Ness' Matchups

[thesage]

Ness' Matchups:

Strong Disadvantage

Sheik
Marth
Jigglypuff
Fox

Disadvantage

Falco
Peach
Luigi

Even

Samus
Ice Climbers
Mr. Game and Watch
Link
Mario
Pikachu
Captain Falcon

Slight Advantage

Doctor Mario
Young Link
Pichu
Zelda
Ganondorf

Advantage

Kirby
DK
Yoshi
Bowser
Roy

Character Strategies:

VS. Marth - Lots of Marths will stay just outside your SH F-air/DJC F-air range and try to dash dance you for a grab. If you can predict they're going to try this, dash attack where you would normally F-air. (It's really hard to dash out of range of the dash attack. ) You'll catch them and pop them up for a DJC U-air (extremely low %'s) or an easy fulljump F-air, DJC U-air. Careful though, because the counter to this is simply shielding.
~from Reik

He isn't as easy to dtilt as cf and dorf since he can tech. What you can do is knock him off the stage and bair them into it. Though bair is easier to tech, the tech timing on a sweetspotted bair and a nonsweetspotted bair are very very different, messing up their timing.
~from Simna ibn Sind

I usually try to play edgehog-or-not-edgehog mindgames. If I you get him to Up+B early, it's a free bat or B-air.
~from Reik

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VS. Samus - Camp vs. Samus...it helps(and pk fire is good here too...use it on her bombs)...also if Samus is at middle%s and up(60+) and you knock her straight up into the air.....spend some time jugglign her with PK Thunder...she will have a hard time escaping....not as hard as LUIGI, but still a hard time. Just watch out for her bomb jumps.
~from Simna ibn Sind

Pk Fire outprioritizes Samus' full charge shots
~ from indie_dave

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Vs. Ice Climbers - Not only can u PK Fire at ICs but you can also start the fire on their ICE.
~from Simna ibn Sind

If you Pk Fire them Popo can DI out of it, but Nana won't. This will force Popo to save Nana. Take advantage of this.
~ from Delphiki

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Vs. Link - you can fair Link's bombs
~ from indie_dave

It's true that Link has the range and the projectiles in this match, but I think Ness actually deals with spam pretty well. He's fast on the ground, has a good shield-game, and DJCs allow you to manuever around projectiles better than most characters can.

Ness combos the f*ck out of Link, btw. DJC F-air to immediate SH F-air works very well. If you can hit with a DJC U-air at low%s Link will take a LOT of damage. He also might be the easiest character to KO with a DJC F-air -> Bat.

Link can combo Ness decently and absolutely ***** his recovery though, gotta give him that. At least Ness's bat outranges Link's Up + B recovery. You can also use D-tilts to screw up a non-sweetspot hookshot recovery. I'm not sure if a properly timed D-tilt will stop even a sweetspot hookshot.

You can aslo yyg glitch a link that missed his grab.
~from Reik

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Vs. Captain Falcon - I think CF has a slight advantage on larger stages like FD (yes, even though it's easier to combo him there), normal Stadium, and DL64 while Ness has a slight advantage on the smaller ones (Battlefield, FoD). His recovery is just perfect for D-tilt edgeguarding when he's coming from below. (I started using this because Cape techs EVERYTHING, and you can't tech D-tilt. ) After a few D-tilts people get impatient and stop trying to sweetspot. Wait until he is too high to tech and send him on his way.
~from Reik

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Vs. Ganon - He does better on the smaller stages, but I wouldn't give him the advantage on any. Maybe YS. Maybe. It's really easy to combo Ganon into F-smash from DJC F-air. His recovery is just perfect for D-tilt edgeguarding when he's coming from below. (I started using this because Cape techs EVERYTHING, and you can't tech D-tilt.) After a few D-tilts people get impatient and stop trying to sweetspot. Wait until he is too high to tech and send him on his way.
~from Reik

