Need Lucas gurus

[Malithis]

Hey everyone,

I am currently practicing and looking at guides for both lucas and peach. Peach i have some experience with, just learning tech i wasn't introduced to until recently. Lucas has blown me away recently and i'd really like to take him up as a main or secondary along with peach. The issue here is i would like to compete in a monthly next week and i doubt i could get lucas up to snuff before it is too late. As the great tobias funke once said "i'm afraid i've prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so i'm afraid i have somewhat of a mess on my hands." If anyone has great videos, guides i may not have found from active forums or wish to play online/teach all help would be appreciated. It would be awesome if i could play this epic character next week.

 

[Mister the Wizard]

I've only gone to a couple tournaments and I'm not a very good player in general, but as far as knowledge I'm pretty confident I know just about everything concerning Lucas. It would probably be difficult to give you a link to EVERYTHING in this one post, but I could easily help you out and point you to specific stuff you have questions about. Heck I could even tell you myself. In conclusion, sure I'll show you some stuff The best recommendation I could give you is to hang out on this character forum and just spend a lot of time reading and asking questions. Also watch Pink Fresh games on vgbootcamp, just watching how he plays helps you learn a lot.

 

[Malithis]

I've only gone to a couple tournaments and I'm not a very good player in general, but as far as knowledge I'm pretty confident I know just about everything concerning Lucas. It would probably be difficult to give you a link to EVERYTHING in this one post, but I could easily help you out and point you to specific stuff you have questions about. Heck I could even tell you myself. In conclusion, sure I'll show you some stuff The best recommendation I could give you is to hang out on this character forum and just spend a lot of time reading and asking questions. Also watch Pink Fresh games on vgbootcamp, just watching how he plays helps you learn a lot.

Thanks, i was wondering what sort of tech is important for lucas players? I heard of djc but still need to figure out what that is, he seems good at dash dancing but apart from that not sure what techniques are good to learn with him.

 

[Mister the Wizard]

Ok. So. DJC A.K.A Double Jump Cancel is what happens when you use an aerial to cancel out of a double jump. This technique is exclusive to Lucas, Ness, Peach, Yoshi (I think) and MewTwo. To do it you double jump and in the next few frames input an aerial which cancels the double jump and redirects your momentum. This is useful because when utilized properly it lets you be EXTREMELY precise with your aerials to get sweetspots and combos. To do it you need to have tap jump on. The inputs go sorta like this: Press x/y to jump>press the grey analog up for the double jump> While pressing the analog up move your right thumb to the C-stick and input the aerial you want as soon as you press up>depending on where you are you can fastfall/l cancel. Those inputs are for a grounded one. If you are already in the air and just want to input a precise aerial just simply press up> then aerial. The whole technique is just pressing up on the analog then inputting your aerial immediately after. The rest is just deciding when to use it. I use it the most for edge gaurding. I cancel the double jump to get a sweetspot F-air or B-air. Here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z3EJYfHTro
PS: the video is pretty fast paced, I'd recommend pausing it to read the text then watch the clip so you don't miss anything.
Hope I helped. If you have anymore questions feel free to ask.

 

[Malithis]

Ok. So. DJC A.K.A Double Jump Cancel is what happens when you use an aerial to cancel out of a double jump. This technique is exclusive to Lucas, Ness, Peach, Yoshi (I think) and MewTwo. To do it you double jump and in the next few frames input an aerial which cancels the double jump and redirects your momentum. This is useful because when utilized properly it lets you be EXTREMELY precise with your aerials to get sweetspots and combos. To do it you need to have tap jump on. The inputs go sorta like this: Press x/y to jump>press the grey analog up for the double jump> While pressing the analog up move your right thumb to the C-stick and input the aerial you want as soon as you press up>depending on where you are you can fastfall/l cancel. Those inputs are for a grounded one. If you are already in the air and just want to input a precise aerial just simply press up> then aerial. The whole technique is just pressing up on the analog then inputting your aerial immediately after. The rest is just deciding when to use it. I use it the most for edge gaurding. I cancel the double jump to get a sweetspot F-air or B-air. Here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z3EJYfHTro
PS: the video is pretty fast paced, I'd recommend pausing it to read the text then watch the clip so you don't miss anything.
Hope I helped. If you have anymore questions feel free to ask.

