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Ness Fair

LessThanThree

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
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257
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Orange County!!!
Im having trouble approaching my friend's fair spamming ness. The first spark stops w/e attackim using, and the other ones hit me. Essentially... he fairs my approaches and camps the rest of the game, and bthrows for the win. Any effective ness approaches or tactics?
 

LastReaper

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
52
Location
Montreal, Canada
I know one that should make him angry. Chain throw him!This is Ness and Lucas's best weakness! Cuz their escape animation can lead to another throw. You can easily rack up 30% MINIMUM! If u don't like that tactic, then try approaching him with mach tornado (B), or try to dodge his Fair. You could just camp like him and wait, too, just to get him frustrated and he'll be the one attacking you.
 

LessThanThree

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point taken, however i am an aggressive player, and find Meta's strongest point being that he can keep the pressure up on some1's sheild, and force them to run away. I'm not a fan of camping, and airdodging his fair just begs the question of what to do next... cuz my friend has better timing than me and will hit me before i react. Lastly, the tornado isn't as great as people think, already my friends are finding flaws to it and i'm using it less and less. My only difficulty is getting inside on Ness, then i can keep the pressure on and usually get about 30-40% in before he gets away and i have to find another approach.
 

LastReaper

Smash Cadet
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Jan 31, 2008
Messages
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Well then...what should I say? I would practice my timing till its equal or better than his. And I found something good with the tornado; you should always finish the move on the ground. Because if you finish your move right in the middle of the air, your opponent can strike you hard as you're vulnerably falling as quick as you can to reach the ground. It's not as effective as if you would press B continuously, but it can lead to follow ups and you could get him off the stage pretty quick, as it is your main goal ( cuz ness doesn't have quite a good recovery). And you mind to dash right on him at the start, instead of attacking, you should shield. Its attack will fail and you could follow up with a grab, leading to the famous chain etc. Hope this helps you a bit moar...
 

KiteDXX

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
116
Mach Tornado ravages most approaches rather effectively.

Aside from that, really, you need to start shieldgrabbing that attack instead of moving into it. Sometimes you have to be patient. I like to think of it this way: the character who is in control of the battle is more likely to win. If you keep rushing them and they're attacking you over and over with the same attack, they're clearly in control of the match, and they will most likely be winning it as a result. A good match has reversals of who is control whom.

If you have tap jump enabled, you can Shuttle Loop (up B) directly out of your shield by inputting the command while the shield is up. Absorb the full attack and counterattack.

Generally, do not let the opponent control your approaches.
 

NESSBOUNDER

Smash Master
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Dec 19, 2002
Messages
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I know one that should make him angry. Chain throw him!This is Ness and Lucas's best weakness! Cuz their escape animation can lead to another throw. You can easily rack up 30% MINIMUM! If u don't like that tactic, then try approaching him with mach tornado (B), or try to dodge his Fair. You could just camp like him and wait, too, just to get him frustrated and he'll be the one attacking you.
Sorry, I double checked my data, and the most Metaknight can do against Ness is hit him with a Ftilt from a grab release. With DI, he can escape the chain grab.

If you're having trouble getting around Fair, just remember that it's a horribly wimpy move, and that it's basically his only approach against Metaknight. So use Mach Tornado more, or even try using dimension cape.
 

LessThanThree

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Orange County!!!
When he was getting pissed off about the tornado i knew it was working. Now i can get in there and throw what little weight i've got around. lol. now, though, it seems ********, but he manages to keep me up in the air for a considerable amount of time with PK thunder, and he's really good about keeping it close enough to him that he can get PH Thunder II when i rush at him. Airdodging it just makes me get hit by the tail of it. Suggestions? Also, what to do about ness's Backthrow?
 

