Need help with certain kinds of matchups/playstyles

[YoungFox]

Hey everyone,

Today I'm making my first post here. Yay. Anyway, I consider myself fairly experienced with the game although I haven't had it for very long I've certainly spent a ton of hours just labbing and praticing in training mode. So I know my character well. I do play online too where I win most matches (I play on the 3DS so I can't do proper pping nor c-sticking unfortunately). Anyways I tend to play Fox with a rushdown style, although I know when to go campy and/or respect certain moves. So I'm not rushing in without thinking, that's the main difference I think. So basically I'd like to think that I play a smart, adaptive and aggressive style.

I tend to struggle against players that play patiently (and I mean very patiently) and punish my moves. Now I'm not mindlessly throwing out moves unless they're safe. Within this calm, collected type of play I generally find Little mac, Jigglypuff, Villager, Shiek, Kirby and WFT hard to deal with. For different reasons.

So Little mac and Shiek are difficult for me to handle for several reasons. Firstly. While I'm good at creating pace I am totally horrendous (exaggeration) at coping with somebody else leading the tempo. Both Little mac and Shiek have good frame data (the latter being superior in both air and grounded) which I can't seem to punish or handle calmy. They get me into a fast pace where I find it hard to concentrate and of course I get punished for it, eg. Usmash from an airdodge read. The thing is that since they have good frame data they can bait me into doing stupid things that leave me open.

The others (Villager, Kirby, Jigglypuff and WFT) I find hard because they have good camping abilities. Kirby and Jigglypuff can just stall in the air and their dodges make it very hard for me to punish them. Villager and WFT can just camp me very hard. Especially WFTers since I see them camp the ledge all the time and I have no idea how to punish them. Although I have good patience the camping gets to me and I get punished for it.


Sorry for making this so lengthy without making it very clear. The two hardest things for me to deal with are good Little macs and WFTers. I can't for the love of me punish a good Little mac, I need some serious help with this. Due to Little mac being a great bait and punish character he gets so much from me making a small mistake. The superarmor doesnt' help. And the WFTers are just so hard for me to punish offstage since Fox doesn't really have solid gimping/off-stage moves. Instead I end up being edgeguarded hard.

If anything is unclear let me know because I know it's kinda unstructured ^^"

 

[Justinian]

I don't have enough matchup experience with Puff to talk about her, but I can try to help with the others.

Villager and Wii Fit: These guys have strong camp games, yes, but you're Fox. You have the tools to camp them out if you want/have to, and you also have the tools to stop them from camping. Get in their face and they're gonna have a bad time, especially Wii Fit, who can't really get you off her once you're inside. Villager has that annoying F3 nair that can break your combos, but like the Mario Bros' nair, you can read their mashouts once you download the player and punish their landing. Bair also outranges Villy's nair iirc, so that's a good tool vs him as well.

Kirby: I can totally relate to struggles in this MU. Honestly, in my opinion, this matchup is not worth playing with Fox if you have a secondary (Robin?). Kirby's punish game on us is extremely potent, to the point where we can take like 50% from one combo and we just can't escape 'cause we're Fox. That, and his edgeguarding vs us is obnoxious, so I'd honestly say to save yourself the trouble on this one.

Sheik and Mac: You said in your post that your main problem with these guys is that they can bait out bad moves and punish you for 'em right? Realizing that is the first step to getting better in these matchups. If you know you're being baited, resist the mental urge to take the bait. Then throw out some mindgames of your own. Remember, your opponent is human too, so if they can bait you, you can bait them. From your description, it seems like your problem in these MU's is that a certain part of your autopilot hasn't totally turned off yet. Just work on your mental game vs them and it'll go a long way, not just in the MU but in your Smash game in general; you'll improve a lot.

Oh, and one more thing: unless you know you're gonna die from up B, don't airdodge against Mac. It's just not worth it a lot of the time.

 

[YoungFox]

I don't have enough matchup experience with Puff to talk about her, but I can try to help with the others.

Villager and Wii Fit: These guys have strong camp games, yes, but you're Fox. You have the tools to camp them out if you want/have to, and you also have the tools to stop them from camping. Get in their face and they're gonna have a bad time, especially Wii Fit, who can't really get you off her once you're inside. Villager has that annoying F3 nair that can break your combos, but like the Mario Bros' nair, you can read their mashouts once you download the player and punish their landing. Bair also outranges Villy's nair iirc, so that's a good tool vs him as well.

Kirby: I can totally relate to struggles in this MU. Honestly, in my opinion, this matchup is not worth playing with Fox if you have a secondary (Robin?). Kirby's punish game on us is extremely potent, to the point where we can take like 50% from one combo and we just can't escape 'cause we're Fox. That, and his edgeguarding vs us is obnoxious, so I'd honestly say to save yourself the trouble on this one.

