutral to brake, and then I guess from there she can do one of her best options aka Jab. (D-tilt is also fine as well, 9%, especially since it is her fastest grounded kill move at very high percentage)
Dash straight into Jab:
Note: You can actually hear her heels touch the ground (but not in this vine) which officially indicates her Dash has stopped and she is in her neutral state so you won't do a Dash Attack / Dash Grab. I guess trying to jab out of a Dash as fast as possible without accidentally doing a dash attack is something you can practice.
Compared to the traditional Dash -> shield -> whatever
You might say sure I guess that can be used as a mix up but it's not safe compared to Dash shielding. But to place this in proper perspective, the properties of the 'Dash -> Neutral Brake -> Jab' is pretty much in the middle of
'Dash -> Shield Brake' and 'Dash -> Dash Attack'.
But I get ya. I guess it would be more appropriate to claim 'Dash -> C-stick neutral Brake -> Jab' can be utilized as an option for spacing rather than approaching. You can't space this 'Dash -> Neutral Brake -> Jab' the same way as 'Dash -> Shield' right in front of your opponent. You have to Neutral brake earlier than you would usually do prematurely and have your jab cover you up front. I think mastering this is very important ESPECIALLY against Diddy Kong because Jab will beat thrown banana and Jab beats grabs. Seriously guys! Don't be a ***** and hold shield cuz of an effing banana! At least spam a bunch of single Jabs instead of shielding. I personally think well time Jab is the best way to deal with Sonic's spin dash as well.
So far it seems the meta for Palutena right now is to space with F-airs/D-airs but I don't see why not incorporate Fox's playstyle into Palutena's as well. Fox players tend to walk/run back and forth a lot in neutral since they don't have an aerial they can constantly be using to effectively space themselves. Fox's great dash grab and dash attack complements well with Fox's walk/run back and forth strategy. Palutena, however, has a very punishable Dash Attack / Dash grab so you can't use those moves to effectively emulate Fox's walk/run back and forth style; What you can use is her Dash -> Jab and Dash -> Shield + grab (in general avoid Dash grab at all cost); Dash Attack is fine too but be smart and don't get punished!
One of Palutena's best toolkit in her possession is a passive one: her ground mobility! She is the 10th fastest runner and 14th fastest walker. (37th in horizontal air movement, however) Source. She may not be the fastest runner/walker but combined with the fact that her Dash stops immediately... with the combination with her very strange Dash/Walk properties...
Which leads me to this second part... Her quirky Dash/Walk properties.
Other character subs have been discussing incorporating Foxtrots/Perfect Pivots and we really should start talking about this as well.
For Foxtrot distance can be very controllable. It can go pretty far and very short.
These Foxtrots just have a lot of potential for baiting because you are able to dash towards your opponent but at whatever pace you feel. You are not required to commit to a dash attack but Palutena's Foxtrot animation lasts for a long long time and you can do an extremely delayed dash attack/grab. Though Palutena Dash stops almost immediately, Palutena's Foxtrot has her in initial Dash state for a very long time. You can also F-Smash out of a Foxtrot as well!
I know Little Mac is one of the few characters that goes across stage faster with Foxtrotting than Dashing across. I am not sure about which is faster for Palutena. Someone please time these
Dash across stage:
Foxtrot across stage:
I'm sure you noticed though Palutena can stop out of Dash quickly, she has a really long turning the other way direction. Here is the comparison of turning around without stopping the dash and turning around after a complete stop:
PERFECT PIVOT
Now for the fun part. I'm guessing this will bring the most interest
Perfect Pivot + Jab
Palutena's perfect pivot distance is average at 3.5. (Highest C.Falcon is 6 and Lowest Jigglypuff is 2)
For a character who depends on her Jab tremendously, this appears to actually have real potential!
Since Palutena can stop her Dash quickly, here is an example of Perfect Pivot + Jab after a Dash
rather than a pivot tilt or something.