Thank you very much, that was very in depth and I'm really glad you put in the time to help me. I will look into this after my matches with my friend

 

[Clade]

To do it you need to have tap jump on..

I play without tap jump and I have no problems

 

[Mister the Wizard]

Thank you very much, that was very in depth and I'm really glad you put in the time to help me. I will look into this after my matches with my friend

Glad I could help! If you have any other questions feel free to ask

 

[Mister the Wizard]

I play without tap jump and I have no problems

Yeah you can do it without tap jump, it's just harder in general imo.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I play without tap jump and I have no problems

Using Tap Jump allows you to do retreating DJC Fairs (X/Y > Up > Back > Forward on C-stick) I find it let's you do them in succession more quickly as well. 8adge's video explains it a lot better than I could, haha...

 

[Mister the Wizard]

Using Tap Jump allows you to do retreating DJC Fairs (X/Y > Up > Back > Forward on C-stick) I find it let's you do them in succession more quickly as well. 8adge's video explains it a lot better than I could, haha...

Oh yeah I forgot about that. You pretty much have to have tap jump to influence your direction while doing it. Thanks yars!

 

[Mister the Wizard]

@ M Malithis Another simple but important tech to know is that you can tether out of air dodge. Makes recovering a lot easier. Any other tech questions?

 

[LordOfThePies]

I agree with all of the above. Also learn how to wavedash out of his magnet. Magnet is like a shine (it's jump cancelable, comes out on frame 4, sets up combos, etc). Being able waveshine (I'm just gonna say this instead of "wavedash out of magnet") is important for some of his combos. You can get Nairs or Dairs at lower percents, go straight into Bair, grab if they're low enough percent, etc. PKF is really important for approaching, and helps set up combos from farther away because it's loaded with hitstun. Being able to DJC PKF is just awesome lol. DACUS is also important to learn, since he slides so goddamn far and you can combo it off a PKF from max range, just about. There's a lot of other stuff, but those are just some good basic things. Oh and up-throw kills. It's pretty great lol.

P.s. That blue on black is really hard on the eyes. Just saiyan.

 

[imrai]

I agree with all of the above. Also learn how to wavedash out of his magnet. Magnet is like a shine (it's jump cancelable, comes out on frame 4, sets up combos, etc). Being able waveshine (I'm just gonna say this instead of "wavedash out of magnet") is important for some of his combos. You can get Nairs or Dairs at lower percents, go straight into Bair, grab if they're low enough percent, etc. PKF is really important for approaching, and helps set up combos from farther away because it's loaded with hitstun. Being able to DJC PKF is just awesome lol. DACUS is also important to learn, since he slides so goddamn far and you can combo it off a PKF from max range, just about. There's a lot of other stuff, but those are just some good basic things. Oh and up-throw kills. It's pretty great lol.

P.s. That blue on black is really hard on the eyes. Just saiyan.

Does JC upsmash work in PM (and with lucas specifically)? I already have the timing down from Melee so a slight adjustment would be easier for me than learning to DACUS right away. I know I need to learn DACUS too, I just think focusing on my waveshine to aerial consistency is more important at the moment (and making my DJCs safer and learning to DJC PKF). DACUS gives you more momentum than JC Upsmash, right? And what hand motion do you personally use for DJC PKF, I'm having a bit of difficulty with it. I know it's just technically difficult so there's probably not just a simple hand placement trick to it, but I'm looking for a second opinion anyway.


Also, since I'm here, some advice from another beginner-intermediate lucas player.

-DJC is very unsafe when you are likely to be hit, lucas' recovery can be difficult to use so alternate this and SHFFL and only use DJC when the benefit outweighs the risk (something you'll learn with time)
-Shining mid-air to stall momentum or allow yourself time to change direction with your second jump or turn around in shine and double jump out into a waveland backwards onto a platform to slide off it and then Bair someone is useful. This sounds complicated, but this concept is a super huge part of lucas' gameplay in my opinion, and if you can master this very jukey stop and go style of controlling your momentum to increase precision and unpredictability, you will be a force to be reckoned with; this is also useful for juking during recovery or to break combos; so many people have combos that you can just shine out of; a lot of times if I lose myself in the combo and can't out DI i'll just spam shine and pop out. it's awful but it works sometimes.
-Don't spam aerials too much, as good as it can feel; sometimes projectiles and grabs are the best solution
-When recovering, if you get on the very edge of the stage (as in, on stage, not grabbing the ledge itself) waveshine -> bair and b.throw -> bair are going to make people have a sad freakin day. shine is crucial in taking the center stage advantage as it pulls them through you and over you, giving you all the options and them... a lot of hitstun.

