Ness' state: weakened? buffed? or the same?

[Ademisk]

Most are. It was 70% an engine change. The reason Melee Ness was bad is because he was comboed so **** easily and that it was difficult to combo people with him. His moves were actually pretty good, but you had to do like 3-4X the amount of damage other characters had to do in order to win.

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

Not... really. He had a lot of kill moves, but too much start up and ending lag so he was easier to punish than almost any character. That's how I saw it.

 

[Ademisk]

He actually had very little start up and ending lag for his moves. He only had 2 real kill moves that were used frequently, his approach was good with his fair, but required a little finnese to get perfect. Pretty much every single part of Ness was more than good, but he was such a floaty little ***** that he got comboed incredibly easy by the likes of Fox, Falco, Marth, and Shiek, and his combos against them were weak at best. Marth's range is incredibly hard to overcome, and even if you do, he has combo which are just beastly against Ness. Fox and Falco just have uairs and shines and dairs, and such, which used against Ness, can get about 40-80% damage on him with minimal chance of escape through DI. Sheik has priority out the ***, so it's difficult to approach her with Ness, and she can chaingrab him at early percents, and then combo her killing aerials after grabs in the later percents.

And of course the only combo Ness has his uthrow uthrow uair uthrow uair uair uair uair, against Fox and Falco, which is, by itself, rather difficult to master.

This coupled with a few other factors are what made Ness bottom tier.

 

[Deleted member]

ok. Ademisk you do have a good point. but come on, they changed what made me a fan in the first place. I ( i used to stick up for Ness). And yes I did see the vids, but it is just animation. Ness cant really even do that. It was cool though.

The first Ness in N64 took time to master, and once you mastered his moves he was a powerhouse. I liked that his character was a challenge to master, and once you did master his moveset you were rewarded with pawnage...lol. but I tried the same thing with Melee Ness, he was just too quirky, and simply was useless against certain characters in Melee (in my my opinion, im sure it is different for everyone).

Also I left out that I never really got used to Melee on Gamecube, the controls weren't as crisp as on N64. How come you can stand next to someone in Melee and the punch them with Ness and it still misses? Maybe brawl will be the savior Ness needs...

I wont completely give up on Ness. But where are his new moves???

Ness
2008-????

I agree with you. I still play N64 Smash I don't like Melee and I'm hoping Brawl is better. Ness sucked in Melee.

 

[Ademisk]

Ness was extremely fun in Melee, to give up on him just because of a nerfed moveset is the height of betrayal. For shame.

 

[Deleted member]

Ness was extremely fun in Melee, to give up on him just because of a nerfed moveset is the height of betrayal. For shame.

I didn't give up on Ness I gave up on Melee. I didn't like the game period. My friends and I play the N64 version daily and I dominate them with Ness.

 

[Ademisk]

Hey, whatever floats your boat, Melee was crazy fun. 6 years, what kind of lifespan is that?

 

[Voyager]

The dojo update for Ness makes it seem like Lucas is just... a better Ness.

I hope not, and i guess there's no way to tell yet.

 

[Ademisk]

Despite what things sound like, the better character will be the one the players make better.

 

[Levitas]

Yeah, but the players will be better at making the better character better, thus the better character will end up better.

So, that's not entirely true. And Ness will have some advantages, so whether or not Ness is better or vice versa will rely simply on which one turns out to actually be better.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

From what it seems in the Ness update, Ness's Up-B is almost strictly worse than Lucas'. Lucas also seems to have better smash attacks. It's curious to wonder if Lucas is just a better version of Ness?

I'm not a Ness player. My roommate, however, uses Ness as a secondary now, main a long time ago. And he was extremely excited for Ness when he heard he was in Brawl. However, it's very disappointing at seeing, as far as we know, Lucas being better than Ness.

I guess time will tell.

 

[Chepe]

Really I think Sakurai screwed up with their Up B properties. If it was me, Ness would have the Up B that passes through enemies. I mean, Lucas already has the rope snake tether, but getting a PK Thunder that will always be guaranteed to hit him?

I hope that speed buff to Ness' PK Thunder is enough so that you can hit yourself before someone just comes out and touches it...

 

[§leepy God]

I hope that speed buff to Ness' PK Thunder is enough so that you can hit yourself before someone just comes out and touches it...

I'm hoping that to, it seems like it's almost never used by most people though, I use it for the best edge gard possable.

 

[Arawanach]

you know... when I was playing melee... I did see when I started to main young Link that he's not very powerfull... but after using him a while... i figured out... I didn't have to wory about he's strengt... because he was a very fast character... so I started to figure out a way to avoid hits and hit people a lot... so yes, young Link seamed like a weak character because he was just a kid, but if you train hard enough, you can make the character you like most to controll become the best character ever.

