Ness AT preview/Assistance request

[GMaster171]

First of all, I posted awhile ago about a new AT possible with Ness, which allowed him to fire a PK fire horizontally while having lag from the aerial one, much akin to what Lucas can do anyway. I finally got around to making a short video just showing what it is, but this should lead to more exploration/discussion hopefully. The text description is in THIS post but was made at the time of discovery, so its a tiny bit different.

Anyway, heres the video showing it, mind you its only 4 seconds long, but its just to show what it is. Discuss.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcw02cKbTiY

As well, I kind of want this to serve as a request for some help with a project. I plan to make a more comprehensive and player friendly video to describe how this tech is done, how to practice, what its benefits are and when to best use it. I plan this to just start a series of Ness help videos, not being something you must follow, just a couple videos on how the community thinks Ness' moveset should be used, covering as many uses and moves as possible, intending it as more of a guidelines or a reference, not the definite way of playing Ness. Of course this is impossible alone, I am nowhere near the best Ness, so I want to use this post to see if anyone would be willing to give opinions to aid this project. I don't ask much, just to be constructive and to post lol. If you are interested in helping, post here or PM me or something, so I can see if this is even possible.

Keep it up Ness mains.

 

[G13_Flux]

hm thats really interesting. how often can u do this? is it easy enough to be done reliably?

also, i know a lot about the uses of DJCing, where to apply it, and how to do it. I am not a ness main, i main peach, but ive used him enough to know a good amount about his pressure tactics involving DJCing. also, despite being a peach main, ness and peach actually have similar playstyles in regards to their approach and neutral game when nobody has a positional advantage. Im not sure if ud rather have exclusively ness mains, but im very insightful and i try to be as unbiased as possible with my analyses.

 

[GMaster171]

Its by far not the most consistent tech, for me at least (but I still miss waveshines every once in awhile), and the difficulty comes from the fact there is no guaranteed way to do it, if you FF or PKF to early/late, it wont work. I'v been trying to develop visual queues, sound queues, timing feelings, no FF, and DJC methods, but just getting the same thing over and over is difficult for me atm. Mind you, iv only really practiced for 2 or 3 hours in the lab, everything else has been mid match attempts, which is like trying to learn cross stage waveshines by going directly into matches and attempting them on Marth, its just not too efficient.

Sure, I'm open to people helping as long as they have some knowledge of Ness, and try to help, I'm good with that. Really wish more people would help, but mhm, maybe I'm just rushing.

 

[G13_Flux]

well its like wolfs side b cancels. In theory, theres a lot of applications that they can have in connecting with the move mid combo at any percent on pretty much any character. but since theres 4 different lengths its so hard to do it exactly when u want it. with enough practice, ive gotten them down a fair portion of the time, but nowhere near usable in play. so this is probably something similar. really hard to do, but maybe with enough constant practice its possible to nail it.

and dont worry, ive notice that most of the time, people on smashboards prefer typical, social, easy thinking and funny threads. i tried starting a thread in the general discussion that really required people to think, and one person posted.... i just think that if asked to put in a little work, most people are like hell no. i, on the other hand, love stimulating intellectual reasoning and conversation. so i have absolutely no problem helping out with ways to make guides/videos/posts/material that can help people to understand a character from both a broad, simple perspective and from a detailed scrutinizing view. its really something that would go more appreciated at the backroom level, as many of them are very intellectually active in smash material. but hey what can you do haha

 

[The_NZA]

I've practiced this pkfire cancel and i find it incredibly inconsistent so I gave up. Figured my time is better spent learning the full application of all of his jumps. Also, how are people using his down B and in what way is it superior to simply nair?

 

[GMaster171]

Well I don't mean to sound harsh, but just because you cant do it, doesn't mean its not worth the time. How long did you practice? And was it all mid match? As I said above, this will take some time investment in the lab to get down, and even then will be fairly difficult, but the reward for doing one successfully is incredible. I went through the trouble of teaching both my friends exactly how to dodge PKF, and beat them up until they learned. I then began using this tech where I thought it would work, and the times I got it, it completely caught them off guard, and they started being hit by even normal PKF again, when they could dodge them fairly easy just minutes before.

