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Need help against spacies!

OmgItsWill

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
29
Location
Norcal
I've recently started using D.K. since he's awesome, and I've been having trouble appoaching spacies. Falco's lazers are a big problem and fox's speed isn't exactly fun to play against. I don't know exactly how to rack up damage besides u-throw---> up-b and chain grabbing at lower percentages.

Any tips?
 

MEXICAN

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Messages
1,247
Location
Hiding from La Migra
Watch matches. Read already created threads. lol, i've typed out advice so many times about fighting spacies...i'm not trying to do it again. lol
 

NJzFinest

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
8,861
Location
NYC
Watch matches. Read already created threads. lol, i've typed out advice so many times about fighting spacies...i'm not trying to do it again. lol
posts by mexican:
Against a smart fox, they aren't going to be giving you many free grabs if any at all. Against a good fox, you HAVE to master the 0-death. And if you are having trouble grabbing a fox, at low damages, all of DK's aerial moves lead into a grab. The easiest by far is the b air. If you manage to hit him with a b air, you can l cancel it and turn around for a free grab. (but you have to be quick). The way to beat a fox is grabbing and doing a 0-death. That is basically the only thing that DK has on fox (besides the Giant punch which is by far my favorite move in the game). DK can edgeguard fox pretty well also though. B air off the edge works well if you can get them (but don't go too low cuz DK's vertical recovery sucks butt). The best strategy is to grab the edge, and when fox is trying to do his fire fox, jump back and use your up b, knocking him back (as demonstrated by Captain Jack in Jungle Fever). If you knock a fox off the edge and you think he will use the illusion to sweetspot the edge, you can run towards the edge and use your up b (while still on the floor), and once you clear the ledge hold towards the center of the stage. The fox will run into you and get knocked down while it causes you to grab the edge, then from there, the fox has to make a vertical recovery. Ledge hop onto the stage with a d air. If the fox doesn't sweet spot it perfectly, he will be meteored down (but this can be cancelled). If he ledge techs or meteor cancels, you can try to d air him again, or do whatever you feel works best for you.

