Need Help against Bayo.

[bryanz]

Hi there peepz. I'm a veteran smash player, although I started in looking how to improve my game and play online since smash 4.

I'm having some serious issues with Bayonetta. I win a lot of my matchups.. but bayo is a different cookie. Its like when someone cant win they usually pick little mac/cloud and if that doesn't work they leave. Well, since the patch its bayo.. and yes..I know i'm bad against her.

The sitsuation i'm having a hard time with is not the combos or anything, in fact I find myself doing pretty well V bayo when it comes to regular fighting. Its just the fact that the Witch time usually takes about 2/3 seconds and its REALLY hard to not get trapped in it since its bloody long active. For some reason, this is almost a 100% kill secure on 60%. And that makes it in my opinion a far better kill secure than little macs KO punch. Is there a way to not just die from it. I've looked into this, been watching undefeatable on youtube for a bit. Picked up some advice that you have to space her out. And DONT attack her close range. Gee...thanks..thats great advice... For toonlink/link/samus lol

Now my question is... I dont wanne play link/toonlink all the time to spam the crap out of her. I need some solid tactics.

Yes I can beat most of them with link/toonlink, but I want to be able to do it with something like shulk/ike/marth/charizard/corrin. But for some reason, melee combat is not working out for me against her.

Is there btw any Hard counter for her?

Cheers guys. Sorry for the bit of salt.

 

[DaDavid]

Welp, the general rule for any counter is to just bait it out. You know it's coming so charge that smash attack for just an extra half a second and she'll eat it instead of capitalizing on it. That said, I know it's a little trickier with her because of her safety net Bat Withins and relatively low endlag compared to other counters. So... grab. Grab enough that maybe you condition them out of using it, or simply bait it and ignore it so that it'll stale itself out and be much less useless if they land it later on. Personally as a Cloud I have to watch out for it in the air so I make sure to bait it out with some fake-out short hops.

 

[bryanz]

Gonne try it some more 2 nite. Probably going for a really passive approach

 

[Sheep McLamb]

While projectiles are the best option, if you don't want to use them, then I suggest using Shulk's counter. It works similarly to Bayonetta's in that it lasts a good amount of time, but overusing it causes it to gradually become shorter. Of course, Shulk's is an actual "get hit, hit back" counter. Just try to keep Bayonetta in the air.

 

[DaDavid]

While projectiles are the best option, if you don't want to use them, then I suggest using Shulk's counter. It works similarly to Bayonetta's in that it lasts a good amount of time, but overusing it causes it to gradually become shorter. Of course, Shulk's is an actual "get hit, hit back" counter. Just try to keep Bayonetta in the air.

Gotta disagree that Shulk's counter will do much in that particular MU. Sure it might help you get the kill if you save it for that, but honestly the window becomes so tight from overuse that it's not worth throwing it out more than 2 or 3 times a stock. Not to mention that it deals proportional knock back and at that weird horizontal angle only. So, unless this Bayo is throwing out a lot of Smash attacks (which she probably isn't) you won't find much use for it that other options wouldn't provide.

 

[Sheep McLamb]

Gotta disagree that Shulk's counter will do much in that particular MU. Sure it might help you get the kill if you save it for that, but honestly the window becomes so tight from overuse that it's not worth throwing it out more than 2 or 3 times a stock. Not to mention that it deals proportional knock back and at that weird horizontal angle only. So, unless this Bayo is throwing out a lot of Smash attacks (which she probably isn't) you won't find much use for it that other options wouldn't provide.

You should use it 2 to 3 times. I think you should Nair her to death. If you're scared of dying, use your Monado Arts effectively. Speed and Shield would be useful for these situations. Now, I'm no Shulk main, but I haven't had much trouble with Bayonetta, honestly. I'm much worse against Cloud.

 

[DaDavid]

You should use it 2 to 3 times. I think you should Nair her to death. If you're scared of dying, use your Monado Arts effectively. Speed and Shield would be useful for these situations. Now, I'm no Shulk main, but I haven't had much trouble with Bayonetta, honestly. I'm much worse against Cloud.

Oh yeah no, I definitely don't think Bayo is a tough MU for Shulk, I just mean that Vision is not exactly why. You can easily gimp her using Jump effectively, which also has the added benefit of making you harder to juggle/combo.

 

[Sheep McLamb]

Oh yeah no, I definitely don't think Bayo is a tough MU for Shulk, I just mean that Vision is not exactly why. You can easily gimp her using Jump effectively, which also has the added benefit of making you harder to juggle/combo.

Using your Monado Arts makes it really annoying for any opponent. And that's really why anyone plays Smash, right?

 

[DaDavid]

Using your Monado Arts well makes it really annoying for any opponent. And that's really why anyone plays Smash, right?

Fixed because for every good Shulk player is 10 who try to use Buster and just end up getting themselves to 60%+ in a heartbeat.