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Vs. Fox - He isn't as easy to dtilt as cf and dorf since he can tech. What you can do is knock him off the stage and bair them into it. Though bair is easier to tech, the tech timing on a sweetspotted bair and a nonsweetspotted bair are very very different, messing up their timing.
~from Simna ibn Sind

For Fox, you can start a combo on him at low % best with an uthrow. Uthrow to DCed uair or fair if they DI. If they dont, follow up with any aerial necessary. You can land uthrows by DjCing fair or dair.If they dont DI, hitting with the last spark in the dash attack can also lead to a grab, or any fast attack. Fox is just about the easiest character to juggle with DjCed uairs and utilts. After almost any combo that leaves Fox near you, you can end with a DjCed nair in place.

For edgeguarding, if Fox is above you, any aerial should just about stop him. This may force him to recover while level to the stage. When he does, you can use the dtilt to stop him right at the edge, or a yo-yo. If you release the yo-yo as he touches it, you will pull him up for an ftilt. If you keep charging it, it will have the same effect as a dtilt. After Fox drops below the edge, you can easily hit him with any edgeguarding aeial.
~from Earthbound 360
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Reik's method for chaingrabbing the space animals (works best on FD):

Ok, here's the hardest part: Get a grab. After that, U-throw.

Low %s - If they DI to either side, you can always catch them with a JC grab. No need to DJC U-air or DJC F-air and give them the opportunity to DI out. Just regrab them.
If they don't DI, be careful. Even at 0% they can jump or shine out with good timing. To be safe you can do a perfect DJC U-air*, then react to DI and dash JC grab.

Mid %s - If they DI to either side you have to dash and do a perfect DJC U-air while moving forward. Meaning you have to be holding forward while you double jump, then move to Up for the U-air. It's like a quarter-circle motion. Don't try to C-stick because that's too slow. After the U-air regrab if you think you can or do more U-airs into a B-air. This ends the combo around 85-95% and sets up for edgeguarding. Keep in mind that it doesn't KO.

Note: If they're near an edge after a DJC U-air and within F-smash range... then by all means... bat 'em.

High %s - You shouldn't be able to regrab them to high percents. However, if you get another grab, just U-throw B-air.

*What I call a perfect DJC U-air is when you start the U-air on one of the first few frames after double jumping, and time it so that you hit the ground immediately after the U-air hits the opponent, WITHOUT fastfalling. In this case at lower %s it helps if you hit the Fox as soon/high as possible, so you have more time to react to the DI.

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Vs. Docter Mario - I usually try to play edgehog-or-not-edgehog mindgames. If I you get him to Up+B early, it's a free bat or B-air.
~from Reik

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Vs. Jigglypuff - Watch out! She can eat your thunder! Try to tailwhip her while recovering and hit yourself back onto the stage. This is, of course, extremely hard. Jigglypuff also is really good at edgegaurding. It is highly recommended to use another character against Jigglypuff.
~from basically everybody on this forum

You can yyg a jigglypuff that missed her rest.
~from thesage
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Vs. Y. Link - Y. Link is faster than Link so it's a little harder to get through the run-away-and-throw-sh*t tactic. If you play a defensive fulljump-aerial-spammy Ness then you're going to get destroyed. Edgeguarding is almost the same as the Link matchup.

You can aslo yyg glitch a young link that missed his grab.
~from Reik

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Vs. Sheik - I play against my friend who mains Shiek a lot, and I find surprizingly that I can DJC air dodge to get out of the chainthrow after DI'ing all the way one way or the other, the lag on the air dodge does let him grab me again most of the time, but depending on the direction I air dodge, I can fake him out.

I used to get chain grabbed to about 60-80% then he would start juggling me, I find that if this happens you should DJC Down A, it almost always throws the Shieks timing off, and you end up hitting her perfectly with your Step Kick (eh, that's what I call it).
~from Noe3

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First Post:
What are Ness' matchups? Who is a definite advantage/disadvantage for him?

I know Marth, Jigglypuff, and Sheik are hard.

I know Bowser is his easiest matchup.

It would also be cool to have some character specific strategies, even if they seem to have no definite advantage over him. I or someone else could turn this into a guide or something.

