Need help dealing with a very bread-and-butter opponent

[JackSSB]

I have a friend who has been playing Smash for about as long as I have, maybe a couple months longer. We started out in PM but began playing Melee around August last year. We both main Marth, who I can sometimes clutch out a win against, but his other characters (Falco, Captain Falcon, Fox) I just cannot deal with. His play style is pretty much 'do what I have to do in order to win' and just deals as much damage as possible, with as few moves as possible. For Falcon, he will throw out F-smashes in neutral when I'm at low percent, then when I'm at like 50-60 percent he will throw a Knee out and it's basically over if I'm off stage. For Falco, it's almost the same deal, except there's almost too much variety to deal with. He never got very technical, he doesn't L cancels often and hardly wavedashes. I get grabbed A LOT and end up near the edge real quick. I have a feeling his isn't very cognizant of his moves and just throws out aerials and tilts at random, as he does a lot of F-airs with Falco and random Falcon Kicks with Falcon. His Fox is pretty much a joke character, but I still lose. Marth isn't as bad to deal with, but there's still the charged Smash attacks I fall for all the time, and grabs everywhere. There is just something about his play style that I just can't download. Anyone got advice? I know for a fact that If I work on my DI the situation will improve, as I have been slacking on working on it (I didn't think it was that important, but look where I am now!) But if anyone has anything else to offer, please do.

 

[AirFair]

I feel like if you just focused and watched what he was doing more closely, you would find a way to work around it. If he is throwing out things at random, your first thought should be how to effectively bait and punish that kind of dumb stuff, because it doesn't sound like he plays defensive at all.

If he isn't L cancelling or wavedashing, his marth is probably not that great, compared to one who does. Learn to move with Marth, and that is probably the most valuable thing you will ever learn, right next to good chaingrabs, which are good with his spacies.

And Falcon fsmashes in neutral? I could understand if you got hit by it once, but honestly, don't run into him. Take advantage of the lag.

 

[Wafflesaurus]

Umm dash dance grab?
Or run at him and put your shield up if he always throws random attacks, then shield grab.

 

[FE_Hector]

Another tip is to watch his character. It sound super simple, but trust me. If you see him charging up any kind of move, wait him out. He sounds like a highly physical fighter, even if you do get grabbed often. Watch out for what he's doing and be ready to just wreck him. If you get stuck in a one-two punch attack, spam Counter. If he's coming at you with something you don't think you have enough time to avoid (whether it be because you're out of jumps or have no idea how he'll follow it up), know whether or not he'll reach you and Counter at the last second. He won't have any time to figure out what's about to happen to him, and after that, know which way he's going to roll. If you've fought him that many times, just stay analytical and catch him as he arrives at his roll destination. You could grab, short hop fair, dash attack... the options are almost limitless. Just keep your eyes open and wait for your opportunities.

 

[TheBoyRoy]

If he plays Marth just f-throw>dash-cancelled grab>f-throw>tipper f-smash its not guaranteed but will hit if he DIs poorly. Against Falcon try to be wary of his spacing but you will have to tech chase him. Use back throw alot and anticipate what he will do as far as teching in place, forwards or backwards. As for Falco up-throw>up-tilt is your friend. Make sure you practice dashdancing so that you can bait him into doing dumb stuff. For example, if you know that he does not l-cancel and he throws out an aerial PUNISH IT. Practice also makes perfect man trust me.

 

[Dandy_here]

One player told me that keeping tunnel vision on your opponent helps tremendously in baiting and getting Punishes. Also, movement is the key.

 

[MookieRah]

There is only one thing I can suggest here. Just learn your character, learn some tech, and watch some videos of good Marths. You claim your friend is very bread n butter, yet nothing you mention is actually bread n butter in the competitive community. It's better for you not to focus on beating your friend and instead to focus on your individual improvement as a player. If you want to improve, get to the lab and work. If you don't have it, get 20XX setup on a wii and use that as a training tool.

 

[FE_Hector]

Something else I learned recently also regards grabbing him. (Cue often-used fact) Marth's grab range is greater than that of Yoshi (what????). Anyway, make good use of space and the massive grab range you have. What you might want to consider doing is actually taking a shot at grab -> back throw -> tipper fsmash. If he stays in place for a moment, the tipper will definitely land. If he rolls away, chase with a dash attack. If he rolls in, I'm pretty sure you should just aim the fsmash in reverse. I've found that, even though you don't always land the tipper, doing this at 0% can be devastating as it's extremely difficult to get out of.