Sheik and Mac: You said in your post that your main problem with these guys is that they can bait out bad moves and punish you for 'em right? Realizing that is the first step to getting better in these matchups. If you know you're being baited, resist the mental urge to take the bait. Then throw out some mindgames of your own. Remember, your opponent is human too, so if they can bait you, you can bait them. From your description, it seems like your problem in these MU's is that a certain part of your autopilot hasn't totally turned off yet. Just work on your mental game vs them and it'll go a long way, not just in the MU but in your Smash game in general; you'll improve a lot.

Oh, and one more thing: unless you know you're gonna die from up B, don't airdodge against Mac. It's just not worth it a lot of the time.

Thanks a lot for the advice!
Villager and WFT:
Yes I do realize I can easily get up in Villager and WFT's face, however the issue is moreso that they camp where I can't really get to them without being baited by them. Villagers just camp with the rocket + an absurd recovery making it dangerous to even challange offstage. WFT uses the sun salutation, deepbreathing and the volleyball to ledge stall, making it risky as well to just go down there with a shine or ff fair. The thing is that they do this because I'm too aggressive, or that's how I see it.

Kirby:
Yeah I take a huge amount of damage just by being baited into shielding or eating a dair. I do play more secondaries than Robin though. I'm not sure if Robin is a good counter, what do you think?

Sheik and Mac:
Yeah I know that it's all mindgames and me not focusing 100%. I just find it hard to even find an opening. On for glory, most of the Shieks I've met haven't been too much of a problem, but that's because they're playing poorly. Yet one or two out of the Shieksss are extremely good at camping and baiting poor moves. Also the thing with good little macs I've faced is that they won't comit to anything unless you've made a mistake. So if I don't do anything they'll just do a smash or something. If I shield they'll roll behind or grab me. If I try to play neutral with the blaster I get punished due to Macs speed. I just don't know how to approach a good, patient Mac. The frame data, rollspeed and super armor makes it hard to punish them with the little time you get too.

Also this might be sad, but I can't gimp good Macs either. They just mix up their recovery really good.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

Anyone with a fast disjointed move that can be used for zoning would be a decent counterpick for Kirby (Marth/Lucina, Cloud, Corrin, Villager, etc. I'd avoid Roy though, since he's a fast-faller)

If you have to be Fox, I recommend at least keep your distance. The one thing Fox has over Kirby in this matchup is that he can close gaps much faster. Try to land some lasers if possible, only go in when you can be sure it's safe (be wary of dair cancels). That probably goes without saying, but still.

 

[Justinian]

Thanks a lot for the advice!
Villager and WFT:
Yes I do realize I can easily get up in Villager and WFT's face, however the issue is moreso that they camp where I can't really get to them without being baited by them. Villagers just camp with the rocket + an absurd recovery making it dangerous to even challange offstage. WFT uses the sun salutation, deepbreathing and the volleyball to ledge stall, making it risky as well to just go down there with a shine or ff fair. The thing is that they do this because I'm too aggressive, or that's how I see it.

Kirby:
Yeah I take a huge amount of damage just by being baited into shielding or eating a dair. I do play more secondaries than Robin though. I'm not sure if Robin is a good counter, what do you think?

Sheik and Mac:
Yeah I know that it's all mindgames and me not focusing 100%. I just find it hard to even find an opening. On for glory, most of the Shieks I've met haven't been too much of a problem, but that's because they're playing poorly. Yet one or two out of the Shieksss are extremely good at camping and baiting poor moves. Also the thing with good little macs I've faced is that they won't comit to anything unless you've made a mistake. So if I don't do anything they'll just do a smash or something. If I shield they'll roll behind or grab me. If I try to play neutral with the blaster I get punished due to Macs speed. I just don't know how to approach a good, patient Mac. The frame data, rollspeed and super armor makes it hard to punish them with the little time you get too.

Also this might be sad, but I can't gimp good Macs either. They just mix up their recovery really good.

Villager and Wii Fit: Regrabbing ledges causes them to lose invincibility, and they have to grab ledge at some point; they can't float out in the void forever (even though it feels like they do sometimes). You have dtilt, up tilt, and dsmash to hit them when they're hanging out on the ledge and either do damage or combo into an aerial. Corner pressure is a place where Fox excels, so make use of it vs these guys.

Kirby: Like ZeroJanitor said, disjoint characters generally do well vs Kirby because he lacks a solid approach option. Personally I switch to Cloud vs Kirby, but as for Robin specifically, I would think that between Levin Sword aerials and their B moves, they can zone out the puffball pretty well.

