need help against top tier...

[Mcscruff]

i play sheik and i get ***** by fox and falcos... does anyone have any advice? also, i know that marth is countered by sheik, but can anyone explain why, and how im supposed to beat him?

 

[Lightningmage]

I can't help terribly much against the space animals, however, I do know a few things:

They are prone to your tilts, especially after 40%. They can be"juggled" by dash attacks if they DI improperly and if you're fast enough. Needles cancel out their lazers, so when you get a full charge and Falco goes in for the SHL approach, throw the needles and it'll stop his approach. Needle them when they Fire Bird/Fox. Stuns and sends them a little downward, allowing for an interception approach. Won't work on Phantasm/Illusion. Downsmash is your friend, and so is grabbing. No chain-grab, but throw-->downsmash or Upsmash is a good combo.

As for Marth, here is why Sheik counters him (I may miss a few things)

Sheik is faster than Marth, allowing for Sheik to get in more hits and combo's than Marth. At low percents, Sheik has a chain-grab on Marth (though it's easy to DI out of if they know it's coming, but it works some of the time.) He is juggled by tilts allowing the damage to rack up quickly. During Marth's recovery, a timed needle all but destroy's Marth's recovery as Marth relies on the forward momentum to get back to the stage. Sheik's edgeguard game is amazing, allowing Marth even less chances to return to the stage.

Hope this helps ^^

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Sheik v Marth being ***** is extremely overrated. Personally, I don't believe any top tier vs top tier match is ****. Sheik has a slight advantage, but it's mostly skill. They **** each other. Sheik's grabs destroy Marth, as well asher needles, but Marth can combo her very easily and Sheik's recovery is exposed to hell vs Marth.

For Fox and Falco, it's about grabs. Grab and tech chase. Downsmash. Slap. Mostly about ****** their recovery, though. You should have no problems doing that. Shines are the only thing that really destroy Sheik. Easier said than done to avoid them, but that should be your goal. Falco's intimidating with SHL, but his recovery is even worse. Fox is not hard to approach.

 

[OF 'til I OD]

Tech Chase to dsmash, don't try tech chasing grab, Fox/Falco's shine is too fast.

 

[Plairnkk]

Tech Chase to dsmash, don't try tech chasing grab, Fox/Falco's shine is too fast.

dont listen to toecutter. x.x

fox/falco's shine isn't too fast if you're fast enough chasing.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Tech chasing to a grab vs Fox / Falco is not hard; do it right and you will not get shined. Once they get to a higher percentage, you can dash attack > fair for the kill. The only "hard" part is when they don't tech; it gets trickier there, because they can get up without the get up attack (so if they get up like that and you're not expecting it, they're too fast for you and THEN will shine you), or if you anticipate that, they'll get up attacking you.

 

[Shmooguy]

i have a problem approaching fox/falco with sheik. falco is obvious, his SHL is a ***** to get around, but for fox it's just difficult because of his speed. They can dashdance mindgame into attacks faster than i can react to them. if i try to shffl approach against him, they can easily move out of the way and punish me for it. any suggestions?

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Falco:

I like to jump and charge needles. Jump again and charge more needles. Land, repeat. When I'm close enough, I'm either at a good angle to throw needles and put him on the defense, or do an l-canceled fair, or a dair. All you need to do is get close to Falco and he's not hard at all. Sheik can duck under most of the SHL until the Falco adjusts so it hits her while she's ducking. In the meantime, you inch closer and closer. Falco hurts Sheik hard with the shine combos, and although proper DI can minimize the damage, it's still pretty hard (for me anyway). Outside of that, though, Falco is overrated. Lots of Falcos tend to become predictable in their attacks out of their SHL (Jovan, for example, forward smashes 100% of the time). Falco's only tough because it's a lot harder to get in grabs, but just don't let the SHLs piss you off. Falco capitalizes off them when they induce mistakes; if you stay calm and patient you won't make the mistakes he can **** you with. Power shielding helps. (I like to play Falcos on FD to purposely practice power shielding.)