If you don't have the commitment to practice even the hardest things, I don't really think you will get far in this game lol. This is by far not a beginner technique, its for people who are very knowledgeable with Ness who are looking for more options, not really for people still figuring out their B&B options. No offence of course I'm just stating that I don't expect everyone to get this quickly, even I don't, and I found it lol.

As for magnet, I currently use it if I miss a RAR, or for quickly turning myself around in the air. This is mostly cause I fight Ivy, Jiggs, Zard and a aggro Pit, none of which use energy projectiles much (Pit and Zard are heavy aggro). Other ways I can think of it being used is as a mixup, if they try to DI nair up, and get hit by magnet, I believe that results in a free uair. Use both, on and off. (although this isnt really the place to discuss that, more to focus on uses of the tech, or volunteering to help lol)

 

[The_NZA]

Well I don't mean to sound harsh, but just because you cant do it, doesn't mean its not worth the time. How long did you practice? And was it all mid match? As I said above, this will take some time investment in the lab to get down, and even then will be fairly difficult, but the reward for doing one successfully is incredible. I went through the trouble of teaching both my friends exactly how to dodge PKF, and beat them up until they learned. I then began using this tech where I thought it would work, and the times I got it, it completely caught them off guard, and they started being hit by even normal PKF again, when they could dodge them fairly easy just minutes before.

If you don't have the commitment to practice even the hardest things, I don't really think you will get far in this game lol. This is by far not a beginner technique, its for people who are very knowledgeable with Ness who are looking for more options, not really for people still figuring out their B&B options. No offence of course I'm just stating that I don't expect everyone to get this quickly, even I don't, and I found it lol.

As for magnet, I currently use it if I miss a RAR, or for quickly turning myself around in the air. This is mostly cause I fight Ivy, Jiggs, Zard and a aggro Pit, none of which use energy projectiles much (Pit and Zard are heavy aggro). Other ways I can think of it being used is as a mixup, if they try to DI nair up, and get hit by magnet, I believe that results in a free uair. Use both, on and off. (although this isnt really the place to discuss that, more to focus on uses of the tech, or volunteering to help lol)

dude, i really don't get why you are so combative. I didn't say the technique was useless, I just said it was currently out of my skill range. How about you don't tell me how far or not far I'm going to get in this game? You could have easily just said "yeah its hard, but in my experience when I've gotten it right, I've had great followups". The value judgement on my play wasn't necessary. Especially when you've never seen me play. Furthermore, Ness has some of the greatest array of technical play in many different dimensions––for me to say I'd rather spend 3 hours on something else doesn't say a damn thing about my skill.

As far as talking about the magnet, I figured the type of discussion you wanted in this topic was all kinds of advanced tech. My bad for misinterpreting a topic title that does not explicitly mention pkfire at all.

 

[GMaster171]

If its out of your skill range, why are you complaining about its difficulty? Thats like trying quantum physics while in high school, then complaining to a professor that its too hard and inst worth the time. I have said multiple times that it is very difficult to do consistently, so I don't think its necessary to complain.

I wasn't saying you specifically, when I used "you" I was making a generalization that anybody needs more than the basics of Ness for this tech to be comfortable, or even a option for people. Now, saying you would rather work on something like Ness' jump options does mean that this tech might not be for your skill level, as Ness' DJC options arent really advanced, just there are a lot of them, its quantity, not difficulty. I don't want to call you a bad player, but going with what you posted, you might want to look at what you should learn, and think before making posts about difficulty with something you know you cant do only because of a current lack of skill. Like Fox's wave shines, you don't learn these before you learn Fox's basics, being controlling his speed, his aerials, and things like lasers and shine spikes. after this, you learn the most advanced things. There's no point saying wave shines are inconsistent when you don't have Fox's normals perfected.

and yes, it is your bad for Not reading the main post

 

[SinisterB]

I just want to go out on a limb and say there are about a million other technically advanced things a Ness could be working on other than this little Fire AT. It's cool, don't get me wrong, I still have yet to really set some time aside and devote a good chunk of training for it. But, comparing it to something like his DJ options which are clearly fundamental is a little silly. There is always more to improve upon. For the record, I'm still learning all of Ness' DJ options and keeping them consistent. There's so much he can do that's off the beaten path. If you explicitly meant DJC itself as in shortened aerials, there are still a numerous ways to apply them that you probably haven't even touched.