Sheik and Mac: This honestly sounds like kind of a wifi issue rather than a matchup issue. You did say "on For Glory," and that could be part of the problem. Wifi exacerbates the effects that differences in frame data have, making characters like the Mario Bros, Yoshi, Sheik, Mac and Sonic WAY harder to punish than they would be in tournament. Fox does have amazing frame data, but Sheik and Mac are just better in that department, and you can really feel that on wifi. As for the actual matchups themselves, basically just play as safe as possible. Like REALLY safe. If you play hyper-aggressively against them, you WILL get punished incredibly hard. Throw out safe moves in neutral, like max-spaced back air and ftilt, which are difficult and in some cases impossible to punish. Keep moving, because Fox's movement is hard for a lot of players to pin down if you mix it up.

 

[Dr. Bread]

actually, if you play a rushdown fox style you should have an advantage versus patient play, unless im misunderstanding you.

the way i define 'patient play' is when you avoid committing to anything so that you can potentially react to your opponent's next choice, but in order for this kind of play to succeed, you need to be aware of a few things:

• your opponent's effective range; where and how big is the space your opponent can land an attack faster than you can react from their position(e.i, in sheild, in the air, off-stage, on the ledge, dashing, walking. all these positions can enhance or restrict your effective range) effective ranges will be longer on wi-fi or a laggy monitor. turn off any post-processing effects that your monitor applies to the picture as they can introduce several frames of lag.
• your opponent's movement; guessing this correctly allows you to position yourself to punish a potential over-commitment
• your opponent's response to your movement; simply put, this mixup is only useful if your opponent makes a hasty assumption that you will enter their space in some way and hurriedly commits to something to avoid it. if you haven't recognized any baits that your opponent responds to, this kind of patience stops being a rewarding strategy.

rushdown classically beats this kind of strategy because as your opponent tries to retreat in order to gain a safe position, you simply pursue them and thus force them to either make a risky commitment and stop you, or take a bad position.(their shield, the corner, the air, sometimes 2 of those at once, all of which put fox at a great advantage)

You'll want to disrupt their attempts to outrange you depending on how you expect them to handle your attempts to invade their space. This will be dependent on matchups and positions, but generally speaking everyone except sheiks, other foxes, clouds, and mewtwos will have some sort of weakness against you in these situations, which i wont be going over.

what i will go over is a few common tactics used when trying to defend against rushdown, the purpose of those tactics, and their counterplay so that you can interact with your opponent intelligently when you predict these.

• walling/retreating with attacks: this is where an opponent throws out an attack at a safe range. this tactic is basically a safe guess that you're about to try to approach them by putting out a hitbox for you to run into, with the aim of being from a position that minimizes the chances of opening themselves to a guaranteed punish. The key to beating this is to think of good positions as neutral wins, and instead of running in and trying to directly punish a safe attack, settle for taking your good position back and reset the situation, and if they don't recognize that they've lost the positioning advantage and they try to keep walling you from an unsafe position, take the direct punish, you earned it!
• sacrificing space: this, in my opinion, is the tactic that probably requires the most specific reads to lead to an advantage, but it also requires very specific reads to punish directly. Its one of the places that defines many top tiers from low-tiers, because certain top tier characters still have an advantage against certain low-tiers when they are forced into a position classically considered to be bad. Im defining this as when a character takes to the air, goes on platforms, sits in shield, or runs to the edge of the stage. This tactic will be unlikely to result in a punish on anything except very bold commitments, however this puts it in very common use at low-level play, versus players who fish for random hard reads in neutral. If you dont know what do do, just take center stage and let your opponent back themselves into a corner(literally or figuratively), where you can force them to make a desperate decision and capitalize hard.
• early interception: this is sort of an anti-meta technique i guess you could say, but it relies on 2 basic reads on an opponent's intentions. The first is that the opponent wants to approach you and try to rush you down, the second(anti-meta part) is that your opponent thinks you plan to go defensive by running away, shielding, rolling away, spot-dodging, boxing you out, etc. Many characters's staple options they use to cover their opponent's defensive options involve an overshot, delayed, or otherwise late approach. If someone reads this choice, they can interrupt with an early attack instead. If someone wants to do this to you, all you have to do in order to beat it is... well basically do the regular fast and unsafe approach, but this time its safe because you conditioned them to expect the safe approach(you can also stay back and do a whiff punish). This interaction categorizes a lot the most high-level micro-situations in smash bros, because its dynamics reveal opportunities to capitalize with very high risk/reward punishes on very small openings granted by otherwise highly safe options, or bait your opponent into making desperate reads to escape a check-mate situation.

I hope this helps. Remember that my information isn't complete, but partially describes the dynamics of a few specific neutral interactions. Hopefully you can use the concepts i described in order to innovate on your own and surpass other players in the future. Try to watch videos of top level sets where tight interactions play out constantly, and try to analyze why they play out in the ways that they do, imagine ways they play out differently, and see how the players are influenced by each other.

Oh, and of course it always helps to practice your execution! can never be too perfect