 

[LordOfThePies]

Ye

Does JC upsmash work in PM (and with lucas specifically)? I already have the timing down from Melee so a slight adjustment would be easier for me than learning to DACUS right away. I know I need to learn DACUS too, I just think focusing on my waveshine to aerial consistency is more important at the moment (and making my DJCs safer and learning to DJC PKF). DACUS gives you more momentum than JC Upsmash, right? And what hand motion do you personally use for DJC PKF, I'm having a bit of difficulty with it. I know it's just technically difficult so there's probably not just a simple hand placement trick to it, but I'm looking for a second opinion anyway.


Also, since I'm here, some advice from another beginner-intermediate lucas player.

-DJC is very unsafe when you are likely to be hit, lucas' recovery can be difficult to use so alternate this and SHFFL and only use DJC when the benefit outweighs the risk (something you'll learn with time)
-Shining mid-air to stall momentum or allow yourself time to change direction with your second jump or turn around in shine and double jump out into a waveland backwards onto a platform to slide off it and then Bair someone is useful. This sounds complicated, but this concept is a super huge part of lucas' gameplay in my opinion, and if you can master this very jukey stop and go style of controlling your momentum to increase precision and unpredictability, you will be a force to be reckoned with
-Don't spam aerials too much, as good as it can feel; sometimes projectiles and grabs are the best solution
-When recovering, if you get on the very edge of the stage (as in, on stage, not grabbing the ledge itself) waveshine -> bair and b.throw -> bair are going to make people have a sad freakin day

Yeah JC upsmash works, although it's not always needed since you can upsmash out of a run automagically. And for DJC PKF some people say to use tap jump like normal, but I find that pretty awkward. I just hit Y twice very quickly and lightly. It took practice to not flub it up, but it works better than tapping imo. Use whatever method works best for you lol. Oh and yeah DACUS gives a significantly greater slide than JC upsmash.

 

[imrai]

Ye

Yeah JC upsmash works, although it's not always needed since you can upsmash out of a run automagically. And for DJC PKF some people say to use tap jump like normal, but I find that pretty awkward. I just hit Y twice very quickly and lightly. It took practice to not flub it up, but it works better than tapping imo. Use whatever method works best for you lol. Oh and yeah DACUS gives a significantly greater slide than JC upsmash.

After learning to Drillshine -> thunders in melee, DJC PKF and DACUS can't be that bad. Thank god I decided to play fox first when starting melee... I would've been so screwed trying to start playing lucas. I do actually think though that he's more technical than Fox at the top-end. His jump -> shine -> double jump waveland options make his movement game like, dumb, dumb technical if you want optimal play. It's kind of exciting though... Because this game is so much less figured out. So much room for innovation.
199X or bust.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Nah, Lucas is definitely more technical of a character than Fox. He has a lot of similar things but also a DJC and DACUS to go with it.

 

[imrai]

Nah, Lucas is definitely more technical of a character than Fox. He has a lot of similar things but also a DJC and DACUS to go with it.

The only thing that makes me want to say that he isn't as technical is that he's in an engine that requires less precision and gets easier shine followups. Other than that, I agree. I think melee Fox probably takes the cake for APM count though, unless the Lucas player is just doing empty spam.

 

[NeonApophis]

I think melee Fox probably takes the cake for APM count though, unless the Lucas player is just doing empty spam.

Nope.

 

[Mister the Wizard]

While we're all discussing Lucas in general, what's everyone's opinions on his tilts? Imrai said

-Don't spam aerials too much, as good as it can feel; sometimes projectiles and grabs are the best solution

You say to go into ground game and just use grabs and projectiles, but are any of his tilts more viable? I feel like f-tilt and d-tilt are pretty mediocre and u-tilt is ok. Idk just kind of curious what everyone thinks.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

U-tilt is good mid-combo to raise your opponent more vertically for a better D-air/U-air followup. D-tilt goes into a few things, FSmash depending on the wait, aerials most of the time, grabs if you wanted.

