Ness matchup spread

[Link24a]

http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/share/?user=Link24&char=1128

Thoughts?

 

[Earthbound360]

Just a few of mine...

Bowser's way too low. I don't think enough people have played a good Bowser, he's really not as helpless here as you might assume.
Mac way too low. He's certainly one of our easier matchups, but it's not THAT bad.
Mega Man is even, possibly even bad. It's certainly not favorable.
Sonic is 100% a bad matchup, possibly our worst one.

 

[Link24a]

Just a few of mine...

Bowser's way too low. I don't think enough people have played a good Bowser, he's really not as helpless here as you might assume.
Mac way too low. He's certainly one of our easier matchups, but it's not THAT bad.
Mega Man is even, possibly even bad. It's certainly not favorable.
Sonic is 100% a bad matchup, possibly our worst one.

Bowser has a huge hitbox and is insanely easy to juggle.
Yeah, I don't think Mac is that helpless after consideration... pk thunder's tail destroys him offstage though.
Mega man I guess is even.
I guess sonic is 6-4 imo... They have similar functionality except sonic is faster and has no projectile. Sonic's probably an extraneous counterpick

Thanks for the feedback, I'll change this

 

[PKBeam]

Juggling Bowser is not a task to be taken lightly.

 

[Link24a]

Juggling Bowser is not a task to be taken lightly.

Explain?

 

[Earthbound360]

The juggling game doesn't completely make the matchup for us.

Bowser's free armor prevents him from getting trapped by PKF until 40%... which is about the percent that dthrow, fair stops working
Bowser's punish game is EXTREMELY painful, and Ness has a lot of punishable options. You'd be surprised at how quick he can be.
Bowser's aerials are huge and hit hard, trading with them is NOT fun. You can't just throw your fair out and pretend everything is alright.
Juggling him isn't that easy either. If you screw up, you WILL be aching.
He's reeeaaaaallly good at edgeguarding too.

 

[Link24a]

The juggling game doesn't completely make the matchup for us.

Bowser's free armor prevents him from getting trapped by PKF until 40%... which is about the percent that dthrow, fair stops working
Bowser's punish game is EXTREMELY painful, and Ness has a lot of punishable options. You'd be surprised at how quick he can be.
Bowser's aerials are huge and hit hard, trading with them is NOT fun. You can't just throw your fair out and pretend everything is alright.
Juggling him isn't that easy either. If you screw up, you WILL be aching.
He's reeeaaaaallly good at edgeguarding too.

Bowser's hurtbox is quite large, so doing a raw grab isn't as hard, but that's kinda pushing it...
I'll have to test his dthrow fair combo and see when it stops working...
Pk fire I still think is a useful damage building tool even before 40% as it's still definitely safe in hit due to the initial knockback

I guess I need to fight better bowsers or see some in play

 

[Yokoblue]

I would say that Yoshi is unfavored for Ness... Its almost at that line but it would need to transfer. Yoshi air speed and superarmor 2nd jump help him a lot against pk thunder. Ness get also spiked easily against Yoshi because of his slow recovery.

 

[Noa.]

Well I typically post my thoughts on how I feel about certain matchups somewhat often. I'll do them here today. Again I only focused on the better characters in the roster. I don't have a strong opinion on how bad or good a disadvantage or advantage is.


Disadvantage:
Even:
Advantage

 

[Earthbound360]

Decided to switch out Diddy for MM now @ Noa. ?

 

[Noa.]

Actually on my previous list I had Diddy as even. Honestly it doesn't feel like a hard matchup to me at all. And Megaman is not that big of a disadvantage, but I do think there is one.

Though i seem to be the only one doesn't mind Diddy.

 

[Link24a]

Actually on my previous list I had Diddy as even. Honestly it doesn't feel like a hard matchup to me at all. And Megaman is not that big of a disadvantage, but I do think there is one.

Though i seem to be the only one doesn't mind Diddy.

There's definitely a disadvantage

 

[Earthbound360]

I just think Diddy's annoying speed, surprisingly long ranged aerials that seem to trade through ours, and general stage control with the banana is annoying enough to put him at a negative.

And I agree with MM being a slight disadvantage. It's either that or close enough to even IMO.

 

[Link24a]

I just think Diddy's annoying speed, surprisingly long ranged aerials that seem to trade through ours, and general stage control with the banana is annoying enough to put him at a negative.

And I agree with MM being a slight disadvantage. It's either that or close enough to even IMO.

