Nerf her or buff her?

[HiddenTiger]

In Melee, Zelda and Shiek were far too different in terms of ability to justify their being joined like they are. This is quite evident when you look at the tier list, which has the two at completely opposite ends, Zelda being towards the bottom while Sheik is one of the highest, despite the fact that they are, essentially, the same character. I think that for Brawl, assuming that both Zelda and Sheik return and the transformation mechanic remains the same, something needs to be done to bring the two together to achieve the symbiosis that they were originally trying to achieve. I think they should make it so that you can't play as just Sheik or just Zelda, but instead create a system that requires you to switch between them to be able to truly master the character.

So, my question is this: Should they nerf Sheik to match Zelda, or should Zelda be improved to Sheik's level? Personally, I want to see them go halfway on both, so that the character isn't severly over or under powered. Sheik would be nerfed a little, and Zelda would be buffed a little, and it would meet at the middle ground. Any thoughts?

 

[Captain Smashie]

Buff zelda, yes, nut dont nerf sheik. at all.

No character shoud be nerfed, ever. Just look at PAL. Slight nerfing = slightly less fun game

 

[zKillah]

Overall, I hope Brawl's characters will have more even abillities. I would like to see Zelda used for more than just recovery. I am hoping that most of the high tier chars are nerfed just a little bit, and the low tier chars a buffed just so the playing field is more even.

 

[Bakemonky]

Buff zelda, yes, nut dont nerf sheik. at all.

No character shoud be nerfed, ever. Just look at PAL. Slight nerfing = slightly less fun game

WHAT? Slight nerfing = unbelievably more fun game.

You may have meant to say, "lots of nerfing = slightly less fun game"

ALMOST ALL of the characters need to be tweaked. Some (Fox, Sheik, Ganon, Mewtwo, Ness) need COMPLETE overhauls.

Sheik has speed, no lag, insane 360 hitboxes, and powerful moves. Her only offset is that she is light. woopdeedoo.

Fox suffers from a similar problem. I hope, and this is just my opinion, that the all of the fast, no lag, quick hit characters all have the power on a majority of their moves significanlty lowered.

You should not have speed and strength. You should have to choose.

Zelda absolutely needs to be buffed. She has no speed, and lag on most of her moves. Since most of her moves are supposed to be magical, they need to be overhawled. They need more power, and they need to be trickier. I hope to God that in Brawl when I hit dtilt with Zelda that she will shoot some kind of arcane fireball at the ground, and not kick them with all <100 lbs of her frail princess body.

But whatever, it doesn't matter. This is the internet, and their are too many stupid people for the guys developing the game to take any of this seriously. They may look for inspirations, but they will not take whatever we say seriously. They will not bend every aspect of the game to fit the screaming fans opinions, because for every 100 posts saying that Fox needs to be nerfed, there are 100 posts of people giving reasons why he shouldnt be nerfed.

The only thing the creators and writers of Brawl will listen to from the fans is
-how many characters do you want in
-possibly what characters do you want in

Thats it.

 

[Mic_128]

No character shoud be nerfed, ever. Just look at PAL. Slight nerfing = slightly less fun game

That's funny, I'd say the oposite. Something about Sheik being unable to chainthrow without a huge amount of skill in NTSC (No offence Sheik players) Falco's spike being nerfed (I love playing NTSC Falco, but I'm glad he was nerfed in Pal) and Marth and Fox with their general nerfing, makes the game just that bit more balanced, and thusly more fun. I'm sensing you play one of the nerfed characters.

 

[McFox]

I've commented on this before, but I'll post again.

The problem with Zelda and Sheik is that they were really two separate characters. The IDEA is that you wrack up damage with Sheik, and then switch to Zelda to finish off your opponent. The problem with that was that Sheik was given some incredible knockback moves (Fair, for example), so there was no need to switch to Zelda at all. In addition to that, while the transformation time isn't REALLY long, it is long enough that you need to get your opponent fairly far away before even trying it.

So, I'm of the opinion that Sheik should have pretty much no knockback moves, only damage-inducing combo moves. Then, the transformation time should be near-instantaneous. This way, they can be played as a SINGLE character the way it was meant to be, and not two separate characters on the same character block.

