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Need help with the basics

Ryusiodo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
182
Location
Miramar/Gainesville, Florida
So far while using Marth I can't seem to get the short hop down. It seems like I really have to try to do it very quickly and concentrate on it to do a perfect short hop. Even then I put so much concentration on just SH that I forget to FF and L-Cancel. =.= Is it easier to short hop by sliding over the x or y button, or easier to just press it really quickly? Is it more about developing muscle memory and reflexes? If it is that might be a problem since I got this game a week ago and I'm leaving for vacation in another week. So anyways, any advice?
 

balladechina212

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 28, 2006
Messages
680
Location
Chicago, IL
It's not necessary to slide fingers for short hopping; just tap it lightly. Try doing it with Fox or Sheik, because if you can short hop with those two, you will easily do it with Marth.
 

Ryusiodo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
182
Location
Miramar/Gainesville, Florida
Fox and Sheik are so much harder...but I guess if I can SH with them then I should be able to do it with anybody. I'm still a tad confused that I can SH with Falco so much more fluenty even though I only have like one less frame to release the button with Marth.
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
4,126
Location
Rochester, NY
Well, actually I've seen a lot of people slide their fingers off X and Y, but I just tap it very lightly. Remember, it's not how hard you press the button, it's how fast, so theoretically you could press it down as hard as you could, as long as you release it very fast. I actually learned to shorthop with Marth. Basically, I spent like 20 hours just sitting at my house practicing SH'ing and shffling, so it's just gonna take a while, that's all. And, one more thing.

Don't think that when you can ShortHop and Wavedash, your automatically going to beat your friends. This is a common misperception. Yes, they are powerful techniques, but you need to know when to apply them, y'know?
 

Salaad

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
936
Location
Irvine, CA
^^^ Lol, that's what I thought at first, but I started learning a lot more things and now I Pwn my friends. xD

I slide my Finger over the X to SH, just easier for me I guess. SHFFLing will take awhile to learn, don't give up.
 

Only Hope

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
15
Location
Sorrow
Learn to just slide your finger over for now. After u can short hop fast fall easily, start shffl'ing, you'll get it, it just takes practice. What i do is slide my finger from the X button onto the A button, then i choose the direction, whether you want to nair or fair. Nair starts great combos at low damage with Marth.
 

Fyacin_the_Deadeyed

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
49
I just practice short hopping over and over again, with out any high jumps in between, I think I'm up to over 30 in a row now. Also with the fastfall for me it seem slike the best place to press down is when his hand just starts moving.
 

Andrew Ott

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 25, 2005
Messages
397
Location
Herndon, VA
Sliding your finger is good for SHFFLs and double lasers and stuff, but if you use the C-stick, tapping is better.

Also, you can press your L-cancel button and down almost at the same time for SHFFLs.
 

Ryusiodo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
182
Location
Miramar/Gainesville, Florida
Wow a lot of replies so far. So far I've spent about 30 or so hours just practicing between Falco and Marth. I'm favoring Marth so far for his "ranged" melee attacks. Plus with Marth you can use mindgames instead of learning crazy tech skill and breaking your controllers constantly. >_> I should probably just stick with Marth for now I guess since Falco might mess up my timing even though I can do his short hops easily. IMO Shffling takes place before Wavedashing for now..
 

Sako

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
1
Practice shorthops where theres an area your character can reach by jumping, but cant by shorthopping.
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
I prefer tapping the X button to shorthop, but maybe that's just me. I think it's actually a lot easier to shorthop with Falco. It has to do with jump speeds. Marth leaves the ground on the fifth frame after the initial input for jumping, so you have that much time to release the button. Fox and Sheik have... two, I think. That's why they're harder to shorthop with.
 

Ryusiodo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
182
Location
Miramar/Gainesville, Florida
I just got a whole lot more consistent with short hopping. =) The whole not how light or hard you press the button helped a lot. I just needed to realize that it has more to do with quick button pressing and releasing then trying to do it ever so lightly. I'm getting very fair happy while short hopping now. ^_^So what's next? Shffling or Wavedashing? Wavedashing isn't exactly hard for me...but a lot of times I fail to do it consistently. This is especially true when I'm on a map with slopes and other obstacles.
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
4,126
Location
Rochester, NY
Shffling next. L cancelling is ESSENTIAL. At the very least, learn how to L cancel into a spotdodge, so at least you can avoid shieldgrabs.
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
Agreed. Wavedashing is nice, but it's not as essential as shffl'ing.

Actually. I only wavedash to change spacing and to edgehog...
 

Ryusiodo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
182
Location
Miramar/Gainesville, Florida
Actually I still might need to practice SH a bit more. I may be able to do it with no pressure but when playing someone I still might mess up. Either way, Shffling is definitely next on my list. Is there an easy way to tell if you have L-Canceled? I mean all of Marth's aerials have relatively little lag aside from his Dair. Do I have to try to Shffl multiple aerials in a row to tell or something? On another topic, is chaingrabbing hard? Exactly what is involved in it after 2-3 knees to the opponent before doing an up/forward throw?
 

ArcNatural

Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
2,964
Location
Boston, MA
You can dash immediately if you l-cancel Marth's upair, nair, or fair. You can't do this if you don't l-cancel. Chain-grabbing is as hard as your opponent makes it to be. The actual execution is easy, just JC grabbing for the most part. No DI can cause you to have to pivot grab or uptilt on fast fallers such as falco and fox. But other than that it's just grab upthrow follow DI JC grab.
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
I consider that space changing.