Diddy wins in range, grab combos, and pretty much ties for killing. Ness can really gimp him though.... I still think it's 6-4 Diddy

I'd say probably 5-5 vs mega man or 5.5-4.5 either way

 

[Noa.]

Ness and Diddy have similar tools and have similar goals against each other in the matchup. I feel like both characters' tools are equal against each other for the most part. The only thing that sticks out for me is that Diddy has a greater margin for error. It it easier for Diddy to punish us than for us to punish Diddy. But when both characters punish each other it tends to go very evenly. They both have somewhat susceptible recoveries if you get off a series of hard reads and both kill very well.

I suppose because we have to play more carefully it would be a slight advantage for Diddy, but it always feels like an even matchup to me when I play it.

 

[L9999]

I think Link should be even. Link can wall Ness if he wants. Most MU require to be careful though anyways. I had enough with the Rosalina bias, Sanic is the worst matchup Ness has.

 

[Earthbound360]

I'm starting to wonder if ROB is bad too. That guy is a monster, I think he's one of the most underrated characters in this game.

 

[Link24a]

I think Link should be even. Link can wall Ness if he wants. Most MU require to be careful though anyways. I had enough with the Rosalina bias, Sanic is the worst matchup Ness has.

Link is like 4.5

Rosa is definitely an issue and so is sonic

 

[Luco]

I feel good for being the radical fellow that claimed MM was a bad MU for us before it was cool. <3

I'm pretty much in agreement with Noa on these MUs. Diddy might be -1 but It's pretty close either way, ZSS I've always thought was even but the more I play that MU the more I'm convinced we just win neutral, even when it looks like we shouldn't. It's... weird. Because of that I could see the MU being in the positives for us. Pika is probably even, so is Yoshi (Yoshi does feel like a -1 sometimes but I think it's probably actually 0). Wario I'm curious about, but I've never really played the MU, and we might win against luigi but I'm not sure?

 

[Noa.]

I'm starting to wonder if ROB is bad too. That guy is a monster, I think he's one of the most underrated characters in this game.

Rob can be annoying in neutral but he gets juggled by pk thunder for days and days. I haven't played any good ROBs however. I should get around to playing 8bitman some time

I feel good for being the radical fellow that claimed MM was a bad MU for us before it was cool. <3

I'm pretty much in agreement with Noa on these MUs. Diddy might be -1 but It's pretty close either way, ZSS I've always thought was even but the more I play that MU the more I'm convinced we just win neutral, even when it looks like we shouldn't. It's... weird. Because of that I could see the MU being in the positives for us. Pika is probably even, so is Yoshi (Yoshi does feel like a -1 sometimes but I think it's probably actually 0). Wario I'm curious about, but I've never really played the MU, and we might win against luigi but I'm not sure?

I haven't played against Pika much so my opinion on him is not strong.

I've played against Yoshi a hell of a lot. And I think it's an even matchup. I agree that it can feel disadvantaged sometimes but Yoshi has real trouble getting kills and dealing with fair.

I've played a bit with a good wario, but not a huge amount. My gut says that the matchuo is in our favor, but I want to see more wario play and face more wario's before I can say that. Fair gives wario a lot of trouble.

Luigi feels really even to me, but I can see why anyone would think it's in either characters favor. Trades happen in 20 to 40 percent strings so it can feel really flip floppy

 

[Earthbound360]

I'm actually convinced that ZSS is a win for us. I just don't feel like she has too huge of an advantage, or any at all in a lot of the matchup aspects. You'd think she'd have neutral, but Ness' tiny frame gets him out of crap a lot with her. Add to that Ness' chunky, hard hitting moves and I'd say we can hit her just as much as she hits us in neutral (maybe more lol). Ness has a much better time KOing, just about as good of a combo game, and i just never feel too threatened off stage in this matchup (not like Sheik or Sonic).

Pikachu is annoying as crap. Probably even from experience, maaaaaaayyyyybe slightly in our favor from on paper thoughts. I just feel like fair does a decent job of shutting out his short range and QA nonsense, and magnet nullifies thunderjolt (and thunder to a lesser extent) well enough for it to actually bug the PIka player.

Luigi is even or slight disadvantage. This is my most well versed matchup period. I'm not saying I'm factually right though, but I AM saying I stand firm on my opinion.

Wario is either even or advantaged. He has range issues, so dealing with fair is hard for him. He has to commit early to aerials to beat ours out with speed as a result, which forces him to adopt a risky playstyle. Don't go too far off the stage for him though, and for the love of god do NOT underestimate that waft. It's a KO punch that works in the air. Start playing EXTREMELY cautiously when you know it's charged.