 

[Bowserlick]

The Zelda/Sheik idea was excellent but horribly executed. Like McFox stated, it basically just created two different characters without compatibility with each other. Except now they each have one less move (the down B).

The purpose is let the character have speed and power in a different then Captain Falcon. The Captain balances both his advantages with a weak recovery and lack of projectiles. Zelda was suppose to be the power half and the shiek the side with speed. Zelda was basically made right. I think her recovery should be a little easier to use, and that instead of using her body parts to attack (like Bakemonky suggested) she should use magic.

Sheik should have next to no KO opputunites. She should be used for combos and needle damage. Then Zelda can be used for her devastating power attacks. Since Zelda is laggy and slow, the attacks have to be well timed or her light frame will be vulnerable.

In order for this to work the transformation needs to be fixed. I see two ways of doing this.
1. Instant transformation with no lag.
2. The transformation is an attack. Zelda's transformation could lead into a quick attack with no knockback and stun by Sheik and Sheik's transformation could lead into a slower, powerful attack by Zelda.

 

[Wallmaster]

As I read this thread, I was planning my reply, until I saw McFox's post. He nailed it. They were meant to work together, it's just a few things need to be changed.

 

[DarkFr0g]

Giving transformation no lag would practically give the character twice the number of moves every other character has.

 

[HiddenTiger]

That kind of was the point in making them a 2-in-one character in the first place.

 

[LostAddict]

I'd say go somewhere in between. Nerf Sheik a little, giving alot of her moves much less knockback, and then buff Zelda a little by giving her stronger moves. McFox pretty much got it all.

 

[mkmelee]

Well... Let's say Sheik isn't in Brawl...

Anyways, I would go with the nerf Shiek, and buff Zelda, but I hope on Zelda's part she gets some crazily cool, and totally new strategy inducing moves similar to Peach's floating and turnips, but probably very magic related. Seeing as how she wields a sword in one of the pictures from TP, I'm guessing her style may be similar to that of Ganondorf's.

That is realistically of course. On the other hand, it's obvious that everyone wants a moveset ripped off from Zelda's Adventure.

 

[Wallmaster]

I don't want Zelda to be anything like Peach. Zelda is more serious and realistic. If Zelda starts pulling turnips out of the ground then I'll be mad.

I would like Zelda's moveset to stay about the same, with some changes.

 

[mkmelee]

What I meant is that she should have a completely original playstyle, as Peach does, although a defensive but powerful style like Peach's would suit her well.

 

[Captain Smashie]

That's funny, I'd say the oposite. Something about Sheik being unable to chainthrow without a huge amount of skill in NTSC (No offence Sheik players) Falco's spike being nerfed (I love playing NTSC Falco, but I'm glad he was nerfed in Pal) and Marth and Fox with their general nerfing, makes the game just that bit more balanced, and thusly more fun. I'm sensing you play one of the nerfed characters.

Flaco isn't nerfed btw. If your timing's ok, he's exactly the same.


Ok, maybe the chainthrow, but I live in Pal. Nintendo have semi-nerfed marth, sheik and weakend fox. Aim? to make the game more balanced. result? Practically everone plays peach or falco. Nice one nintendo.

The reason this game is fairly balanced, and so much fun, is that there are 5 or 6 characters who are totally broken. Imaging if smash 64 picachu and kirby were in melee- you'd have two more tourney characters.
The only way to make the game both fair, and fun, is to have every character ridiculously overpowered. That way everyone is top tier; that is, everyone is broken, and so noone is broken.

I play falco.

 

[MetaKnight0]

Flaco isn't nerfed btw. If your timing's ok, he's exactly the same.


Ok, maybe the chainthrow, but I live in Pal. Nintendo have semi-nerfed marth, sheik and weakend fox. Aim? to make the game more balanced. result? Practically everone plays peach or falco. Nice one nintendo.

The reason this game is fairly balanced, and so much fun, is that there are 5 or 6 characters who are totally broken. Imaging if smash 64 picachu and kirby were in melee- you'd have two more tourney characters.
The only way to make the game both fair, and fun, is to have every character ridiculously overpowered. That way everyone is top tier; that is, everyone is broken, and so noone is broken.

I play falco.

This doesn't really make any good sense.