Fox:

Foxes love to dash dance into grabs. What can you do? Punch. The standard punch works extremely well for me vs Fox. Fox's approach is only lame because it leads into an unstoppable shine. I like to do some of the same thing vs Falco: jump and charge some needles to make him come to me. When he comes to you, there are only so many things he can do. Foxes love using the same approach to attempt to drill shine you; wave dashing back gives you proper spacing to counter this. Grab to tech chase should lead to low percentage damage against Fox, and after that more things open up: dash attack and sometimes ftilt out of grabs, dsmash leads to edge hogging chances. Plairnkk can help you more, but overall I don't mind playing Fox. I've played Fox more times than I can count, and it's basically trying not to get grabbed or shined, because they lead to uairs and usmashes.

Big thing: Practice your edge guarding vs Fox. It should be a kill a high percentage of the time, or at least damage with a dsmash. Foxes LOVE to try to Fox Illusion you to get back on the stage and get a cheap hit, and there's a certain distance they do it. Easy solution: wave dash back once or twice and dsmash. For Firefox, you can slap them during the start up, needle them, or bair if you're edge hogging. Sheik's edge hogging game is the evener vs the shine. Also, a lot of Foxes think they're slick and try to come off the edge to shine you. You can usually predict this because they're run right at you and think their speed will save the day; you simply slap them as they come off the stage to you. Do this once or twice and they usually won't keep trying. (Of course, if you miss you're dead.)

 

[Mcscruff]

thanks for the help neighborhoodP, i hope it improves my game. but i have another question(2 in fact). What do i do against ICs, and what is the matchup vs. samus( and how do i fight a samus)?

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Sheik v Samus: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=89171

Sheik vs IC: You're getting *****. I switch to Marth, personally.

 

[Xeorogue]

That thread describes what to do against Samus very well. Omar and Plairnkk both gave very good posts, theres a 5 or 6 paragraph essay in there.

 

[OF 'til I OD]

fox/falco's shine isn't too fast if you're fast enough chasing.

It is, unless you're Drephen, which I assure you, you are not.

Now...stfu, son.

 

[Plairnkk]

It is, unless you're Drephen, which I assure you, you are not.

Now...stfu, son.

ROFL, except the fact i do it all the time to very good fox/falco players. don't assume because someone isn't top 25, they can't tech chase.

 

[OF 'til I OD]

And, you probably play people who don't know much about the game. I play all good people, and I play the 3rd best in my state nearly every weekend.

You CANNOT tech chase grab, provided the player is decent. You can't be fast enough, it isn't humanely possible. Maybe it would be, if you had super human speed.

I have asked numerous top players this also, and the all agree. You don't know what you are talking about, tech chase to dsmash works, while tech chase to grab does not.

End of story, leave now.

Me > j00

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Wtf? I've done it vs DSF before =/. And yes, Plairnkk plays good ppl.

 

[Mcscruff]

And, you probably play people who don't know much about the game. I play all good people, and I play the 3rd best in my state nearly every weekend.

You CANNOT tech chase grab, provided the player is decent. You can't be fast enough, it isn't humanely possible. Maybe it would be, if you had super human speed.

I have asked numerous top players this also, and the all agree. You don't know what you are talking about, tech chase to dsmash works, while tech chase to grab does not.

End of story, leave now.

Me > j00

3rd best? your state is wisconsin.

 

[Plairnkk]

And, you probably play people who don't know much about the game. I play all good people, and I play the 3rd best in my state nearly every weekend.

You CANNOT tech chase grab, provided the player is decent. You can't be fast enough, it isn't humanely possible. Maybe it would be, if you had super human speed.

I have asked numerous top players this also, and the all agree. You don't know what you are talking about, tech chase to dsmash works, while tech chase to grab does not.

End of story, leave now.

Me > j00

you're such an imbecile. I guess i'm superhuman then. I consistently play against chillin, pc chris, KM, chu, g-reg, kaiser, chinesah, aho, NEO, etc. don't give me your "3rd best in the state" bull****.

Just because you suck, don't assume everyone else sucks.

End of story, leave now.

 

[Plairnkk]

Oh and btw, since you>me, i'd gladly do a MM. The price will be total $ of the amount of gas it takes to drive to wisconsin for some random newbie filled tournmaent, +$5 for winning the MM.