I'm asking this since I am just about to enter the tournament scene, I'll try to get some vids of me up next weekend.

Please don't just list characters, I would really like some strats. This could be helpful for the rest of us Ness noobs.

 

[Delphiki]

I'd like to see this too, I need to learn more about Ness so I can take down Simna! He's taken me out of winners in two of the first three Sac Biweeklies.

I can tell you that the Ice Climbers do badly. Since Nana doesn't DI, Ness can repeatedly PK Fire her, and Popo will be forced to rescue her, forcing Popo into a bad position.

Jigglypuff seems to do a lot better, but I can't give any specific reasons. Also my skill took a big jump between the two sets against him, so that may have done just as much as the change in character.

 

[Tron V2.0]

fox and falco don't do so well against Ness. He can Pk fire them off the edge for an instant KO and he can juggle them pretty nicely. Nesses most useful move would probably be his fair so use that alot. Also Never down throw a Space animal, they can easily DI and attack almost immediately after.

 

[DD151]

PK Fire on a space animal isn't an instant KO. Granted it'll be a nuisance, but all it does is discourage them from using illusion or phantasm for recovery. That and juggles != win for Ness.

A good fox/falco gives everyone trouble, including Ness. Just make the most you can out of your setups (i.e. always uthrow to begin a juggle and bthrow when appropriate to KO), and edgeguard well. And hope for a gimp KO >.>

Anything that has range and aerial priority over Ness gives him trouble, which is why Fair is so important in these matchups.

I'll leave this to the more experienced Ness players because the only opponent I have experience with mains Marth -_-

 

[Earthbound360]

I've been wanting to keep up atopic like this for a while, but they always die -_-
I will post some of mine later.

But just to say, I think Ness does pretty well vs. Space animals.

EDIT: How do you spell weener? As in another word for hot dog?

 

[DD151]

It's spelled "wiener."

I agree that Ness does pretty well vs. space animals, but that's true of many matchups vs. space animals (easy comboing ftw). But that doesn't mean that Fox/Falco are inherently at a disadvantage against, say, every single character that can chainthrow them.

I dunno, but Fox and Falco players that don't make mistakes will be really tough matchups.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I dunno, but Fox and Falco players that don't make mistakes will be really tough matchups.

That'd be something to see...

But just to say, I think Ness does pretty well vs. Space animals.

Considering that it's low tier vs. top tier, yes. Still hard. They have advantages vs. everyone, that's why they are top.

It would also be cool to have some character specific strategies, even if they seem to have no definite advantage over him. I or someone else could turn this into a guide or something.

There's a bunch in the guide on these boards. it hasn't been updated in a long time though.

 

[indie_dave]

jiggly is a bum match for my ness -- i get outprioritized in the air :grr:

i'm still n00b though so i'm sure it's just me...

 

[Deleted member]

ness should beat yoshi mewtwo pikachu pichu zelda roy by default. everyone else is challenging.

I'd rather fight jigglypuff than kirby.

 

[Earthbound360]

Yoshi? Zelda?
Wow...
Kirby>Jiggly!?

 

[Reik]

I'd rather fight jigglypuff than kirby.

Who the hell did you play that made you wary of Kirby? 0_o

 

[Zurad]

wtf? I would never fight a Jiggly as Ness. Can't they just fly out and absorb your up b?

I always find it near impossible to recover with Ness when playing against a good Jigglypuff

 

[thesage]

wtf? I would never fight a Jiggly as Ness. Can't they just fly out and absorb your up b?

I always find it near impossible to recover with Ness when playing against a good Jigglypuff

You could try to airdodge back onto the stage.

 

[cF=)]

Samus on FD and PS is a crazy pain. That's a sure thing if you play someone good.

 

[Earthbound360]

Jigglypuff edgeguards by repeatedly knocking you closer to the blastzones, so airdodging back is usually not an option. Trust me, I know.

