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Neutral game advice - Being cornered

PlamZ

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
72
In my long quest to getting better at the neutral game, I would like to know what kind of good options I should keep in mind when getting cornered. I have the bad habit to try to waveland toward the stage on the platform to re-gain center stage, which gets punished quite fast no matter what kind of hitbox I throw doing so.

Any good tips?

Edit : Also, general tips on avoiding getting cornered? I often see myself trapped in my own dash-dance when the opponent slowly tries to get stage control using safe aerials and projectiles.
 
Last edited:

Link24a

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
481
ok, you should never be "trapped" in a dash dance as when youre in a dash dance thats when you have the most options open.

i mean, defensively, you can shield, jump (either as an escape or to space aerials), wavedash, or just run away.
 

PlamZ

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
72
ok, you should never be "trapped" in a dash dance as when youre in a dash dance thats when you have the most options open.

i mean, defensively, you can shield, jump (either as an escape or to space aerials), wavedash, or just run away.

I played very good players (about 5 of Top 100) and I felt like they were easily able to make me trapped in my own dash dance. Shielding often resulted in a fast grab and jumping... Everyone knows Marth is very bad when the enemy is beneath him. You can definitly get cornered even when dash-dancing.
 

Link24a

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
481
I played very good players (about 5 of Top 100) and I felt like they were easily able to make me trapped in my own dash dance.
tbh thats because theyre top 100. i honestly feel safest within a dash dance

Shielding often resulted in a fast grab and jumping... Everyone knows Marth is very bad when the enemy is beneath him. You can definitly get cornered even when dash-dancing.
you saying youre dash dancing on platforms?
 

PlamZ

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
72
tbh thats because theyre top 100. i honestly feel safest within a dash dance


you saying youre dash dancing on platforms?
No. I said that Jumping is often a bad option when cornered, as it triggers a fast reaction of your enemy. As for "That's because they're top 100", this is bull-crap. Nobody becomes a top 100 and suddenly reach a god tier. The top 100 have strategies that can be beaten, everyone has.

My dash dancing is great, I rarely flub it and can easily react to most moves thrown, but sometime, when enemies get aggressive while staying safe (Ex : Lasers, other Marth) you can slowly lose the control of the stage if they pressure you enough, resulting in yourself getting cornered near the ledge of the stage. I find it difficult to regain the position loss one this situation happens.
 

blargh257

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 20, 2014
Messages
109
Location
Norcal
NNID
blargh257
How about, "The top 100 have seen this situation a lot and so know how best to stuff it?"
If I feel cornered I like to dtilt if I can because it's a good poke and will always get the opponent away from me if it does land.
 

PlamZ

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
72
How about, "The top 100 have seen this situation a lot and so know how best to stuff it?"
If I feel cornered I like to dtilt if I can because it's a good poke and will always get the opponent away from me if it does land.
Yeah, that is definitly better.

Like I said, they're not good because they're top 100, they're top 100 because they're good. All of them are humans with flaws and if you can't see yourself on their level, you will not reach it.

Thanks for the answer. Yeah down tilt is great, it clearly is one of the move I should be using more often.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,345
In my long quest to getting better at the neutral game, I would like to know what kind of good options I should keep in mind when getting cornered. I have the bad habit to try to waveland toward the stage on the platform to re-gain center stage, which gets punished quite fast no matter what kind of hitbox I throw doing so.

Any good tips?

Edit : Also, general tips on avoiding getting cornered? I often see myself trapped in my own dash-dance when the opponent slowly tries to get stage control using safe aerials and projectiles.
I will address the last bit first. You are being too passive with your dash dancing. DD'ing without the threat of retaliation is simply the strategy of waiting for your opponent to make a mistake. What ends up happening is you get threatened by their character instead and you end up DD'ing yourself closer to the ledge and out of room.

Most projectiles in this game are awful except for Falco. Sheik's needles do nothing other than stopping you from running, but she does not get any guaranteed follow-up from it or tight window to react too (unless needles used in the air to avoid her ending lag). Therefore, you can often times shield into a projectile and wavedash back without giving up really any stage. Or you can wavedash forward depending upon their lag.
 

PlamZ

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
72
I will address the last bit first. You are being too passive with your dash dancing. DD'ing without the threat of retaliation is simply the strategy of waiting for your opponent to make a mistake. What ends up happening is you get threatened by their character instead and you end up DD'ing yourself closer to the ledge and out of room.

