Need help on Offstage options/gimps

[Enrel]

Love Link, and just enjoy playing as him. This might come out a bit weird but when fighting people with good recoveries - or just in general I feel like my offstage options of just terrible. (Not that Link's are) So I want to improve on this and really NEED to improve. So maybe some help and some clarity would help on those longer fights let's say. (Specifically vs Rosalina)

At most my state to offstage options tend to be Nair or Fair but they rarely gimp out a recovery if doing anything more than adding % at all. Bair is nice but tends to share the same problem for me. Maybe I'm doing it too late or not going out far enough. Either way I'm not 100% sure.

I know that Down Tilt can often spike an opponent to death though recently it's been knocking them up instead down spiking them down which can get a bit annoying.

I guess one of the major things I should learn is the timing for the Meteor on Dair but that timing has really eluded me - and everything about Dair seems random at times. What I mean is that there's times where I'm like "Oh this is totally going to spike" but doesn't or times where I feel like it'll just be the weak attack but strangely spikes. So I want more control over this than just praying I've done it right to begin with.

Either way I really would like to learn better options to kill foes earlier than the normal 90% ish mark that I'm currently at with the ground game. So turning to way better Link players than I in this instance to learn more about what I'm doing wrong.

 

[ShinnyMetal]

In my experience gimping isn't really something link comes with in his standard toolkit. Really, it's hit them with nairs and projectiles and hoping to hit them just far back enough. Of course a dair spike is death off stage but I wouldn't put that in the gimping category mostly because of where you need to be to secure one typically ends up being an edge read more than a gimp (and lately I've only gotten them on people trying to GIMP me lol)

Links kill game starts around 90% like you said. He rarely gimps and it's usually against, at best, mediocre recoveries. Keep the offstage pressure for getting them percents but don't make your aim to kill them unless you got the dair opening or you can just outright kill them with a bait/fair/up-b because they are at high enough percent.

I tend to focus on edge traps so I can better read their get up options

 

[Dumbfire]

Link actually has a surprisingly versatile toolset for gimps: arrows, bombs, up b, Nair and Dair and the tether. Dtilt is trash, don't use it to try and spike. If your opponent doesn't have invincibility at the ledge hit them with Dsmash, Ftilt or Dash Attack. The Dair Spike hitbox is just when it first comes out. You can see it easily here. You should use the spike mostly like he did there: catching jumps with it. Good players will rarely make it that easy, however, and will, like most Rosalinas, recover low. That match incidentally also displays a very nice use of arrow gimps. Aim well and you can get characters like CF, Mario, Luigi, Little Mac &c. Don't use charged arrows, then it's just a matter of airdodging right above the horizontal extension of the stage for the opponent : with uncharged arrows you can surprise them. Nair works for the same characters.

When the opponent recovers low you have a few tools too. You could go for a stagespike, depending on the stage, with Bair or Dair (the lasting hitbox). Disadvantage is those can be teched. That works best on FD, Duck Hunt &c.: places where there's a big wall below the ledge. Going in with Dair's lasting hitbox in general covers a huge space, though you will rarely get a stock with it. It racks damage insanely fast though. Throwing bombs down can also get them -- there's an important trick there, which is when you hang from the ledge if you jump then press z you'll z-drop the bomb without zair coming out. You'll be in that situation frequently because there's a very important thing you should be doing: trumping. I trust you know what it is? When your opponent has the ledge grab and you grab it too, he is pushed away from the ledge. Time it well (when your opponent first grabs the ledge) and you get a free Bair, unless your opponent buffers a ledge get-up option (which you can also anticipate). On Rosalina, Fox, Pit, Lucario and similar characters that can go really low we have another great tool, namely the Zair trump. Here's Foxy's explanation from the AT thread:

Note: Ok to explain, let's first cover the basics. When you grab the ledge normally there is a period of time in which you cannot act but also cannot be trumped; the very moment you can act is the moment you can also be trumped if you don't buffer a ledge option. When you grab the ledge with a reeled in tether however, you can act immediately and be trumped immediately (if you don't buffer a ledge option). [It doesn't really matter so much if you are trumped out of a tether though because the opponent will be stuck on the ledge for the full amount of time allowing you to DJ recover, or in other words, trumping a reeled in tether is the equivalent of doing a trump at the worst possible time.] With a normal trump you have to try to time it so you grab the ledge immediately after the opponent does, otherwise you'll still be stuck waiting on the ledge while the opponent is being trumped and you could miss out on getting a follow-up. But because the tether allows you to actimmediately when you grab the ledge, you don't have to time it perfectly at all. Even with the latest/worst timing, you are still able to act the very moment the opponent gets trumped, which technically gives you a guaranteed hit away from the edge DJ Dair spike, though this is difficult so you'd be better off just getting a Bair or an Up-special.

There's more yet. Use Up B. You can catch airdodges with it well, and it will always be safe when you hold a bomb. Going under the opponent then B reversing it will trap him in it too. The knockback is huge, you can kill at 70 percent offstage. You can do a b-reversed Up b from a trump too. Here's an example of using Up b to catch airdodges.

Additionally, when you bombslide / dash throw near the ledge and pull another bomb, you can slide off offstage with a bomb. You can throw it up then Up b to cover yourself in case of a miss, but better yet is when you use it in combination with a reverse fake-out bombslide, since that gives you the unique opportunity to slide off the stage in reverse. Then you can easily Z-drop the bomb while grabbing the ledge with the tether, or go for a Zair trump with bomb in hand. The first Tributary of Toon Link Tears I made shows that in detail. Then the second one features some more uses of it. Watch especially the Greninja gimping: it shows the use of trumping. (By the way, I find the boomerang lacking in gimping. If you are ever going for a galeguard though, use the bomb slide-off then instead of pulling a second bomb angle the boomerang diagonally upwards which will give you a perfect gale-guard on SV, BF, FD and other straightforward stages.)