LastReaper

Smash Cadet
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Jan 31, 2008
Messages
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Look, do your friend have wi fi connection? I cant really help you unless I truly see the problem. Could you send me his brawl FC? If I find any solutions, I'll tell you. kkthx
 

LessThanThree

Smash Journeyman
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Oct 4, 2006
Messages
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Orange County!!!
I'll get it from him and let you know. Basically, he finds the gayest strategies with whomever he tries to use. His best character is his Zelda, whom i tear to shreds. Next is his DDD and Ness. DDD is no problem, but I can't beat his Ness unless I switch to my Rob or Olimar. My goal here is to not have to rely on match-up advantages to beat him, especially becasue Ness and Metaknight are supposedly equally matched, witch i'm having truoble beleiving. We played 4 hours last night and 4 the night before, and i managed 3 wins with my Metaknight agaisnt his Ness. :( I'll get his code and let you know, we are currently working on finding a reliable, high quality means of recording matches so we can upload to youtube. Then, I'm sure you guys can be of much greater help. Until then, his brawl code is... (calling him now)
 

LastReaper

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Thx a lot, but won't have wi fi for a week now, i'm switching house and I don't have internet NEITHER a computer... So your friend and me could battle it out next friday (not tomorrow). 'Till then I would recommend you to train hard vs lvl 9 Ness and have fun! lol cya. I'll be back.
 

the Lexx

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 5, 2008
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85
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New Jersey
When he was getting pissed off about the tornado i knew it was working. Now i can get in there and throw what little weight i've got around. lol. now, though, it seems ********, but he manages to keep me up in the air for a considerable amount of time with PK thunder, and he's really good about keeping it close enough to him that he can get PH Thunder II when i rush at him. Airdodging it just makes me get hit by the tail of it. Suggestions? Also, what to do about ness's Backthrow?
Remember you can glide twice, and I'm pretty sure that your glide outspeeds PKT or at least makes you a tough target to hit.

What to do about the backthrow? Don't get grabbed ;)
 

LessThanThree

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Oct 4, 2006
Messages
257
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Orange County!!!
well thx for the not getting grabbed bit. also, training against level 9s is like... learning bad habits or picking on my little cousin who can beat a level 9, whom i can four stock. Training against level 9s is not a good idea. Were it not for that comment, i'd have more respect for your other ones. Anyways, he was beating me 9/10 times at first, now im up to 3/10. Will be happy with 5-6/10 i guess. Now, so anyone have other creative ways to get close to ness other than tornado?
 

ckm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
402
MK has a few other approach options other than just plain fair or tornado. Listen to Shears, first of all... he seems to know what hes talking about (although I cant confirm the chain-grab). Practicing against CPUs can help alot with ness because you get to practice chasing him off the stage to kill him when he's using his return. This is ness/lucas' biggest weakness, IMO... they are easy targets when using it. If you can perfect that, you will have a MUCH higher chance of winning vs. them.

As far as approches go, there are other options... keep in mind that any time you run at him, you can shield his PK fire and it will do nothing. sometimes i will approach, knowing that they will PK fire, block it, then run at them to hit them before they can complete a second one.

here are a couple that you could try:

1) dash attack into upsmash or downsmash (try to use downsmash as little as possible though, for decay reasons). When doing this, make sure you dash THROUGH your opponent so they cant shield grab you. As with any of these options, try not to become too predictable.

2) Fair > Fair > Fair > Dair. Basically, you perform consecutive arials while still moving upwards/forward with each hop. then, you can finish it with a Dair when they arent suspecting it. Sometimes I do just one Fair, sometimes I do several. You can also perform multiple Dairs while hovering above them, and choose the right time to fast fall it (usually when they drop their shield or finish dodging). Always make sure you land (whether Fair or Dair) out of range of a counter throw (I like to land behind them with the Dair, and I DI backwards if Im landing from an Fair.