Most projectiles in this game are awful except for Falco. Sheik's needles do nothing other than stopping you from running, but she does not get any guaranteed follow-up from it or tight window to react too (unless needles used in the air to avoid her ending lag). Therefore, you can often times shield into a projectile and wavedash back without giving up really any stage. Or you can wavedash forward depending upon their lag.
Great!

Any tips on being more agressive / less passive?
 

blargh257

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 20, 2014
Messages
109
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blargh257
Great!

Any tips on being more agressive / less passive?
Try to take openings as you see them as well as bait out actions. As was said, if you don't go in sometimes, dashdancing is ineffective.
 

PlamZ

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
72
Try to take openings as you see them as well as bait out actions. As was said, if you don't go in sometimes, dashdancing is ineffective.
Thing is, sometime people just won't take the bait. They know I'm looking for an opening so they just try to do everything as safely as possible, making me unable to reach them on time.
 

blargh257

Smash Apprentice
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May 20, 2014
Messages
109
Location
Norcal
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blargh257
Thing is, sometime people just won't take the bait. They know I'm looking for an opening so they just try to do everything as safely as possible, making me unable to reach them on time.
You're Marth and you have the sword. Use the range to be as safe as you can while still threatening. Things like fair and dtilt can do that.
 

PlamZ

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
72
You're Marth and you have the sword. Use the range to be as safe as you can while still threatening. Things like fair and dtilt can do that.
I really should invest more time in pseudo-pivot (DD Shield stop) so that my fair can come out as fast as possible during DD.
 
Joined
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Great!

Any tips on being more agressive / less passive?
I guess will address this and the rest of your previous post to the best of my understanding.

Most of Marth's moveset is pretty punishable or lacks the ability to generate strong situations. Hitting someone with Ftilt at like 50% can still often times get you punished. Using Aerials is often times fairly punishable as well. When you short hop, you commit very heavily. Where ever you end up moving to in your short hop people will know exactly where you will end up landing. If its a character like Sheik, Fox, Falco, or Falcon they can keep a very tight spacing around you to avoid any aerial you might throw out and still be quick enough to punish your ending lag. If you 2nd jump away this is still bad because you completely give up all stage control as the void where you were on the ground is now gone. It can be filled up with the other character.

So, the point is that you can reduce your ability of getting put into bad situations by picking options which will not leave you vulnerable. Some of the best moves in Marth's arsenal are literally grab and Dtilt. Grab avoids any pitfalls such as not enough knockback at low percent, risk of crouch canceling, and hitting shield. It would be pretty good to use Grab to start all of Marth's punishes with because you can tech chase a person or hit them in the air or punish landing lag of wherever they land.

The question next to ask is how do you set this up? How can you try to get situations where you get grabs. Dash Dancing, holding some amount of stage, your opponents position, and using Dtilt. The essence of DD'ing as far as I know is to be able to mask what you will do next. Its hard to react too. On any dash forward you might grab or you might dash back and avoid the attack targeted at you. However, this loses any power when you lose stage to use the dash back or fail to act out of dash forwards on many attempts.

Thus, to avoid being in a bad spot you should avoid losing ground and press forward to gain more ground. Dtilt is a very good move to attempt to regain some amount of ground. Its an area where your opponent cannot come here during the time period the move is out. If successful to land punishing even when CC'd at tipper range is difficult for most anyone depending upon what you do after Dtilt. At the very least, it establishes for a brief period this space belongs to Marth. Thus, you gain some stage. You might lose it still depending upon what happens afterwards, but that is effectively what Dtilt does.

In combination with the threat of DD back, dash forward grab, or dash forward Dtilt you can pretty much choose to beat out any option a person takes and attempt to take space from said person. The closer a person gets the ledge the less they have to work with. Yet, you have all this stage to retreat too to cover their break forward. If a person is being really safe they often times retreat. During a retreat you can take back space they gave up. This set-ups up for the next interaction. Eventually, something happens which breaks this neutral game. They go into shield, they attempt to attack forward (or inplace), go to the platform. At which point, the game shifts gears and that is a different topic.

There are more nuances to other topics such as projectiles and different characters, but this is what I believe to be the way Marth wants to approach neutral in general. Some characters like Peach give you more reason and sometimes more options to do certain things.

To address the idea of being more aggressive and less passive more directly you simply try to take any space they give up the moment it happens. This is done by the actions of putting an attack out there (space/time your Dtilt/Grab well when you do swing). Or, you simply capitalizing on any actions such as say a full hop they make or their own retreating backwards and simply move into the space they gave up if they dash away.