And besides... there's no character that's better then any other character... there's just some people who are better with different characters... and by the way... belive it or not, but I know someone who was actually good at playing with Jigglypuff...

I agree that Ness was much more powerfull in the N64 version, but so was C. Falcon to... I think it was almost impossible to not be good when playing as him. Ness and C. Falcon was like super characters. They were just so overpowerfull. In melee... they were weakened... maybe to make characters mostly exact as good as each other... with noone more powerfull then any other... with Ness... well, they didn't have any power type for him...

It seams like Ness and Lucas is kind of similiar to Mario and Luigi...

 

[Ademisk]

Jigglypuff should be top tier in Melee. Captain Falcon wasn't too overpowered in 64, though Pikachu was.

There are characters that are better than other characters, don't lie to yourself.

And yes, Ness and Lucas are clones. Mario and Luigi are also clones. Fox, Falco, and Wolf are clones. Captain Falcon and Ganondorf, Link and Toon Link too.

 

[clayfighter0]

Ya im pretty sure ness is alot stronger then lucas as they stated before the way me and my friends interupt it as that Ness is going to be more defensive and slow but can hit extremly hard for heavy damage. Where as Lucas is going to be more offensive with quick attacks and hits for small amounts of damage but has good combos!!!!

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Lucas is not as safe as Ness. His specials and attacks are more dynamic but he has quite a few blind spots due to a majority of his KO moves being very slow and situational. With his improved yo-yos and faster B moves, Ness will be a more solid and less risky character all round. Ness also has a better djc, so he will certainly be faster and have more mobility.

Lucas is just awesome, btw. His PK thunder is the coolest move EVER.

Ness's PK fire is still superior now that it's faster.

Blow for blow, Lucas is actually stronger in terms of damage. His PK Thunder can easily rack up 13% with one simple combo since it can hit multuple times.

 

[Ademisk]

****it Nessbounder, stop playing Brawl before me.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I haven't played Brawl, I'm just good at weedling information out of people who have.

Being Australian makes it so that I won't be playing Brawl for a long time, aargh.

And BTW: Fox and Falco are clones. Wolf is NOT a clone. BOY IS HE NOT A CLONE...0_o Every single one of his attacks except for his B moves and Final smash are totally original and look incredibly cool, especially his throws.

And even then, Wolf has 5 B moves! His up B becomes a totally new attack if he does it at ground level. Instead of blasting off, he does this insane Falcon Kick that covers half the screen!

 

[Conformal_Invariance]

Aussie, huh?

Lame.

We appreciate the Ness info though, thanks.

 

[Ademisk]

Hey, Nessbounder is cool, aussie or not.


Good to see you posting again, it's been a while.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I think he meant it was lame that I won't be getting brawl soon because I'm Aussie (or at least I hope so...)

I'm considering importing a US version of Brawl and ehe..."upgrading" my Wii to bypass the region lock. *shifty look*

 

[Pokebrawl]

Ness's PK Thunder seems more for attacking abilities and Lucas's more for recovery.

I love the little things about the two that make them different; their voices, the way they perform their PKs, and the all around difference-with an air of similarity moves.

 

[Conformal_Invariance]

Ness's PK Thunder seems more for attacking abilities and Lucas's more for recovery.

I love the little things about the two that make them different; their voices, the way they perform their PKs, and the all around difference-with an air of similarity moves.

Yes indeed.

I prefer the Ness voice, but I just love some of Lucas' attack motions.

They're both amazing.

I think he meant it was lame that I won't be getting brawl soon because I'm Aussie (or at least I hope so...)

I'm considering importing a US version of Brawl and ehe..."upgrading" my Wii to bypass the region lock. *shifty look*

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Australia has it bad enough.

And that's not a bad idea... save yourself painful waiting times in the process!

Yo, Ademisk. Nice topic you got, too. I'm sure it'll evolve into the definitive Ness topic for everyone's Brawl needs!

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Actually, Lucas's PK thunder is better for attacking. The head of the move knocks the opponent away, but just enough that you can hit them again. It seems easy to hit(juggle!) up to 3 times with his PK thunder for about 13-16%!

The good thing about Ness's attack is that it's faster and the hit is harder, so it's better for throwing out during aerial juggles. Ness can shock with PK Thunder and then go for an air pressure, wheras Lucas would have to wait until his attack dies out by itself.

Also: PK Flash has a much faster startup time! We can finally use an uncharged PK flash to cover Ness's head! It activates faster than Lucas's up smash.

 

[Ademisk]

I was gonna say what Nessbounder said. It's pretty obvious. Ness's PK Thunder...is...better for n00bs. It does single shot damage and doesn't require much thought to use, but it's easily blocked, or dodge, and punished.

Do you know if it has the invincibility frames? They were always sexy.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

No, I don't know if PKthunder2 still has its ultra-priority frames, but it's safe to assume they're still there.