Giving every character something broken doesn't make the game fun. Games would devolve into who's broken tactic is better. If Falcon could suddenly do a guaranteed Falcon Punch on any character or if Jigglypuff could cancel her Rest or some other ridiculous stuff like that, the game doesn't get more deep. Suddenly the only way to beat a broken tactic is to use another broken tactic, and then everyone would do the same thing.

 

[Captain Smashie]

no... all the top tier already have some broken elements... fox has infinite combos, falco has unfair spam potential, marth has ridiculous range and priority, peach has the way- overpowered downsmash, ICs have broken grab combos and sheik's just sheik.

But, because they're all like this, it ends up fair.
And smash 64 pika and kirby should have been their same, overpowered selves in melee, because they'd be now be just as good as all those characters, instead of being unfairly rubbish.

 

[Cubelarooso]

The best way to nerf Shiek would be to make all his attacks set knockback, thus FORCING people to switch to Zelda to get kills.
I also agree that Zelda's attacks should be more magical, having incantaions and pretty effects and such.
The transformation should be sped up slightly, or freeze you in midair so you could escape offstage to transform.


Also, nerfing can be a very good thing when done correctly.
For example, I have no problem with what came of Pikachu, just problems with overpowered new character being unreasonably better.
With Kirby, however, they might as well have removed him completely, it'd increase his playability...

 

[Wiseguy]

This discussion is pointless. Shiek should not be nerfed, she should be cut - plain and simple.

Since Link is getting his Twilight Princess update, its only logical that the same will be done with Zelda. Since Sheik does not appear even once in Twilight Princess, she can no loger be Zelda's alter ego.

This is a chance to get rid of one of the most broken, overpowered characters in Melee and make room for worthier Zelda representatives. Might I recomend Midna?

 

[Mic_128]

no... all the top tier already have some broken elements... fox has infinite combos, falco has unfair spam potential, marth has ridiculous range and priority, peach has the way- overpowered downsmash, ICs have broken grab combos and sheik's just sheik.

But, because they're all like this, it ends up fair.

True, because Game and Watch has....Well Link has.....GAnnon can......oh look, it isn't fair. Not to mention that some of those charactrers have moves/abilities that are banned in tournaments (Peach's wallbombing, Foxes shoot and run, even IC's Wobbling is banned in some tournaments)

If things need to be banned, then no, it's not fair.

 

[bluebomber22]

no... all the top tier already have some broken elements... fox has infinite combos, falco has unfair spam potential, marth has ridiculous range and priority, peach has the way- overpowered downsmash, ICs have broken grab combos and sheik's just sheik.

even if what you just said was true, that's only 6 balanced characters out of about what 25 characters? that's terrible

 

[Kirye]

This discussion is pointless. Shiek should not be nerfed, she should be cut - plain and simple.

Since Link is getting his Twilight Princess update, its only logical that the same will be done with Zelda. Since Sheik does not appear even once in Twilight Princess, she can no loger be Zelda's alter ego.

This is a chance to get rid of one of the most broken, overpowered characters in Melee and make room for worthier Zelda representatives. Might I recomend Midna?

Sheik shouldn't be cut, just a bit nerfed.

Just because Link got updated to his TP look doesn't mean "OMG THEY SHOULD ALL BE TWILIGHTED!!". I'm tired of hearing that stupid *** reason "Oh, Sheik wasn't in Twilight Princess", big deal? Like Mewtwo is in any of the new Pokemon games, and he probably won't get removed.

And no, you may not recommend Midna. Not only has she not made an impact upon the Zelda franchise like Sheik did in OoT, she's just an imp, who'll probably never make it into another Zelda game as any important character again. Sheik is Zeldas alter ego, even if she hasn't appeared in any recent Zelda games.

 

[Lord_Deathborne]

This is, of course, provided that Sheik, or even Zelda for that matter (despite a 99% chance of returning...), are in the game in the first place... Nothing is confirmed about any returning characters other that those we already know of...

 

[Mic_128]

Yeah, we kinda knew that.

 

[Lord_Deathborne]

^^ I'll admit that I have a gift for stating the obvious...

Still... doesn't this discussion belong in one of the dozen or so Sheik and/or Zelda threads already started?