Falco is similar to fox with a few added things. Edgeguarding is easier against falco since his options are more limited cuz of his bad recovery (and the strategy against the illusion as mentioned b4 works on falco too. Don't worry, you won't get meteored from his illusion if you do it right.). The main difference here is trying not to get destroyed by the lasers and predicting the falco's moves. Falco's pillar combo is deadly if you don't know how to handle it. The biggest thing about beating a falco is you have to light shield against him. You won't be shield grabbing a falco much anyways so the light shield is definately the better choice in shields. When the falco comes with the d air, we all know that he will shine, followed by a jump, etc. If you light shield, you shouldn't be hit. After he does his d air and shines, he is gonna jump. You can use this to your advantage. If you jump when he does, you can do an u air. This catches falco users off guard all the time. Once you u air him, you can either go for another u air, or you can try and grab him. I do this all the time. If you grab him, you HAVE to 0-death him. The key to beating the space animals is not letting them survive if you get them in your hands. Also, another thing that can help, if after the shine, the falco shorthops, you can use an up b outta the shield. DK's up b outprioritizes falco's d air if timed correctly and has very good knockback if you hit them while they are above you.
A combo that i use the looks pretty sexy (and is good for when you don't have a giant punch charged) is i do the typical grab u air combo to fast fallers. But when it gets to around that time to giant punch and i don't have the giant punch charged and i don't feel like using the f air, and they are trying to influence away, i run and jump at them with a full jump. I use a n air that will knock them up and away slightly (the whole time i'm still influencing forward, and if timed and spaced correctly, they will end up right above you when your lag stops for a free up b. It works especially well when after the n air you are off the stage and they land above you cuz then you up them and the continue to fly out while you get the edge for the edgeguard. Its hard to envision, but trust me, its sexy. =)
#1 Falco cuz he's falco, and any stage where dk has some kind of an advantage (at places like final d where dk can 0 to death him, falco can just sit back and spam). Its nearly impossible to grab falco with dk since a shield grab isn't working against a good falco anytime soon, and doing things like a b air into a grab is useless since its hard just to turn around for a b air. everytime you try to turn around, a lazer hits you and you're facing him again. And dding doesn't do much for you.
#3 I know that some people will disagree with me, but i'd have to say fox. Sure DK can beat the snot out of that rodent if he grabbed him, but thats if he can grab him. Take away DK's grab game, and its slaughter. I don't know about you guys, but i've played some very technical fox players, and grabbing them isn't a walk in the park. My friend KFC is nearly impossible to grab since he knows all the moves that DK can do into a grab. Fox can actually edgeguard dk very well, much better than most might think. KFC will ledge stall into a shine to edgeguard me, or even just use the d air since it can't be tech'd and dk's vertical recovery is so horrible. This is just my oppinion, everyone's gonna have their own
One thing about fighting falco, that you can usually pull off more often than you can on fox, is using your up b out of the shield. Falco is tall enough to get hit by your up b when he's standing behind you. Against fox, you can't hit with the sweetspot, meaning its a delayed and he can grab you or hit you if you try to stop him with that. However, with falco, your up b will hit him away with the initial hit which is really strong, and hits imediately, and at the very least, will at least collide with the shine and then give you a chance to get out of there or whatever it is that you want to do. Against falco, you have to use your up b A LOT. It'll save you many times of getting pillared. Another thing you have to do if you want to beat fox or falco, is mastering wave shielding. You can even use it for mindgames. I bait lots of foxes by shielding as they approach, and then they try to come with a d air, or n air right above me, and i waveshield back as they get there, and i have a free grab, which is gold against a fox or falco.
Its difficult, but you can do combo's there. I did a combo, where silent wolf was at around 20 damage, and killed him with one grab. I was underneath the right platform, did a sh u throw, u air, u air, jumped up to the platform with a full jumped u air, and he influenced way to the left, so i ran off the platform with another u air, and he influenced back right, and then i jumped back up with another u air, and then jumped and giant punched him. I usually wouldn't reccomend going for something like this though, cuz there are usually better alternatives. I personally usually like to just take the fox in the middle at the bottom, and do a sh u throw, into an u air, and then immediately giant punch. If they're influencing in front of you, they go flying forward because they're getting punched into the same direction that they're influencing. If they're influencing behind you or not at all, they'll get popped up from the back part of the giant punch, setting up for more combos. You can start an u air combo after a hit with the back part of the giant punch. That stage is good for spamming u airs if someone is on the platform above you. Overall, i like this stage against fox/falco/falcon. I wouldn't reccommend it as a first choice, but its not a bad choice
Eh, i know you can u smash out of the u throw, but i don't like to personally. If the fox is lower than 100 damage, i usually u air into f air or giant punch. If its over 100 damage, its sh u throw, into a f air. If they're at 120 or over, full jump u throw to u air. All will ko a fox. I just don't like the u smash cuz its a little difficult to time and you really pay for it if you miss. Its easier to hit what i do and its safer, although the f air isn't always enough to put them away. But i can usually guarantee their death with a simple edgehog or edgeguard.
I like it in some situations for comboing. If someone is influencing forward after an u throw (talking about fox/falco/falcon), you can u air, regrab, u throw, u air, u air, n air, f tilt. I do it all the time. After the n air, they aren't too far away, so you have a chance to use the f tilt. Sometimes you can even do a giant punch after the n air, depending on how they influence, but its not usually guaranteed, and i like saving the punch for edgeguarding, so i use the f tilt. It adds a little bit more damage, its safe, and after the combo, they're usually just off the ledge by the time you use the f tilt, and it puts them in a bad spot after you've f tilted them, especially if you have your punch charged.
There are some situations where dk's n air is the best option. If/when fox has started his up b, and you don't have enough time to turn around for the b air, you can n air him before he finishes his startup. Also, DK's n air has the least lag out of all of his aerial moves. The move ends almost immediately after hitbox frames end, while the b air lasts awhile after the hitbox frames end. I definately wouldn't lead with the n air all the time, but it does have its uses
**edit- And sorry for like...stealing your thread, but i guess the least i can do is give you some advice. Take falco to brinstar. Jump above the lasers and try to charge your giant punch as often as you can, but make sure you cancel the charge before a lazer hits you. If you ever manage to get a grab, make it count, kill that bird. B air's and n airs work well at disrrupting falco's flow. Edgeguarding is gonna be your best friend cuz you can kill falco at relatively lower damages with a good edgeguard. Up b is your other best friend, cuz if timed right, it will beat anything falco has (except for a lazer of course)
other people:
Yeah, Fox is easier. But he's still no walk in the park.

One thing I've started doing, is cargo uthrow to u-air. Then, if they get good DI away from me I just giant punch them instead of re-grab. You don't even need to jump. They don't tumble and thus can't tech. No one expects it. It works just about every time for me. It KOs from 0% unless you hit them from one end to the opposite. I'll take a 25% KO on Fox anytime.

on youtube, search "Bum vs Mew2king" and "Bum vs PC Chris"

u can chain throw spacies, Uthrow to uair works..
When he says uthrow, he means cargo uthrow :p
 

NJzFinest

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
8,861
Location
NYC
Lol, no prblem.
I too was curious about more info on this matchup, so I just took the time to look back on what you have said.
Considering the fact I doubt most people wouldn't search through your posts, I just thought it was only right to share what I've dug up :p
 

MEXICAN

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Messages
1,247
Location
Hiding from La Migra
I just figured i'd drop by and let you guys in on a little secret on how to get a free grab on fox. lol. Most foxes, when they grab you will throw you up, and try to sex kick you when you di to the side. To get a free grab out of this, when they throw you up, di whichever way you are facing. Right when they jump, smash di down and hit up on the c stick and you'll hit them with an u air before their sex kick comes out, and then you just quickly turn around and grab and they will fall right into your hands. I do it all the time, and if my match against Zelgadis ever gets uploaded, there's an example of it in there. :chuckle:
 

NJzFinest

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
8,861
Location
NYC
Wow, tried it, works very well.

So yeah, I actually finally took the time to read everything Mexican said. Right now, I'm trying to use lighting shielding more against Falco. I know that since Mew2 is pretty tall, Falco has problems L-canceling Dairs on his shield. I didn't even think of other characters having anything similar.
I kinda abuse shield wavedashing with my top tier characters, but I never knew it could be useful in the DK vs Falco matchup. I'm way to used to having Falco just Dair my shield, definately have to try that shield wavedash away to grab.
 
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