When you are in a bad spot. You simply have to accept you might not be able to do anything about it. If you are on the ledge that is a bad spot. The best you can do is try to minimize worst actions and work with the few plausible options you can. If you run out of stage you want to get it back. Trying at attack someone directly, rushing past them, get into the stage and roll inwards. These are all attempts to take some more stage back that while they can fail you might wiggle out of your situation.
 

PlamZ

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
72
I guess will address this and the rest of your previous post to the best of my understanding.

Most of Marth's moveset is pretty punishable or lacks the ability to generate strong situations. Hitting someone with Ftilt at like 50% can still often times get you punished. Using Aerials is often times fairly punishable as well. When you short hop, you commit very heavily. Where ever you end up moving to in your short hop people will know exactly where you will end up landing. If its a character like Sheik, Fox, Falco, or Falcon they can keep a very tight spacing around you to avoid any aerial you might throw out and still be quick enough to punish your ending lag. If you 2nd jump away this is still bad because you completely give up all stage control as the void where you were on the ground is now gone. It can be filled up with the other character.

So, the point is that you can reduce your ability of getting put into bad situations by picking options which will not leave you vulnerable. Some of the best moves in Marth's arsenal are literally grab and Dtilt. Grab avoids any pitfalls such as not enough knockback at low percent, risk of crouch canceling, and hitting shield. It would be pretty good to use Grab to start all of Marth's punishes with because you can tech chase a person or hit them in the air or punish landing lag of wherever they land.

The question next to ask is how do you set this up? How can you try to get situations where you get grabs. Dash Dancing, holding some amount of stage, your opponents position, and using Dtilt. The essence of DD'ing as far as I know is to be able to mask what you will do next. Its hard to react too. On any dash forward you might grab or you might dash back and avoid the attack targeted at you. However, this loses any power when you lose stage to use the dash back or fail to act out of dash forwards on many attempts.

Thus, to avoid being in a bad spot you should avoid losing ground and press forward to gain more ground. Dtilt is a very good move to attempt to regain some amount of ground. Its an area where your opponent cannot come here during the time period the move is out. If successful to land punishing even when CC'd at tipper range is difficult for most anyone depending upon what you do after Dtilt. At the very least, it establishes for a brief period this space belongs to Marth. Thus, you gain some stage. You might lose it still depending upon what happens afterwards, but that is effectively what Dtilt does.

In combination with the threat of DD back, dash forward grab, or dash forward Dtilt you can pretty much choose to beat out any option a person takes and attempt to take space from said person. The closer a person gets the ledge the less they have to work with. Yet, you have all this stage to retreat too to cover their break forward. If a person is being really safe they often times retreat. During a retreat you can take back space they gave up. This set-ups up for the next interaction. Eventually, something happens which breaks this neutral game. They go into shield, they attempt to attack forward (or inplace), go to the platform. At which point, the game shifts gears and that is a different topic.

There are more nuances to other topics such as projectiles and different characters, but this is what I believe to be the way Marth wants to approach neutral in general. Some characters like Peach give you more reason and sometimes more options to do certain things.

To address the idea of being more aggressive and less passive more directly you simply try to take any space they give up the moment it happens. This is done by the actions of putting an attack out there (space/time your Dtilt/Grab well when you do swing). Or, you simply capitalizing on any actions such as say a full hop they make or their own retreating backwards and simply move into the space they gave up if they dash away.

When you are in a bad spot. You simply have to accept you might not be able to do anything about it. If you are on the ledge that is a bad spot. The best you can do is try to minimize worst actions and work with the few plausible options you can. If you run out of stage you want to get it back. Trying at attack someone directly, rushing past them, get into the stage and roll inwards. These are all attempts to take some more stage back that while they can fail you might wiggle out of your situation.

Great answer! Another Follow-up question.

What are the best option out of IASA Dtilt? I often use WD Back or simple dash back. Are there any other good situation I should try out?
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
Great answer! Another Follow-up question.

What are the best option out of IASA Dtilt? I often use WD Back or simple dash back. Are there any other good situation I should try out?
(I don't have too much experience in this area), but I would guess that it's really situational. If it was a low % dtilt that made contact, I'd say that WD back is a good option provided you have control of enough of the stage. At lower %s, you'll be hard-pressed to find a good follow up. At slightly higher %s, probably around 30, I would say start moving in with SHFFL fairs as a follow up, maybe into grab depending on how they DI, or you could try going straight into JC grab. It'd probably be really tough to respond to that kind of a situation. Just make sure that you don't give them room to breathe if you hit them with a move with enough hitstun to allow a follow up. Comboing and getting your foe off of the edge, regardless of % imo, are two of the most important things to think about (besides the obvious don't get hit.)
 
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