Lucas's PKthunder2 is not so much of a KO move, btw.

 

[Ademisk]

I figured. But it seems like it'd be good at racking damage. Also the fact that it goes through opponent could be interesting. Not sure how, but I'm sure someone will find something about it.

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

Depending on how the afterlag is for Lucas' PK Thunder, I could see it being a good setup if you ended the move deliberately by running it into a platform. Maybe. The multiple hit PKT2 thing seems a bit.. bad. Ness' puts a lot of distance between you and the opponent, but Lucas' keeps them close, so it seems like you'll get hit right off the bat for using it.

 

[Levitas]

It seems that PKT2 is gonna be *gasp* a recovery move for lucas. Who saw that coming?

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Depending on how the afterlag is for Lucas' PK Thunder, I could see it being a good setup if you ended the move deliberately by running it into a platform. Maybe. The multiple hit PKT2 thing seems a bit.. bad. Ness' puts a lot of distance between you and the opponent, but Lucas' keeps them close, so it seems like you'll get hit right off the bat for using it.

Not really. The final hit still has knockback, it's just not the same kind of explosive KO power that Ness has with his PKthunder2 up close.

 

[hyperiondragon]

Despite what things sound like, the better character will be the one the players make better.

This is true, but it took an insane amount of skill to be really really good with Ness in Melee, most of the general public (like me) did not want to put in the hours to make a poor character good. But it turned out two outcomes Ness became sort of an elite character where there were only a few people that are really good with him in Melee, and on the bad side lots of people who were bad with Ness or 2nd or 3rd mained him.

 

[Kronzo]

I'm happy ness made it. Lucas sucks, he's a wimp in SSE

 

[Levitas]

Hyperiondragon, in an interesting coincidence that may or may not have anything to do with the insane amount of skill it took to be good with ness, but ness kinda sucked. I mean the whole bottom tier thing.

I still used him (even in tournaments) but that's more of a stubborness thing.

 

[Arawanach]

Jigglypuff should be top tier in Melee. Captain Falcon wasn't too overpowered in 64, though Pikachu was.

There are characters that are better than other characters, don't lie to yourself.

And yes, Ness and Lucas are clones. Mario and Luigi are also clones. Fox, Falco, and Wolf are clones. Captain Falcon and Ganondorf, Link and Toon Link too.

Well... C. Falcon was a character that players that wasn't good in smash could use to be kind of good... and Ness was very powerfull there...

And no, Ness and Lucas isn't clones... they're similiar, but not clones... like Mario and Luigi... and by the way... if you have ever played wind waker... you will actually see that Link in wind waker has a complete different set of atacks then Link from Twilight Princess...

you see... if you have seen he's spinn atack, you can notice a huge difference... and toon Link could like use the deku leaf that he's using in wind waker... that would make him a totally different character... and, I gues he would use grapling hook instead of claw shot... since Wind waker Link doesn't ever get claw shot... and Wind waker Link doesn't ever get the gale boomerang, so it won't make any dust of wind.

I'm actually very sure that they will make a lot of differences between the Star Fox characters... the shooter worked out fine... the difference between Fox and Falco's shoot was different enough... but they should have other different moves, to...

the most different characters from the same game most actually be Diddy Kong and Donkey Kong... they are the ones that is deffinitly not clones...

I gues Toon Link wouldn't be more clone to Link then Ike and Marth...

oh, and I didn't say some characters are not better then others... I said that it depends on what character that suits you best... and the reason why someone has become weaker is because they seamed to overpowered... they wanted most of the characters to be as good as each other... the power of the character should depend on if the character fit the person that's using that character...

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Wolf is not a clone. He has more of an original moveset than Luigi does in comparison to Mario.

I'm not kidding. He actually has one of the coolest fighting styles out of any of the characters. Every single one of his A attacks and throws are unique and utterly awesome.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Ness if surely buffed in Brawl!!

I've used Ness a lot in Melee, and now watching some of the new Brawl videos I can say this for sure. Ness if buffed!! His attacks are faster, less laggy. Pk flash is quicker, not so wide but still strong. Pk fire is so good now that is sort of spammable. Pk thunder is fast!! Nice for attacking and you can pull pk crusher ( better name than pkthunder 2 and inspired on M.Bison) in a breeze. Up yoyo is faster! I need to see down yo yo. I am very happy for Ness users. I am still worried tough , because Sheik seems even more powerful now (longer teleport and can use whip to recover). The game has been balanced upwards.

 

[Levitas]

Do you have brawl now? Do you have vids of Ness? If yes and yes, then you are my new best friend for the next few hours.

 

[Ademisk]

Well even if he did, what's to say it'd be any better than anything else we have? I wanna see Simna play Brawl, or Nessbounder or AngryLobster. Someone hella good.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Why don't you become Hella Good as them?

That's my purpose.