It is good you bring this up because I have been compiling footage for the third Tributary of Toon Link Tears: the Institute of Advanced Link Edgeguarding.

Edit: Another note: Dash Attack hits pretty far off-stage.

 

[Enrel]

Woah... This is a lot to take in. I haven't gotten bomb sliding down yet, but it sounds like a key technique I really need to get the hang of especially for catching my Rosalina friend off guard.

 

[Koby_T]

@ Dumbfire Those last two paragraphs just blew my mind

 

[Dumbfire]

Bombsliding is not too important in gimping though, but a nice gimmick. Here's The Institute of Advanced Link Edgeguarding (The Tributary of Toon Link Tears Part III) to show all the things I mentioned in my post:

Foxy noted it might be nice to make it into a thread by itself -- I may some time.

 

[link7]

When you look at it, our edgeguarding game was heavily buffed in Sm4sh. Our problem now is getting people off the stage.

 

[SphericalCrusher]

Link does have some options for gimping as Dumbfire mentioned, but I wouldn't recommend focusing too hard on that. If you're trying too hard to gimp by using Link, you're playing Link wrong. IMO. EDIT: It's still good to learn though as it gives you one more tool to take out an opponent in a different scenario.

 

[DUKEL]

Link does have some options for gimping as Dumbfire mentioned, but I wouldn't recommend focusing too hard on that. If you're trying too hard to gimp by using Link, you're playing Link wrong. IMO. EDIT: It's still good to learn though as it gives you one more tool to take out an opponent in a different scenario.

What are you talking about? Gimping with Link is an important part of our gameplay - our aerials are strong for a reason - use them. Once we get our opponent offstage we have so many options. Definitely learn how to gimp with Link.

Anyway - unfortunately, due to the updated edge (not ledge) mechanics, some of Dumfire's advice no longer rings true. Bombsliding to the edge of the stage and immediately using a special no longer takes us offstage.

Also- from the Metagame thread:

You are off-stage and get a bomb in your hand, and some nasty opponent try to gimp you, you dodge him and get into the ledge (with Z or Spin attack). This is a very normal situation and not very situational.

You can do a instant bomb drop in the very second you jump-recover from legde to the stage (legde-recover bomb for short?), and the bomb makes a wall for the opponent to recover. I've gimped the best diddys in my country with this movement. You can also do the same with meteor bomb, but this is a little dangerous.
You can also soft-throw bombs if your opponent is off stage for a similar effect (bomb bounces a little before fall off the stage), but in my experience, the bomb does not get to catch the opponent so effectively as a ledge-recover bomb.

In my experience, recorvers as Lucario's UpB and Marth's, legde-recover bombs doesn't hit them, but against Link, C. Falcon and Diddy, their hitbubbles let us get the hit, and a possible stage spike.

An failed example can be seen here (I normally don't save the gimps):
https://youtu.be/dSXu_aBwpJg?t=2m25s

Another good one is the following:
Your opponent is off-stage, and you remain in the stage because the opponent's recover si so safe (aka: Sheik).
You can do the following (proved by myself, i would upload a video of this play later): You plant a bomb in the stage in roll distance from the ledge, and cover other options of the oponnent with Dair or USmash.
Dair and U-smash catch jump-recover, stand-up recover and the former catch attack recover and staying in the legde without invincivility. If your opponnet tries to roll-recover, they active the bomb and, if you are doing a U-smash, they get punished by that move.

 

[Dumbfire]

I do it all the time, Z-dropping bombs when jumping from the ledge. If the opponent is next to the ledge without shield up he'll be hit, and if he's under you, usually from trying to gimp you before, you'll often hit them and set-up a gimp opportunity for yourself. Great maneuver.

 

[SphericalCrusher]

What are you talking about? Gimping with Link is an important part of our gameplay - our aerials are strong for a reason - use them. Once we get our opponent offstage we have so many options. Definitely learn how to gimp with Link.

Anyway - unfortunately, due to the updated edge (not ledge) mechanics, some of Dumfire's advice no longer rings true. Bombsliding to the edge of the stage and immediately using a special no longer takes us offstage.

Also- from the Metagame thread:

I do agree that it's part, but I see too many Links ONLY focus on gimping... Link does good damage and has no kill issues.

 

[JTF]

Once thing I like to do is run off the ledge - throw the bomb at it - Nair or Bair - throw the bomb you just caught and jump back. If you don't want to be fancy you can just nair and it would work almost as good, you just don't cover as much options and leave yourself more vulnerable.

 

[Swordplay]

The easy wiz to learn to read opponent with a boomerang and follow with an arrow. That works against standard recovery. Should they air dodge punishing with a flying hair is usually safe. Start with this. Score trying to learn the deadlier combos posted above

 

[TurboLink]

The easy wiz to learn to read opponent with a boomerang and follow with an arrow. That works against standard recovery. Should they air dodge punishing with a flying hair is usually safe. Start with this. Score trying to learn the deadlier combos posted above

Do you mean Nair? I just distract people with his projectiles off stage and then go for a Nair. Also, his bombs are really good to use on people off stage because of the knockback angle.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I believe this thread has run its course. There won't be anything worthwhile to say at this point, nor is there much point in keeping this thread around as some of the information contained in it has since been patched out.
Discussion about this topic should take place in the metagame thread where I can quote important posts and later delete them or parts of them from the OP should they become no longer relevant due to patches.