 

[Zurad]

If I was close enough to the stage to airdodge I probably wouldn't use pk thunder to help me recover in the first place

I'm talking about when you're all the way out there and your last resort is to pk thunder...THEN you're screwed!

unless you can tail whip jiggly and blast yourself back to the stage while Jiggly's stunned, but something tells me I'm not going to have that technique down...possibly because my name isn't Simna

 

[Earthbound360]

Yeah, I once PKTRE a Jiggs once. Ohhhhh man wasn't it wonderful. I even did pray once (but the Fox was a n00b).

Anyways, you are most likely not going to be near the stage if you are knocked off sinceballoons usually follow you out off stage.

 

[Tron V2.0]

Seriously, anybody that can easily come back on to the stage (like jiggs, samus, peach etc.) I'm having trouble with. They just won't die.

 

[HaPPyTheCoW]

i hate fighting samus and ice climbers with ness. samus's limbs are just so long, and her smash attacks are faster than the bat. and maybe its just my brother, but he owns me with his ice climbers, theyre his main (i have been able to kill some of his stocks though)

i have never had trouble fighting a jigglypuff, but i am pretty sure its because i havent played any pro jigglypuffs, haha. i dont know whats a pro jigglypuff though.

i have fighting samus more than marth!

 

[Deleted member]

Who the hell did you play that made you wary of Kirby? 0_o

joel isai alvarado

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Pikachu is difficult, because his recovery is just jank

 

[indie_dave]

joel isai alvarado

TT_TT wow

ever try to tilt Samus, Sheik, Falcon, Mario Bros., etc? doesn't happen... if they see my nessie try to reach with his stubby appendages, then they go crazy spamming their superior tilts.

messed up.

 

[Reik]

I'd rather fight jigglypuff than Isai.

Fixed.

Pikachu is difficult, because his recovery is just jank

Edgehog so he can't sweetspot, then when you see he's going to land on the stage, ledgewavedash and B-throw. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Deleted member]

idk, kirbstir beat me too, but the match was really close.

 

[thesage]

So the main problem makers for Ness are:

Jiggs, Marth, Ice Climbers*, Samus*, Kirby*, shiek.

Neutral:

Fox, Falco

Easy ones are:

yoshi, mewtwo, pikachu, pichu, zelda, roy, bowser

I'd like to get a ranking system in soon.

The * means that I have a comment on that character.

Ice Climbers: I haven't played any good ones, but from playing as them, and reading on this forum, I heard their airgame sucks. It's easy to edgegaurd them, and two of their b attacks (b and down b) heal you, which is kinda helpful. If you use pk fire on them it seperates Nana and Popo, making KOing Nana much simpler.

Samus: Her charge move can heal you and is easy to dodge/ pktb. It's easy to edgegaurd her (Pkt her when she uses her bombs, nair her when she uses her grapple beam, fair when she uses her screw jump). Her ground game is better than yours, but I prefer Ness' moves in the air. Plus Ness can djc. She should be in the neutral rank.

Kirby: Kirby shouldn't be hard for ness at all. He can eat your thunder, if he knocks you off the stage. He only has kirbycide, which is easy to dodge. He might have multiple jumps, but pk fire aimed correctly will get rid of that, as well as fair(s).

I'll write more later... I have finals right now. =(

 

[Reik]

I'm bored, so I'll post a useful character-specific tip:

VS. Marth - Lots of Marths will stay just outside your SH F-air/DJC F-air range and try to dash dance you for a grab. If you can predict they're going to try this, dash attack where you would normally F-air. (It's really hard to dash out of range of the dash attack. ) You'll catch them and pop them up for a DJC U-air (extremely low %'s) or an easy fulljump F-air, DJC U-air.

Careful though, because the counter to this is simply shielding.

 

[indie_dave]

OH OH really odd, my pkFire ate Samus' full charge shots vs. a human Samus. pkFire destroyed it, but kept going and hit Samus... wonder if that counts for skewing the tally..? i notice many of ness' attacks have strange quirks to them, like Fairing Link's bombs, or the way Nair operates vs projectiles, etc... didn't find a post on this, sorry if already up

 

[Delphiki]

Do any of you who claim that Pichu is bad against Ness actually play a good Pichu?