3) Drill rush is a decent approach, as long as you use it right. Alot of ppl claim this move is easily punished, but I disagree if its done correctly. For one thing, I like to end the attack with a downward vector. This will not only ensure the final hit connects which has the most knockback, but also helps to keep distance after the attack so its less punishable. Also, if you are unsure whether they will be ready for it, try to end the attack behind them so they cant retaliate afterwards. Usually when you get punished for this move, its because the move ends right in front of them, and they are able to shieldgrab you. This move is really good against ppl who roll too much, as it catches them in the roll really well. You can also Drill Rush at an angle downwards from the air... this works really well against projectile spamming opponents. You can approach via the air, then when he does PK fire, you drill rush forward and down, hitting him as he does the attack. Again, dont be predictable with this one.

4) Walk > Ftilt/Dtilt
Sometimes you can become too predictable when you are always rushing in, so you can try creeping in slowly with a walk. Be ready for the PK fire, block it, and hit him with a tilt.

5) Glide > Glide attack

Remember that you can glide without using shuttle loop. Using shuttle loop can become a little obvious sometimes, and people begin to expect the glide attack when they see it. Also, SL is one of your best KO moves so dont waste it when you dont need it. Sometimes I use this regular glide to avoid projectiles , and smack em with a glide attack when I get within range. Also remember that if you perform the attack low enough to the ground, there will be no lag from the attack and you can combo into something else or evade any counter they might have in store for you.


6) Don't forget to use throws! Mk's Dthrow combos really well into Fair, or even into Shuttle loop at higher percentages. Using throws is so important because it keeps your opponent guessing. This one is obvious, but its still worth mentioning because a good grab game can make or break a match.

hope this helped, gl with the ness matchups in the future!
 

LessThanThree

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ckm, that was extremely helpful, and i actually started oing a few of thsoe things already. I've never been a fan of drill rush, but i'll try working on it. I've been dash-attacking a little more, going through his sheild landing behind him, just didn't know what move to try next other than dsmash, but u-smash is a good idea, thx for that. And the tilts, boy do they piss him off. It's a 50-50 match-up me and him now... i just don't want it to be that close so keep the suggestions coming. Basically, i've come to realize that his fair beats my fair, he can do little to nothing about tornado, or dtilt, landing behind him when i attack his sheild is good, and fair and dair are my friends when he's off the edge... and nair, and bair, and, well, you ge the idea... he's a sitting goose. Thx for the help guys. Eventually he's gonna work on his snake when he finds how horrible that match-up is for MK, and i'll really be in need of help
 

ckm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
402
im glad i could help! a few things:

i was wrong about the up throw chaining into shuttle loop. i could have sworn I landed that before, but i was practicing it today and couldnt get it to work. however, you can chain well from dthrow or fthrow. Dthrow chains into a shorthop fair very easily at low or high percentages. When they are higher, they can DI out of it though I think. thats when you switch it up to something else. I like to fthrow, dash towards them, then catch them as they come down with an upsmash or uptilt (or upair). I also combo into tornados alot, as it seems to keep them in it better if you catch them while directly under them. keep in mind that they can do Dair to knock you out of the tornado, so its best to do it while they are still flailing from an earlier attack (before they can perform a move).

As far as his Fair still beating your Fair, I think you might want to work on spacing. Have you gotten the short-hop Fair to DI backwards thing down yet? You need to use the c-stick to do this, as far as I know. Just shorthop towards the opponent, Fair using forward on the c-stick, then hit back on the control stick. This will land you out of range of a counter attack, and you can even repeat the move without landing (using multiple jumps). once you get your spacing right, you should be able to Fair him as long as you keep him at the right distance. Also, theres no way he can time every one of your arials in order to Fair you back if you are doing them fast. What you want to avoid is flying in and doing an Fair at the obvious time. I have never had alot of trouble with ness/lucas and their Fair, but maybe my opponents just arent timing it as well... who knows?

Good luck with the ness battles, and hope he doesnt pick up snake because he really is a pain in the butt to fight with MK.
 