 

[Blackshadow]

And no, you may not recommend Midna. Not only has she not made an impact upon the Zelda franchise like Sheik did in OoT, she's just an imp, who'll probably never make it into another Zelda game as any important character again. Sheik is Zeldas alter ego, even if she hasn't appeared in any recent Zelda games.

I don't see how Sheik made that much impact on the Zelda series, she isn't even a seperate character. She is an alter ego. She is the same person as Zelda, just in disguise. Sheik was a part of the storyline, while Midna on the other hand WAS the storyline. The game was focused more on Midna than Link, IMO.

Being an imp has nothing to do with whether she should be in Brawl or not. I mean, really, just a giant electric mouse or a tie wearing monkey strike to you as "Fighting game potential"?

Shiek was Zelda's alter ego for one game. If she were a very important character why haven't we seen Zelda disguised as Shiek?

Midna made a very big impact on the Zelda community, much moreso than Sheik ever did.


So yes, I say that he can recommend Midna

EDIT Sorry if that comes off as harsh or anything, I just naturally type aggressively.

 

[xianfeng]

Buff Zelda and put her in her TP outfit and axe Sheik.

 

[Wiseguy]

I don't see how Sheik made that much impact on the Zelda series, she isn't even a seperate character. She is an alter ego. She is the same person as Zelda, just in disguise. Sheik was a part of the storyline, while Midna on the other hand WAS the storyline. The game was focused more on Midna than Link, IMO.

Being an imp has nothing to do with whether she should be in Brawl or not. I mean, really, just a giant electric mouse or a tie wearing monkey strike to you as "Fighting game potential"?

Shiek was Zelda's alter ego for one game. If she were a very important character why haven't we seen Zelda disguised as Shiek?

Midna made a very big impact on the Zelda community, much moreso than Sheik ever did.


So yes, I say that he can recommend Midna

EDIT Sorry if that comes off as harsh or anything, I just naturally type aggressively.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[El HP]

To hell with sheik ZSS FTW.

 

[Kirye]

Ah, but blackshadow, Sheik IS Zelda. Not only is it not a waste of a character spot, it wouldn't be that hard to move her from the Melee game to Brawl. Since Melee and OoT came out, Sheik has sort of depicted Zelda's other self. You say Sheik wasn't as important to the story as Midna, but Sheik was more well liked. The mysterious ninja who appeared and helped out before every temple, to find out later that it was actually Zelda, I think that's pretty big.

Also, if she was that unimportant, why'd they add her in Melee in the first place? To complete Zelda? Probably, so how would removing Sheik make it better? Everyone states that Zelda would get her TP rapier and learn swordplay, and also have skills that were used when

Spoiler

Ganon was controlling her

(The game's been out for 5 months, it's not a spoiler anymore, so don't say it.), but I can't see it.

That's what differentiates Sheik from Midna. Sheik WAS Zelda, Midna was just some character semi-important to the story, and as i've stated before, you might as well add the King of Red Lions in the game cause he held about the same amount of importance as Midna did, I mean you did ride him about 2/3rds of the game, saved you from Ganondorf at the end, and was the one who made Link go through most of that in the first place.

Also, you're getting ahead of yourself, what makes you think Midna will ever appear again? I say it's just a waste of a character slot for an already well represented franchise, but that's just me.

I don't care if you think it's safe, there's still the rules about TP spoilers. A lot of people still haven't had the chance to play it, with Wii's selling so fast.

 

[Zarasai]

there is another solution thast nobody seems to have mentioned
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Axe them both.

 

[Wiseguy]

Ah, but blackshadow, Sheik IS Zelda. Not only is it not a waste of a character spot, it wouldn't be that hard to move her from the Melee game to Brawl. Since Melee and OoT came out, Sheik has sort of depicted Zelda's other self. You say Sheik wasn't as important to the story as Midna, but Sheik was more well liked. The mysterious ninja who appeared and helped out before every temple, to find out later that it was actually Zelda, I think that's pretty big.

Also, if she was that unimportant, why'd they add her in Melee in the first place? To complete Zelda? Probably, so how would removing Sheik make it better? Everyone states that Zelda would get her TP rapier and learn swordplay, and also have skills that were used when Ganon was controlling her (The game's been out for 5 months, it's not a spoiler anymore, so don't say it.), but I can't see it.