 

[Sheep McLamb]

Fixed because for every good Shulk player is 10 who try to use Buster and just end up getting themselves to 60%+ in a heartbeat.

you could not use shulk and just spam projectiles with samus or something
^
great advice

 

[Deleted member]

I dont wanne play link/toonlink all the time to spam the crap out of her. I need some solid tactics.

You play to win, not to have fun. If spamming gets you wins, and that's what you want, then so be. You're not the first player that spams, don't feel guilty about it.

 

[Sheep McLamb]

You play to win, not to have fun. If spamming gets you wins, and that's what you want, then so be. You're not the first player that spams, don't feel guilty about it.

play to win
not for fun
play to win
not for fun

 

[palutenya]

You play to win, not to have fun. If spamming gets you wins, and that's what you want, then so be. You're not the first player that spams, don't feel guilty about it.

yikes!

 

[bryanz]

Cant I play for both , haha. But I get your drift. You're probably right about if spam gets you that win, so be it. But thats fun for 2/3 matches imo. Maybe i'm not motivated enough to go purely for wins. That might be holding me back. Not hardcore enough I gues haha.

 

[Deaga]

Winning is fun! So if you play to win, you're doing both.

Bayonetta's approach game is pretty bad, so it's hard to play her as rushdown, which is what you're asking. Her frame data bad (ie moves take long to start and have noticeable endlag if you miss/hit shield), which is why approaching is hard. Playing in a more pacient style makes your opponent approach, so you can punish their mistakes and start your crazy combos, which is your strong point.

Bullet Climax and Arts are merely an incentive to make them come to you. You actually can't even camp forever with her, as Climax has a pretty big endlag (so you can't just shoot forevever, if they get too close, you're getting hit) and the Arts have no hitstun at all. Bayonetta's camping is more dynamic; if you really want to outcamp them, you have to move around, preferably through the air (mixup those Up Bs, Side Bs and downward Side Bs!) and camp on the move. I actually find it pretty fun! Then, when you spot an opportunity, you start your combo!

My biggest mistake early on with her was playing too aggressively, which, as I said above, is way too punishable. Good oponents will totally stomp you if you're too reckless. But if you're more pacient, you'll likely get better results. It's not really Toon Link where you can to use projectiles for almost all of the game and only close in to finish a stock. With Bayonetta, you want to use your projectiles to bait an approach and, the second you spot an opening, do one of those crazy combos that deal ~40% or just outright kill them.

Of course, I'm still not a top level player (I think my Bayo is kinda bad still, being honest), but this seeing this made me improve a lot already. Hope it helps you somewhat too!

 

[Deaga]

I clicked Quote rather than edit by accident, so if a mod could please delete this ;-;

 

[Legato]

Well, if the OP would like to play some games, I'd definitely like to hash out more of my Bayo vs toon link MU knowledge. He does decently well against her, better than any of the other projectile based characters I've played against.

My advice is if you aren't TL, then play grounded and patient. Bayonetta has slow mobility and a poor grab range, so it gets rough if an opponent is moving positions often and shielding. Captain falcon, fox, and many other rush down characters do quite well since they can play patient, and get the grabs.

Corrin has a pretty good Mu against Bayo btw, mostly because we can't punish whiffed side-b, so you get to run away with it in the neutral. Basically, approach as little as possible with corrin, and stay tricky with when you throw out a hit box. I have a corrin player here who just plays really smart, so I seldom get the witch time on him. He plays patient, grounded and often blocking. He seldom lands with an aerial before delaying a slight moment for me to throw witch time out, then he keeps me out if I try to punish anything. Not impossible to defeat, but he wins more against me than not.

 

[Mechaglacier]

this is the grab button. if you dont think you can punish fast enough with an attack, grab. counters mean nothing to a grab

 

[bryanz]

Look guys. Thanks for the advice, and it sure did help me. Grab is a great option to spam. Guess my chances got sort of better.

But i need to get one thing of my chest though.. I've started leaving matches against bayo. I play once, and if i win its fine. If i lose its fine.. I just leave. Its so incredibly boring and unfair in my opinion. There are good ones, and bad. Obviously. But I still believe she is more broken than Didi and Brawl Metaknight combined. Combos used to mean something. Not just meshing buttons.

And by all means, I hope there are balance patches still to come. But as far as the rumors go, this is the final build? Which seems a bit weird since both bayo and corrin have just gotten released.. And no online game released new characters/champions without the need of tweaks lol.

Cheers,

 

[NewFoundAbility]

this is the grab button. if you dont think you can punish fast enough with an attack, grab. counters mean nothing to a grab

Fun fact: Bayonetta's "counter" isn't really a counter, it's more of a spotdodge. So... She can 'counter' your grab.

 

[Deaga]

Kind of, Witch Time has plenty of endlag after the invulnerability. Most (if not all) grabs have less ending lag, so your opponent can just punish you with another move if the grab whiffs.