Today I played several friendlies with Simna, and of all my characters (ICs, Peach, Pichu, Puff) Peach was the only to beat him, but Pichu came in a close second, and outperformed both Jigglypuff and my Ice Climbers by a wide margin. My Pichu is not as good as my Climbers, but probably better than my Puff, depending on the matchup.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

and then we played Roy dittos^_^

btw, more on Samus and Climbers...not only can u PK Fire at ICs but you can also start the fire on their ICE. Plus, camp vs. Samus...it helps(and pk fire is good here too...use it on her bombs)...also if Samus is at middle%s and up(60+) and you knock her straight up into the air.....spend some time jugglign her with PK Thunder...she will have a hard time escaping....not as hard as LUIGI, but still a hard time.

 

[Reik]

spend some time jugglign her with PK Thunder...she will have a hard time escaping....not as hard as LUIGI, but still a hard time.

Untumble + air dodge?

 

[Earthbound360]

OH OH really odd, my pkFire ate Samus' full charge shots vs. a human Samus. pkFire destroyed it, but kept going and hit Samus... wonder if that counts for skewing the tally..? i notice many of ness' attacks have strange quirks to them, like Fairing Link's bombs, or the way Nair operates vs projectiles, etc... didn't find a post on this, sorry if already up

Thats because PKF is one of the highest priority projectiles in the game. It can pierce through almost any other projectile.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Untumble + air dodge?

even if you miss with pk thunder on the way up(like if they airdodge it), pk thunder still falls faster than they do and u have a nicecushion of time to hit them again even if you miss them once...bomb jumps are actually more of a problem than airdodges, but its still hard for them to escape...with Luigi its harder cause he has no bombs^_^

 

[Tron V2.0]

How good is Ness against Captain Falcon or Ganondorf? I haven't played against good ones yet.

 

[Earthbound360]

Ness should have an even match against those two. Captain Falcon being easier with his easily edgeguarded reovery and comboability due to fall speed.

And yeah, PKT juggling is nice. Luigi is so floaty and has such terrible aerial movement that he is the perfect one to do this to.

 

[xCUREx]

This is Cure i think ness' tilt A would work best cause they tend to jump alot

 

[Reik]

CF and Ganon are two of my favorite matchups as Ness. Very fun.

CF is a bit harder than Ganon because of his manueverability and combos. The matchup is pretty close though, IMO.

I think CF has a slight advantage on larger stages like FD(yes, even though it's easier to combo him there), normal Stadium, and DL64 while Ness has a slight advantage on the smaller ones (Battlefield, FoD). Ganon does better on the smaller stages, but I wouldn't give him the advantage on any. Maybe YS. Maybe.

It's just so easy to combo Ganon into F-smash from DJC F-air. I almost feel guilty.

Here's something fun against CF and Ganon: Their recovery is just perfect for D-tilt edgeguarding when they're coming from below. (I started using this because Cape techs EVERYTHING, and you can't tech D-tilt. ) After a few D-tilts people get impatient and stop trying to sweetspot. Wait until they're too high to tech and send them on their way.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

for the likes of ppl like marth and fox...ppl who arent as easy to dtilt as cf and dorf....i've had problems with them teching my stuff too...what i do for them is run off the stage and bair them into it...now that's relatively easy to tech, but the tech timing on a sweetspotted bair and a nonsweetspotted one are very very different....this is how i prevent techs from them

 

[Reik]

Too risky for my tastes. >_>

Against Marth, Doc, etc... I usually try to play edgehog-or-not-edgehog mindgames. If I get them to Up+B early, it's a free bat or B-air.

I seem to suck against Doc though, so maybe I should try something different. Something besides switching to Falco.

 

[Delphiki]

*Just smiles and nods*

 

[indie_dave]

i get grabbed by ganondorf/cf's up+B when i try to spike them -- when is it safe to kick um down?