I wholeheartedly agree that someone who's interested in Ness should learn and feel him out as a character first before picking up something like Instant Fire. It'd be *** backwards the other way around. I'm just saying loosen up, all the guy said was that he was going to work on some other aspects (which you later said he should be doing, mind you) and you jumped off the wagon to seemingly attack him because what he said was "wrong".

You almost come off as a little elitist, when I'm sure that most of us including myself have just barely dipped our toes into the ocean of Ness' metagame. Anyways I like the Fire AT, stumbled across it a few times during my own playing and thought it was cool. Tried it out in Training once or twice, but similar to NZA, I worked on other parts of my game instead for different reasons. Mostly because I forgot about it soon after, what with all the other stuff I learned haha. I'm under the firm belief that every little thing can be important, no matter how minuscule or hard that thing may be. Puts me a little off track sometimes.

PS. I'll have a technical thread up to talk about Ness as a whole soon-ish, so that will be the place to discuss things of that nature NZA.

 

[The_NZA]

Seriously, again with the value judgements. You make this board toxic to post in.

While it is true DJC is "basic" and the various movement options Ness has at his disposal are based in quantity rather than in difficulty of execution, the options available with the insane ways Ness can move that are unique to him do require practice and for a lot of us Ness veterans who've been playing melee since 2001, the full jump djc dichotomy is huge in metagame development.

The reason why I shared that this was a hard technique was because its a god damn forum where you are supposed to share your experiences with one another. I'm sorry you found my post unhelpful and unapplicable to you--go ahead and ignore it. For others, it represents an example of public opinion weighing in on the difficulty of this technique. Seriously, if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. The only count you were right on in talking **** to me was telling me I was off topic. That's fair, I was because i misinterpreted the topic.

 

[GMaster171]

ok... srry i guess. Was being truthful and I guess I misunderstood what you meant to say.

Judging by the 3 offers, I'm guessing this came a little early in Ness' development. Its either this or people don't really enjoy helping lol (Or I haven't proven myself worthy of directing this project, I'v said a lot, but I haven't really shown anything back.)

I'll still try working on the PKF AT video, this is something I feel I can make my own judgments on its usage, but as for the rest, It'll be put on hold until later in the metagame.

Its cool, guess it was a little ambitious and early rofl

 

[Eagleye893]

They had this same tech in Brawl. It's not really useful b/c of variable timing depending on heights and just PK-Firing aerially/grounded is better and less technically stressing.

 

[The_NZA]

They had this same tech in Brawl. It's not really useful b/c of variable timing depending on heights and just PK-Firing aerially/grounded is better and less technically stressing.

I don't think its not useful but I do think its technically stressing for a small benefit. But if you land it, more power to you.

 

[SinisterB]

i actually think this really cool + useful

 

[noterday]

I tried practicing this a little and i noticed that the pk fire looks like it is half inside the stage instead of floating over it when you shoot it that way. It looks like you can hit people while they're grabbing the ledge because of this.

I 'm not sure if this is useful or not but it's still interesting to know about.

 

[choknater]

wow

definitely looks useful

that's amazing tech

i wonder if anyone can master it. i'll try it out next time i get the chance to play

 

[reslived]

this is actually possible in Brawl. has been discovered before. it is also known that PK Fire will hug the ground that you are casting it on. link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgUz9hpT3zs

no one ever mastered it for brawl xD

 

[Kayo]

this is actually possible in Brawl. has been discovered before. it is also known that PK Fire will hug the ground that you are casting it on. link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgUz9hpT3zs

no one ever mastered it for brawl xD

PK Fire didn't land cancel in Brawl so it wasn't worth it.

 

[Eagleye893]

^Now that you say this, I feel dumb. This could be pretty good, but probably would require some strict timing/setup/training to get consistent. Think of using pkfire on the ground but being able to grab or cover options that avoid the fire, or just stomping people who try to jump over the fire by being able to react instantly.