...okay, well, in that light I use it a lot. Forget what I said :p

EDIT: Oops, didn't see the second page.

It's actually fairly noticeable when you L-cancel versus not. The only thing that might throw you off is the nair's auto-cancel, which is oh-so-sweet.
 

Fyacin_the_Deadeyed

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
49
Sliding your finger is good for SHFFLs and double lasers and stuff, but if you use the C-stick, tapping is better.

Also, you can press your L-cancel button and down almost at the same time for SHFFLs.
Wow, thats good advice, I can shuffl pretty much every time now!
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
It throws out several attacks fairly quickly, so yes there is. I don't use it much personally... it's kinda situational. You usually want to stop on the third attack since there's a significant gap between the third and fourth attacks, and because the neutral A slash on the third attack sends them pretty far.

Also, the downward third attack is a Meteor Smash. For... whatever that's worth.
 

balladechina212

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 28, 2006
Messages
680
Location
Chicago, IL
I've seen two people write detailed "guides" on the dancing blade:

The first is by Retroking here (it's the 8th post).

The second is by Ken

let me give all the marth players or anyone who wants to use marth some special and important advice on marths Foward B since im such a nice guy.

1st of all you can use it against your Foe at any %, it works as a stun only of they do not crouch cancel.

However, 2ndly if they do crouch cancel you have to work on your timing with it's speed, once you get the 3rd slash out, it's as strong as a foward tilt but does not have to hit your opponent at the tip to be strong.

3rdly, on the 2nd foward tilt always do a nuetral B, never do or hold up, because if you do then you cannot link it into the 3rd hit

4th, for the 3rd hit, if you want to combo hold up and up again or, just up then pause and air jump F-air

furthermore, if you want to send them flying if they are at high percents use the foward or nuetral B,

use down if you notice the person is crouch canceling or if they are sheilding, because this is a very powerful move which gives knock back therefore if you are at the right space you can avoid their sheild grab

now for the 4th hit, it's very simple....

if they are above, use Up B/A

if they are where you cannot reach then use foward or nuetral B/A

and if they are sheilding or on the ground/crouch canceling ur best bet is down since it is numerous attacks but you can still get sheild grabbed, however sometimes they don't notice how many attacks marth does for the final down so it throws them off...

sword dancing on air-

ehhhh? another discussion :)
 

Ryusiodo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
182
Location
Miramar/Gainesville, Florida
Thanks to both of you. :)

I just tried some Shffling and I have to say it's not that hard. Well at least when I'm practicing on an unmoving opponent in training mode. >_> One problem I have is that sometimes when I L-Cancel I end up shielding too. Will a slight tap of the shield button be enough for the L-Cancel or do I just need to release the button earlier? I sort of have the same problem with wavedashing too sometimes...
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
Just a tap will do. I had this problem when I started out too. The rationale is basically, if you tap it and do it right, you'll get the effect. If you tap it and do it wrong, holding it won't make it right.
 

Ryusiodo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
182
Location
Miramar/Gainesville, Florida
Sliding your finger is good for SHFFLs and double lasers and stuff, but if you use the C-stick, tapping is better.

Also, you can press your L-cancel button and down almost at the same time for SHFFLs.
Sorry for not asking before but is this actually true. >_> So far the only move I can sort of shffl well is the nair. I'm still having trouble with shffled fairs which can really be a problem. When I shffl I SH, aerial, FF and then when I'm almost about to land I L-Cancel(or try to anyways). There is usually about what I'd estimate as a 1/2 second between the FF and L-cancel. Am I doing it wrong?
 

pr4n4y

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
48
Location
Houston, TX
Well, actually I've seen a lot of people slide their fingers off X and Y, but I just tap it very lightly. Remember, it's not how hard you press the button, it's how fast, so theoretically you could press it down as hard as you could, as long as you release it very fast. I actually learned to shorthop with Marth. Basically, I spent like 20 hours just sitting at my house practicing SH'ing and shffling, so it's just gonna take a while, that's all. And, one more thing.

Don't think that when you can ShortHop and Wavedash, your automatically going to beat your friends. This is a common misperception. Yes, they are powerful techniques, but you need to know when to apply them, y'know?
Listen to this. When I first learned how to Wavedash, I called all my friends over to play me because I thought I was so good.

WRONG.

First off when you learnt he basics, you need to do MORE than just learning.

Sure I could wavedash here and there, but nothings more humiliating then accidentally jumping in the air and air dodging yourself off the the edge.

Also when you shorthop with Marth, just practice. It took me around an 20 minutes in training to get it where I could do it half the time while dashing. Right now i still can't do it all the time but I've gotten a lot better.

Another thing is, just because you can wavedash well in training does not mean you can do it well in an actual fast paced match. When I just learned how to wavedash I could barely do it in an actual gameplay because of the speed and stress.

I have to say is, L-Cancel isn't hard at all to learn. PRACTICE IN TRAINING. You just need to do it 1/10 of a second before you land. Most people do it too early (atleast I did)

SHFFLing takes a while to learn though because its all these techniques in one, but dont give up and you'll get it. It's not like breakdancing where it takes months to learn one thing haha.
 
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