I wish I have cool videos showing real application of Perfect Pivots but unfortunately I suck too much to use this and am too stupid to know when exactly is the best situation to use this. But lol this is how it looks like guys haha
EDIT*: JK! Here is a video in action.
Swagwalking
Also as many of you already know by now, her really long Walk spin around distance shenanigans... an "advanced technique" called Swagwalking (I don't know what this is called) For some reason Palutena is able to cover a lot of distance when she's turning aroundThis straight up can be used to be unpredictable. Surprisingly moving around stage like this is totally fine because it's ridiculously very mobile. Swagwalking into a nicely spaced D-tilt can be very effective as well!
Try messing around with her ground movements combining everything I mentioned above!
Here's an exercise you can try:
Dash forward
Neutral Stop -> Single Jab x 2 -> Perfect Pivot Jab
Retreat Swagwalking into Perfect Pivot D-tilt then
Short Foxtrot Forward into immediate Long Foxtrot into
Delayed Dash Attack
Retreat Dash into Neutral stop Perfect Pivot Jab
Dash Dance before you Dash forward Neutral Stop and then Dash backwards Neutral stop then
Swagwalk back and forth across stage into a Swagwalk grab
pummel, then proceed the usual Down-throw shenanigans
Note: all the attack's should be aimed in the forward direction. Try to master it til it's smooth and not janky!
__________________
So yeah... I personally have been very active on the ground being very very erratic these days when I'm juggling and edgeguarding. Usually people patiently follow their opponents above trying to land back on stage when they are high in the air getting juggled getting ready for some sort of punish, while the opponent in the air is deciding where to land and getting ready to dodge. but I've been getting good results just by dashing/gliding around + spinning walking shenanigans in an erratic behavior around stage until my opponent is near levels where I can quickly close gaps with Palutena's quick speed and punish out of nowhere. You can tell the opponent has no idea where to land/react and have no idea what to expect.
I guess with all these different ground movements its easy to be unpredictable and bait with very little commitment.
__________________
Part 2 Update:
Lightweight Movement properties!
I don't really have much to suggest, just wanted to show you the comparison for you keep in mind.
Comparison between neutral stop and Shield stop out of Dash in Lightweight
Palutena does not neutral stop as instantaneously compared to her normal Dash. She slides a bit like every other character out of a dash but it still looks like to be on the quicker side than the average neutral dash stop. When Palutena's Lightweight expires and she is flashing and very slow, she neutral stops her slow dash even quicker than a normal neutral dash stop.
Lightweight foxtrot
Lightweight swagwalking
So freaking fast.
Lightweight Perfect Pivot Jabs and occasionally unintentionally doing a Dash Dance Delayed Dash Attack instead (haha)
Super Speed + B-Reversal Anti Momentum
There's been very cool Super Speed discoveries people found out and shared with us, such as conserving momentum by Jump Cancelling and other very cool things, but I haven't stumbled upon B-Reversals after Super Speed among the posts in Palutena's forum.
Again I can't really suggest anything or make any conclusions in terms of practicality, but it is definitely a unique property you should at least know exists.
Super Speed + Auto-reticle B-Reversal Anti Momentum
Before you conclude, "lol this looks cool but it ain't viable" I guess the "potential" of this that is noteworthy, is the fact Palutena is not doing a stationary Auto-reticle. This reminded me of this LONG fight in the Pikachu forum where one person was arguing how you should only always do a Full Hop thunderjolt because you have more mobility, while Short Hop thunderjolt and ground thunder jolt is the worst thing ever since you are left open with no control over movement. And the other person was saying Full Hop thunderjolt sucks cuz you are in the air longer, etc. etc. yada yada.
In this vine, I only focused on hitting the opponent and then doing Autoreticle (The auto-reticles is not a guaranteed hit whatsoever), but please just realize the option to not fully commit to superspeed and simply backing off with a Auto-reticle is there. In other words, I guess this can be seen as another option to cancel your Superspeed... But you are moving backwards while doing an Auto-Reticle. I am no means trying to hype this up and convincing you OMG THIS IS AMAZING.