That's what differentiates Sheik from Midna. Sheik WAS Zelda, Midna was just some character semi-important to the story, and as i've stated before, you might as well add the King of Red Lions in the game cause he held about the same amount of importance as Midna did, I mean you did ride him about 2/3rds of the game, saved you from Ganondorf at the end, and was the one who made Link go through most of that in the first place.

Also, you're getting ahead of yourself, what makes you think Midna will ever appear again? I say it's just a waste of a character slot for an already well represented franchise, but that's just me.

The Smash Bors. series is not a retirement home for outdated charcaters who are no longer appearing their respective series. All the Zelda charcaters should appear as they did in their most recent game appearances (ex: Young Link should appear as he did in Wind Waker while Link, Zelda and Ganondorf should be given a Twilight Princess makover.)

You may not like Midna, but there is no getting around the fact that of all the characters in TP she was the most influential to the story line. That makes her more deserving than Sheik, who hasn't appeared in a single Zelda game since OoT.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I've debated against Kirye alot about Sheik, so I won't repeat myself anymore. There are more reasons for Sheik to go than to stay in my opinion and so it would be the best to cut her.

 

[Bowserlick]

Remember Sheik is a Zelda move, so keeping that in mind she could return even if the princess is given her Twilight Princess look. Just like Mario can still use his fireballs and cape though they might not be in Mario Galaxy.

With that said I see only two paths that Sheik can take in Brawl:

1. Be executed properly. That means she should have no moves with KO potential except at really high percentages. Her purpose should be similar to Fox's laser. Tack on damage. Although this might upset people who main as her, this route was her intended purpose.

2. Be axed. This is what I think is going to happen based on the introduction of Zamus (who just happens to be another alter ego of a female fighter who wears tight blue outfits, carries a whip, and uses quick attacks).

 

[Cubelarooso]

This is getting dangerously off-topic. It's supposed to be about how to balance Zelda/Shiek, not whether or not Shiek should return. But, just to add my 2¢, I think and wish that all the Zelda characters will be TP style, but just because Shiek wasn't in TP doesn't mean they can't MAKE a TP outfit for him.


Upon further thought, I've come up with two possible problems with my idea:

1. The possibility for infinites. This would most likely be impracticably difficult to pull off and only useable on certain characters/stages, but what if they're not? Plus, even if they were, they're still there, and infinites ANYWHERE are bad.
This problem could be prevented (at least the easy ones, the boring of gamers may lead to unusable discoveries) through careful analyzing and test-playing.

2. Though this may balance tournament play, it gives no reason to use Zelda during casual item/free-for-all play, which is who Ninetndo aims at. Items/others give Shiek killing power (though counteractive during Time) (this could also make Shiek an awesome partner in Team). Meanwhile, the chaos would make finding a safe spot to transform difficult (and something/one will probably have taken your kill by that time), and make Zelda be unable to get in attacks anyway due to her slowness.
This'd be a bit more difficult to solve. They could inhibit Shiek's item abilities (more set knockback? ranger-esque encumberment?) and ability to deal with crowds, and/or allow Zelda to use items as spell components/focuses (allowing cool item-specific effects to throws and attacks using said item) or making her attacks great for attacking multiple people. They could also increase the difference between their ability to be killed, prompting people to Zeldize at higher percentages.

This may seem like a lot of work for a single character, but after how broken Shiek was in Melee, he deserves proper balancing.
Or just pull a Kirby and make him total crap...

 

[Wilhelmsan]

Everyone states that Zelda would get her TP rapier and learn swordplay, and also have skills that were used when

Spoiler

Ganon was controlling her

(The game's been out for 5 months, it's not a spoiler anymore, so don't say it.), but I can't see it.

That's what differentiates Sheik from Midna. Sheik WAS Zelda, Midna was just some character semi-important to the story, and as i've stated before, you might as well add the King of Red Lions in the game cause he held about the same amount of importance as Midna did, I mean you did ride him about 2/3rds of the game, saved you from Ganondorf at the end, and was the one who made Link go through most of that in the first place.

Way to go, spoiled a pretty large section of the game for me.