LessThanThree

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well he's already working on snake... i can beat him now, but soon idk. And yes, i was a melee player, and i can shfair and di away. I have no problem with is lucas, however, just his ness, he jumps at me and fairs, i jump at him and fair, and regardless of who hits first he hits me second, so at best its an equal trade, and at worst he hits both times. I've tried baiting him, dodging and counterattacking, keeping my distance so he can't hit me and trying to sneak in and punish him on landing, but it seems his fair is ridiculous priority and he can pull out a second one before i can. I'm geting better at it though, and when he doesn't come up with me i'm really good about either staying out of grab range or landing behind his sheild. Just wondering what every1 prefers when they land behind a sheild... dsmash would just diminish unless it was within kill range, so im thinking nado, ftilt, or another aerial. I can't seem to turnaround and grab fast enough tho, any1 else able to grab after landing behind some1' sheild before they could retaliate?
 

ckm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
402
upsmash works well, if you land close enough. nothing wrong with using a downsmash every now and then, even if its not gonna kill. I find myself using it more than I'd like, but above all I try to keep pressure, pressure, pressure... and a quick downsmash keeps em on their toes.
 

giuocob

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Mar 24, 2006
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Most people here don't seem to believe in Dimensional Cape, but I think it has a lot of potential as an approach so long as you don't become predictable. Run up, teleport behind him, and slash. Mixing things up is obviously great with this too. You can teleport past him without attacking, which has much less ending lag and puts you out of grab range, and then Dsmash or Ftilt. Or, just to keep him guessing, simply teleport in place and then run up and attack him.
 

LastReaper

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Jan 31, 2008
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Most people here don't seem to believe in Dimensional Cape, but I think it has a lot of potential as an approach so long as you don't become predictable.
Absolutely true ( Yeah I managed to get to my friends house and I've internet for a day...lol ). If you get launched in the air and your ooponent is waiting for you to come down to him, you can faint him with the use of the cape to reach the ground an he can't predict the way you will land so it's pretty usefull. It's also a DARN good way to grab the edge quickly whe you need to. It's called dimensional edgehog and it's usefull, I tell you. I recommend not using the cape for attacking unless your opponent is at high damage %, because the knockback isn't that good and you're wide open after the attack. So generally use it for faking out.

So now you're through with his Ness? Good job!
Now for his Snake...
The first thing that comes up into mind when i'm fighting a snake is; ****! Always stay close to him. If you let him slip through your grasp, he'll start planting his mines and c4s to annoy you. And remember that the farter you are when the nickita hits you, the more damage you get. You should get him off the edge as soon as possible and kill him with Dairs and Fairs before he uses his Up+B. That's about it.

Oh and I saw your winning progress against your friend, Congratz! Keep it up!

If it's still a need, You can PM your friend's Brawl friend code anytime you want. Till then, cya!
 

RangeOverMatter

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
17
Location
AZ
ok, wanna know how to ****? Mach Tornado...The End lol.
Just messing, but seriously it is a good attack to combo break someone and get in their face for a second. Then follow up with some Fair Spamming or maybe the good old fashion Meta Combo.
Which would be, DThrow>USmash lol. It is just fun to bust out that little thing because it usually hits.
Also, to really piss someone off, try using Shuttle Loop out of Shield. Marth players do it alot with their shield to Dolphin Slash. But with Meta you can sometimes get lucky and Shuttle Loop to Glide Attack which is really helpful.

So try those out
-RoM
 

Metro Knight

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Mar 27, 2008
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705
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Mississippi
Sparkles go through mach... Most of your moves go through Ness' just dont get hit by the sparkles and dodge a lot. That back throw is a pain, just be sure to finish off w/e you can. Even if his 3rd jump hits you, he loses a lot of recovery from it, always chase him.
 

LessThanThree

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
257
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Orange County!!!
i hate to abandon MK, but i played random the other day, and got Fox, and managed to shinespike like a mofo, so i may just put MK on pause till i decide if i like Fox better or not. Sorry guys, hopefully i'll be back
 

Mr. Trouble Maker

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
8
I just want to mention that i found so much general infomation in this thread about metaknight that isnt included in the guide...many thanks
 
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