Super Speed + Explosive Flame B-Reversal Anti Momentum
I can see some strong potential with this, even as a viable approach option. Unlike Super Speed + Auto-reticle B-Reversal where Auto-reticle can attack from behind/anywhere if the target is locked,
Super Speed + Explosive Flame B-Reversal results in an Explosive Flame right in front of or even fully surrounding Palutena!
____
As you can see, Palutena, especially with Lightweight, is very technically demanding and hard to control. I mean this entire post is mainly just talking about how to walk, dash, move around properly. The technicality is even more emphasized merely because of the fact if you unintentionally do a Dash attack or accidentally do a F-tilt (Gods forbid), then you're screwed.
One last thing I would like to share with you guys. I remember the very first time I tried Lightweight, I dismissed it because I thought it was a stupid, ridiculous, troll move cuz Palutena became an uncontrollable nonsense. But little by little, I've put some sense in Lightweight and now I can at least control it a bit. Some of these movement properties mentioned above may seem nonsensical because it is not only unorthodox and unintuitive, but also inhumanly not very easy to do. But at the very least, I hope this post addressed/acknowledged/distinguished the technical mechanics and properties of her controls/movements and hopefully now through this post we can practice not unintentionally doing things we didn't mean to do. One step at a time we'll get there. "There" meaning DBZ. Because Palutena is literally DBZ waiting to turn Super Saiyan 4.
Perhaps one day in the future a Palutena messiah will appear and show pure tight mastery of her control and it'll be divine.
Every character can Dash and stop their Dash with Shield so the characters don't go into a sliding animation. This, of course, is a way of approach shared by every character. On the extreme side of the spectrum, Luigi in particular has an extremely slippery sliding animation that lasts for a very long time (I can't stand it. Not my playstyle) which is usually bad if unintentional/accidental, but it also has benefits since his Running Up-Smash is a great charged moving hit box.
Palutena, on the other hand, stops out of her Dash almost immediately and does not slide whatsoever. Palutena is not dependent on shield to brake her Dash. That being said, I would like to claim this can be an option to approach as Palutena. All characters can Dash -> Shield brake and then from there they are limited to whatever out of shield options or whatever move after they drop their shield. Palutena essentially has the option to skip dropping her shield. Palutena can Dash -> C-stick to neutral to brake, and then I guess from there she can do one of her best options aka Jab. (D-tilt is also fine as well, 9%, especially since it is her fastest grounded kill move at very high percentage)
Dash straight into Jab:
Note: You can actually hear her heels touch the ground (but not in this vine) which officially indicates her Dash has stopped and she is in her neutral state so you won't do a Dash Attack / Dash Grab. I guess trying to jab out of a Dash as fast as possible without accidentally doing a dash attack is something you can practice.
Compared to the traditional Dash -> shield -> whatever
You might say sure I guess that can be used as a mix up but it's not safe compared to Dash shielding. But to place this in proper perspective, the properties of the 'Dash -> Neutral Brake -> Jab' is pretty much in the middle of
'Dash -> Shield Brake' and 'Dash -> Dash Attack'.
But I get ya. I guess it would be more appropriate to claim 'Dash -> C-stick neutral Brake -> Jab' can be utilized as an option for spacing rather than approaching. You can't space this 'Dash -> Neutral Brake -> Jab' the same way as 'Dash -> Shield' right in front of your opponent. You have to Neutral brake earlier than you would usually do prematurely and have your jab cover you up front. I think mastering this is very important ESPECIALLY against Diddy Kong because Jab will beat thrown banana and Jab beats grabs. Seriously guys! Don't be a ***** and hold shield cuz of an effing banana! At least spam a bunch of single Jabs instead of shielding. I personally think well time Jab is the best way to deal with Sonic's spin dash as well.
