Needles mess up l-cancel lag

[darkatma]

Awesome. Did a search, apparently no one has speculated on this yet.

As most of us know, needles can be used in the air to shoot at an angle towards the opponents. The needles that don't hit the opponent either hit the ground or go past the stage depending on where you're shooting them from.

Now, when needles hit the ground, they STAY ON THE GROUND FOR A FEW SECONDS.
hold that fact for now

Sheik's needles cancel out other projectiles because they act as a target that the projectiles hit upon impact. That's why bombs explode upon contact(as opposed to being deflected at an angle like what happens when a boomerang hits a bomb), why boomerangs return, and why missiles and charge shots are canceled. Basically, sheik's needles are OBJECTs in the game, almost like items, except barely visible.

Now.. the thing i found out is, because needles stay on the ground for quite a while, they can still be hit. This is useful especially against opponents with good dairs that absolutely NEED to be l-canceled (ie: falco, fox, falcon, ganon). The needles seem to act as a second obstacle that the character hits, thus changing the lag time quite a bit before the proper l-cancel time. Sometimes I've shot a few needles on the ground and stood over them while an unsuspecting falco dairs in a pillar, causing the falco to l-cancel improperly, leading to a shield grab. This works much like in teams when an opponent dairs through 2 opponents, he has a different landing time, and a different l-cancel timing. And because needles are right above the floor, it is hard to get the timing for l-canceling right.

This could be a great tactic for stopping pillar. I'm not sure how long the needles are out, but it seems like a nice idea that no-one has really explored yet.

Discuss

 

[Digital Watches]

Just tested this after reading your thread, and ****. That's pretty cool. Probably not game-breaking... but I love little tricks like this. Very awesome discovery.

 

[Team Giza]

... wait a minute... this wasnt already known? OH SNAP!

 

[darkatma]

I think the lag was already known, but no one has discussed it yet. I wanna discuss if it has any particular uses.

 

[Sheik_the_Geek]

I havent timed it...but the needles seem to stay on the ground for no longer 2 sec. probably less.

 

[Team Giza]

I think the lag was already known, but no one has discussed it yet. I wanna discuss if it has any particular uses.

It makes certain attacks stay out logger (meaning the hit box part of the attack, not just lag). Namely Marth's F-smash, Ganondorf's dair and fair... and probably many more... I have accidently used this in teams.

 

[Lexaeus]

It's interesting, but there's no way you'll get the time to set up like that in a real match against good people. Even if you do try to set up, you'll just get spammed while standing there, or they'll act like they're going to approach but not, waiting for the needles to go away and not giving you enough space to needle more.

 

[darkatma]

It's interesting, but there's no way you'll get the time to set up like that in a real match against good people. Even if you do try to set up, you'll just get spammed while standing there, or they'll act like they're going to approach but not, waiting for the needles to go away and not giving you enough space to needle more.

Setting up is quite simple, since sheik's lag cancels upon landing. especially with platforms, this would be quite easy to set up.

I'd sure you could get spammed while standing there, which could happen, but there's still some uses.

situation A: Your opponent(a falco) knows the needle tactic, and stays away to spam:
This creates a mindset that the opponent must follow, much like how jiggly's uthrow to rest combo has ingrained in people's heads to always DI left or right. It adds a level to predictability: If your opponent always spams to avoid the tactic, then you could always use the time to regroup and rethink your strats. Either this, or your opponent will approach without the dair, which may be much better for countering their approach.

situation B: Your opponent(still falco) doesnt know about the needle tactic, so he approaches with a laser to dair. He missed the l-cancel and gets shield grabbed and proceeds to get comboed out of grab.

The point of the tactic is to limit the opponent's approaches, allowing the sheik to better predict the approaching player's attacks and patterns.

So yes, this could be useful in either situation of battle, much like King's nair-rest approach, where if you don't know about it, you get rested, and if you do, then you have to incorporate it into your mindset, thus allowing a deeper level of play.


Edit: SDM's frame data says that needles last 30 frames, which is half a second. Land lag is 4 seconds, so there seems to be only a small window of opportunity. However, every frame counts in a pillar, so I'm gonna see if i can incorporate this into my game

 

[wuthefwasthat]

sounds really cool
and painfully hard to set up

all that just to get a missed L-cancel

but then, sometimes an L-cancel wins the game

 

[darkatma]

Well you always wanna keep shiek's options open