 

[imrai]

While we're all discussing Lucas in general, what's everyone's opinions on his tilts? Imrai said



You say to go into ground game and just use grabs and projectiles, but are any of his tilts more viable? I feel like f-tilt and d-tilt are pretty mediocre and u-tilt is ok. Idk just kind of curious what everyone thinks.

I feel like your offensive ground game is mostly going to be limited to his grabs, dash attack, jab (as funny as that sounds), smashes (on hard reads and to punish dumb approaches), and maybe even PK thunder. his u tilt is good for sure, but not worth approaching from the ground for. when i said not to spam aerials, that was very literal. i see a lot of lucas players go into aerial spam mode (and I'm just as guilty sometimes) and that is a very bad idea. they feel really safe because the aerials are fast and the hitboxes are good (plus you can cover them with a shine which hits outside your hurtbox and can be turned for a few frames at startup, which is very important) but you telegraph so hard by doing that, that it's very unsafe. i don't mean avoid using them. i just mean mix it up, and use them properly. you're going to be using them a lot for sure. you should be, if things are going correctly.

 

[Mister the Wizard]

I feel like your offensive ground game is mostly going to be limited to his grabs, dash attack, jab (as funny as that sounds), smashes (on hard reads and to punish dumb approaches), and maybe even PK thunder. his u tilt is good for sure, but not worth approaching from the ground for. when i said not to spam aerials, that was very literal. i see a lot of lucas players go into aerial spam mode (and I'm just as guilty sometimes) and that is a very bad idea. they feel really safe because the aerials are fast and the hitboxes are good (plus you can cover them with a shine which hits outside your hurtbox and can be turned for a few frames at startup, which is very important) but you telegraph so hard by doing that, that it's very unsafe. i don't mean avoid using them. i just mean mix it up, and use them properly. you're going to be using them a lot for sure. you should be, if things are going correctly.

Right, I agree with you. Yeah I was just referencing your post because it made me think "what is lucas's ground game?" Not tryna diss you or anything obviously. Thanks for the help, I was originally the Guru for Malithis but now I'm learning

 

[RunawayPanda]

Well this looks like the place to go since I wasn't expecting to be a Lucas main in PM... BUUTTT it happened so I have a quick question...
I'm going to my first pm event and what are just some stages that Lucas thrives on and stages he should avoid (let's just pretend I'm an average Lucas player since preference could play into this)

 

[Mister the Wizard]

Well this looks like the place to go since I wasn't expecting to be a Lucas main in PM... BUUTTT it happened so I have a quick question...
I'm going to my first pm event and what are just some stages that Lucas thrives on and stages he should avoid (let's just pretend I'm an average Lucas player since preference could play into this)

Lucas is really good on FD, anywhere with low ceilings, and lots of platforms. So I would say some good stages are FD, Battlefield, WarioWare, PS2. I can't really think of any BAD stages for Lucas. Don't quote me on this though, I'm not the best at stage selection, these are just personal preferences. Normally I just go to whatever wasn't banned, because since there's four I like 1 will always be available.

 

[RunawayPanda]

Lucas is really good on FD, anywhere with low ceilings, and lots of platforms. So I would say some good stages are FD, Battlefield, WarioWare, PS2. I can't really think of any BAD stages for Lucas. Don't quote me on this though, I'm not the best at stage selection, these are just personal preferences. Normally I just go to whatever wasn't banned, because since there's four I like 1 will always be available.

Cool thanks, I actually really like all those stages except for maybe WarioWare

 

[Mister the Wizard]

Cool thanks, I actually really like all those stages except for maybe WarioWare

I would say that Warioware is probably the least favorable. The only good thing about it is that up throw kills at like 20 xD

 

[Sumodude-S51]

I find Warioware to be a difficult stage against sword characters, especially Link. Conversely, while I don't usually choose this stage against most characters, I find Dreamland to work more in my favor against Link.

 

[Spice]

Nope.

Do you feel like it is actually Lucas?

 

[NeonApophis]

Do you feel like it is actually Lucas?

Yes.