So far it seems the meta for Palutena right now is to space with F-airs/D-airs but I don't see why not incorporate Fox's playstyle into Palutena's as well. Fox players tend to walk/run back and forth a lot in neutral since they don't have an aerial they can constantly be using to effectively space themselves. Fox's great dash grab and dash attack complements well with Fox's walk/run back and forth strategy. Palutena, however, has a very punishable Dash Attack / Dash grab so you can't use those moves to effectively emulate Fox's walk/run back and forth style; What you can use is her Dash -> Jab and Dash -> Shield + grab (in general avoid Dash grab at all cost); Dash Attack is fine too but be smart and don't get punished!
One of Palutena's best toolkit in her possession is a passive one: her ground mobility! She is the 10th fastest runner and 14th fastest walker. (37th in horizontal air movement, however) Source. She may not be the fastest runner/walker but combined with the fact that her Dash stops immediately... with the combination with her very strange Dash/Walk properties...
Which leads me to this second part... Her quirky Dash/Walk properties.
Other character subs have been discussing incorporating Foxtrots/Perfect Pivots and we really should start talking about this as well.
For Foxtrot distance can be very controllable. It can go pretty far and very short.
These Foxtrots just have a lot of potential for baiting because you are able to dash towards your opponent but at whatever pace you feel. You are not required to commit to a dash attack but Palutena's Foxtrot animation lasts for a long long time and you can do an extremely delayed dash attack/grab. Though Palutena Dash stops almost immediately, Palutena's Foxtrot has her in initial Dash state for a very long time. You can also F-Smash out of a Foxtrot as well!
I know Little Mac is one of the few characters that goes across stage faster with Foxtrotting than Dashing across. I am not sure about which is faster for Palutena. Someone please time these
Dash across stage:
Foxtrot across stage:
I'm sure you noticed though Palutena can stop out of Dash quickly, she has a really long turning the other way direction. Here is the comparison of turning around without stopping the dash and turning around after a complete stop:
PERFECT PIVOT
Now for the fun part. I'm guessing this will bring the most interest
Perfect Pivot + Jab
Palutena's perfect pivot distance is average at 3.5. (Highest C.Falcon is 6 and Lowest Jigglypuff is 2)
For a character who depends on her Jab tremendously, this appears to actually have real potential!
Since Palutena can stop her Dash quickly, here is an example of Perfect Pivot + Jab after a Dash
rather than a pivot tilt or something.
I wish I have cool videos showing real application of Perfect Pivots but unfortunately I suck too much to use this and am too stupid to know when exactly is the best situation to use this. But lol this is how it looks like guys haha
EDIT*: JK! Here is a video in action.
Swagwalking
Also as many of you already know by now, her really long Walk spin around distance shenanigans... an "advanced technique" called Swagwalking (
Try messing around with her ground movements combining everything I mentioned above!
Here's an exercise you can try:
Dash forward
Neutral Stop -> Single Jab x 2 -> Perfect Pivot Jab
Retreat Swagwalking into Perfect Pivot D-tilt then
Short Foxtrot Forward into immediate Long Foxtrot into
Delayed Dash Attack
Retreat Dash into Neutral stop Perfect Pivot Jab
Dash Dance before you Dash forward Neutral Stop and then Dash backwards Neutral stop then
Swagwalk back and forth across stage into a Swagwalk grab
pummel, then proceed the usual Down-throw shenanigans
Note: all the attack's should be aimed in the forward direction. Try to master it til it's smooth and not janky!
__________________
So yeah... I personally have been very active on the ground being very very erratic these days when I'm juggling and edgeguarding. Usually people patiently follow their opponents above trying to land back on stage when they are high in the air getting juggled getting ready for some sort of punish, while the opponent in the air is deciding where to land and getting ready to dodge. but I've been getting good results just by dashing/gliding around + spinning walking shenanigans in an erratic behavior around stage until my opponent is near levels where I can quickly close gaps with Palutena's quick speed and punish out of nowhere. You can tell the opponent has no idea where to land/react and have no idea what to expect.