 

[Plairnkk]

oh, and who's 3rd best in WISCONSIN, rofl? Randomspaceanimalscrub1337?

 

[Xeorogue]

I was gonna say Plairnkk was one of the best sheik players around. He plays pros all the time, then some scrub from Wisconsin tells him he sucks. Toecutter must be pr0 guys, I mean come on, look @ his friends posts. "Black Hayate" is a genious, and he plays Toecutter all the time! They are in the same crew, so obviously the genious from Back Hayate rubs off.

 

[Overswarm]

It is possible to tech chase grab, your timing just has to be on. I suggest using the dash-canceled grab with Shiek as it gives you a bit more leeway.

The only reason people have a problem with it is that it takes a lot of skill and timing to pull it off, while a space animal just hits B as fast as they can and has the advantage.

 

[Wilhelmsan]

It's not as hard as people make it out to be.

 

[Nick Nasty]

u probably can tech chase as long as u have the timing down.

 

[OF 'til I OD]

WOAH! Triple Post........calm down, skippy. I'd def MM, if ever given the chance.

I guarantee that the best in WI > Plairnkoasijs w/e his **** name is. If you ever go to a tourney I go to, MM for sure.

2.50? I like doing odd amounts.

 

[Plairnkk]

the best in wi could possibly be better than me. however, who is it? i have no idea where good mw players live. last time i checked wi was vacant of good smashers though

 

[Xeorogue]

I guarantee that the best in WI > Plairnkoasijs w/e his **** name is.

This post shows maturity and obvious intelligence for the fact that he cannot scroll up and read the persons name, which happens to be who he is flaming.

Edit:How old are you toecutter?

 

[OF 'til I OD]

This post shows maturity and obvious intelligence for the fact that he cannot scroll up and read the persons name, which happens to be who he is flaming.

This post shows that you have no idea what sarcasm is.

Also, if you click on my profile you could easily discover my age.

Plairnkk:
The best in Wisconsin are:
1.Tapion013
2.Crashman
3.Black Hayate
4.Fastest
5.Sauce

That is my opinion, and the generally accepted one of Wisconsinites. Also, you'd probably beat me in a MM, it's ok. I'm not great, just an average player, with an above average knowledge of the game </AngeloBangelo>.

 

[Plairnkk]

id gladly mm tapion, im not really scared of captain falcon at all.

sheik ***** falcon terribly.

 

[Echo]

yeah this is late but I just have to back people up saying that you need to techchase grabs all day. If you don't think you can do it, you gotta play a different game, perferably not a fighting one, since grabbing is essential in all of them.

btw, Tapion is the only good player from Wisconsin.

 

[Drephen]

id gladly mm tapion, im not really scared of captain falcon at all.

sheik ***** falcon terribly.

i use to be confident against falco too, untill darkrain came along



but i personally use tech chase grabs and downsmashes based on the player's fighting style

if i can read them easy i can grab them all day, but people who mix it up and are one step ahead of me i just go with the ol' downsmash


when tech chase grabbing fox you can either do two things, try and predict where they go immediately after the throw, or wait a sec to see where they are going and then chase them. IF you do wait though fox can shine outta it. So you can do mindgames with grabbing and downsmashing when you know they are gonna shine

 

[Plairnkk]

i use to be confident against falco too, untill darkrain came along



but i personally use tech chase grabs and downsmashes based on the player's fighting style

if i can read them easy i can grab them all day, but people who mix it up and are one step ahead of me i just go with the ol' downsmash


when tech chase grabbing fox you can either do two things, try and predict where they go immediately after the throw, or wait a sec to see where they are going and then chase them. IF you do wait though fox can shine outta it. So you can do mindgames with grabbing and downsmashing when you know they are gonna shine

that's how i used to be too dreph, but i've learned to be able to react after i see them and still get there before they can get the shine out. it's possible, just hard. but the timing is awesome.

And yeah, ive just never been ***** hard enough by a falcon to be scared of them ;-)

 

[StripesOrBars]

LOL @ not being able to tech chase grab.

What a maroon.