Ness vs. Charizard help?

[HM04]

I played against (and got wrecked by) a Charizard in a local tourney a few weeks ago and I think I'll be seeing him at my next tournament. The way he plays Charizard is different than most of the others I've played and he plays super lame. He pretty much only d-throw tech chases and nairs most of my approaches. The only stage I was able to take from him was WarioWare because of how early I could kill with backthrow. When I played this guy in friendlies he played COMPLETELY different. No tech chases at all and was playing a really standard Charizard. It's like he just kept his whole game hidden, so I don't think I'll get to practice against his real Charizard unless it's in Grand Finals again. Anyway can you suggest any methods of dealing with a really lame playing Charizard?

TLDR: I played vs lame charizard (tech chase and nair spam) and I'd like some tips for the match up

 

[Boiko]

If Nair is beating your approaches, which is should because it's ridiculous, just don't approach. When i played John Number's Zard, he had a really hard time because I just kept my distance with PKF and would punish when he got hit or whiffed a nair. As for tech chasing, just mix it up, I find immediate tech in place > spot dodge > nair to work well against tech chasers, may just be me though.

 

[SpaceJello]

Check out my vid in the ness video thread, it's the seconed match. I was literally dealing with the same problem you had and there's not an easy response to it. Check out what I did and it should help

 

[choknater]

pk fire keep away against big bodies all dai baby

 

[Zero May Cry]

What choknater said. Charizard has a huge hurtbox so just space him out with PK fire and force him to approach. Space out the nair as well.

 

[Psi Sig]

I also have same problem, except the Zard I play is my training buddy, so pk fire is pretty useless, he's good very good at getting out before I can follow, and his combo and tech-chase game is quite nasty. I've honestly been going Shiek for Zard. Any advice for when pk fire doesn't help?

 

[Kokomaniac]

If 1 pk fire doesn't do the job, 2 will

I'll read people's reactions out of pk fire if I know they'll sdi with another pk fire basically

 

[HM04]

Sightroc, I just picked up Shiek as well as a back up plan in case I really just can't manage with PKFire spam. I have noticed that if Charizard down throws you when you're right on the very edge you'll be sent off stage and can try to recover but on certain maps it doesn't really help as he can just go and gimp you or just wait for you to recover(can't sweet spot on something like warioware with that angle)

 

[twinx]

DJC nairs and bairs are good. you can just dash dance,bait the nair,then go for a grab and combo off of it.

 

[TerraScythe]

If he likes to short-hop nair a lot, you could try a retreating wavedash into an up-angled fsmash.

 

[Hanuman]

Required reading:

supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Sandbagging

supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Cheap

Advice:

Sounds like he is repetitive, so just get reads and play better.

Google "Ness vs Charizard PM" and go watch.

Post your own stream and ask for advice on your style, spacing, approach, pressure and anti-pressure options.

 

[HM04]

@ Hanuman Required Reading? Also I've watched plenty of the Ness V Charizard match ups and I play other Charizard players who take games off me but it's never such a stomp. Most Charizards don't d-throw tech chase before - to - and after 90%
Will keep working at it thanks for the comment.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

PK Fire is your only friend in this MU. Abuse it. Like, literally make it 75% of your neutral game at the very least.

 

[choknater]

yeah that move alone literally makes the big body matchups that much harder for them. hitting sheiks and sonics with pkf is hard, but it's possible to be accurate... but it's a billion times easier to hit the big bodies. and to hit them with several.

honestly i don't even try to grab or hit big bodies out of pkf anymore. i just try to hit them with as many as possible.

 

[HM04]

not to derail my own thread but any tips for dealing with people saying using PKF is stale playstyle?
"Wow you really like PKFire... you shouldn't strive to use it. You shouldn't need it" - Some upset guy

 

[Kokomaniac]

Say nothing? It's a tool ness was given to make up for shortcomings, if you need to use it overmuch to win something, that's not your fault, it's the game's fault

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Start talking about how bad Ness is in the most facetious and annoying tone possible.

"Nah dude, you can SDI out or just buffer a roll. PK Fire is useless."
"Oh jeez, my recovery's only invulnerable for like 6 frames. It doesn't go far enough either. Ness' recovery is so bad."
"Dang, did you see that? I had to edge hog you to get the kill after that dair. That move is balls, it's got like five whole frames of start up, and it doesn't even spike. "
"Aw man, you crouch cancelled my fair as Donkey Kong? Man, that move needs a buff. I can't even get a guaranteed grab after 120%"

 

[choknater]

i would just shrug and say "it's a great move"