I guess with all these different ground movements its easy to be unpredictable and bait with very little commitment.
__________________
Part 2 Update:
Lightweight Movement properties!
I don't really have much to suggest, just wanted to show you the comparison for you keep in mind.
Comparison between neutral stop and Shield stop out of Dash in Lightweight
Palutena does not neutral stop as instantaneously compared to her normal Dash. She slides a bit like every other character out of a dash but it still looks like to be on the quicker side than the average neutral dash stop. When Palutena's Lightweight expires and she is flashing and very slow, she neutral stops her slow dash even quicker than a normal neutral dash stop.
Lightweight foxtrot
Lightweight swagwalking
So freaking fast.
Lightweight Perfect Pivot Jabs and occasionally unintentionally doing a Dash Dance Delayed Dash Attack instead (haha)
Super Speed + B-Reversal Anti Momentum
There's been very cool Super Speed discoveries people found out and shared with us, such as conserving momentum by Jump Cancelling and other very cool things, but I haven't stumbled upon B-Reversals after Super Speed among the posts in Palutena's forum.
Again I can't really suggest anything or make any conclusions in terms of practicality, but it is definitely a unique property you should at least know exists.
Super Speed + Auto-reticle B-Reversal Anti Momentum
Before you conclude, "lol this looks cool but it ain't viable" I guess the "potential" of this that is noteworthy, is the fact Palutena is not doing a stationary Auto-reticle. This reminded me of this LONG fight in the Pikachu forum where one person was arguing how you should only always do a Full Hop thunderjolt because you have more mobility, while Short Hop thunderjolt and ground thunder jolt is the worst thing ever since you are left open with no control over movement. And the other person was saying Full Hop thunderjolt sucks cuz you are in the air longer, etc. etc. yada yada.
In this vine, I only focused on hitting the opponent and then doing Autoreticle (The auto-reticles is not a guaranteed hit whatsoever), but please just realize the option to not fully commit to superspeed and simply backing off with a Auto-reticle is there. In other words, I guess this can be seen as another option to cancel your Superspeed... But you are moving backwards while doing an Auto-Reticle. I am no means trying to hype this up and convincing you OMG THIS IS AMAZING.
Super Speed + Explosive Flame B-Reversal Anti Momentum
I can see some strong potential with this, even as a viable approach option. Unlike Super Speed + Auto-reticle B-Reversal where Auto-reticle can attack from behind/anywhere if the target is locked,
Super Speed + Explosive Flame B-Reversal results in an Explosive Flame right in front of or even fully surrounding Palutena!
____
As you can see, Palutena, especially with Lightweight, is very technically demanding and hard to control. I mean this entire post is mainly just talking about how to walk, dash, move around properly. The technicality is even more emphasized merely because of the fact if you unintentionally do a Dash attack or accidentally do a F-tilt (Gods forbid), then you're screwed.
One last thing I would like to share with you guys. I remember the very first time I tried Lightweight, I dismissed it because I thought it was a stupid, ridiculous, troll move cuz Palutena became an uncontrollable nonsense. But little by little, I've put some sense in Lightweight and now I can at least control it a bit. Some of these movement properties mentioned above may seem nonsensical because it is not only unorthodox and unintuitive, but also inhumanly not very easy to do. But at the very least, I hope this post addressed/acknowledged/distinguished the technical mechanics and properties of her controls/movements and hopefully now through this post we can practice not unintentionally doing things we didn't mean to do. One step at a time we'll get there. "There" meaning DBZ. Because Palutena is literally DBZ waiting to turn Super Saiyan 4.
Perhaps one day in the future a Palutena messiah will appear and show pure tight mastery of her control and it'll be divine.
Last edited:
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