Need a few opinions on Greninja's performance so far.

Kagetura

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
22
Location
New york
#1
So I picked up Greninja the moment I got ultimate and have been playing nothing but him for about 4 days straight. Initially I was really glad about the changes but the more I run into these problem child match ups from characters who can pressure hard with low jump high fast fall aerial its becoming hell to keep up in trades or neutral and the lack of an out of shield option can be pretty frustrating. D tilt feels like it has less range than 4's even if the angle is better and its not even good for poking. I feel like one of my main issues with him is it feels harder to do SHFF Fairs and Nairs than it does on other characters. I'm open to the idea that I might just still be adjusting and haven't gotten accustom to the game yet but if anyone has any tips or videos they can show me to give me a better idea please be my guest.

My gameplay example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcvcS7KRSZ8

Note: These videos look like a big improvement after taking the changes that were mentioned in the greninja changes thread and getting my act together with the movement a bit better, so maybe someone could use them as helper videos.

Greninja vs Dedede :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCymbYgYobw
Greninja vs Olimar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rs8icKFTRs
Greninja vs Wolf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Xff5MtWXg
Greninja vs ganon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOCbkclkNUg

Update

Its been a while since Ive been utilizing most of the feedback from you guys in this thread so just wanted to drop some updated videos to show how the tips and discussions have helped out my gameplay progress.

Greninja Vs Bowser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLWQNCVLaHY
Greninja Vs Ganon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9J0-64BeAs
Greninja Vs King K rool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeluoCvfTgI
Greninja Vs Dark Pit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib0FcWuuu3k
Greninja Vs Dedede: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vCzThZM5PE
 
Last edited:

MartinAW4

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
312
#2
You're on the right track, you have the basics down pretty well. Here are some things I noticed that you can improve to do even better:
1. Dash Attack follow ups
This seems to be a habit you transferred over from Smash 4 for always going for the Fair after Dash Attack, which does not combo like it used to anymore.
Instead, go for running Usmash after Dash Attack if the opponent is under 40% and then go for Uair when they are above 40%. This will greatly boost your early game damage racking.

2. Dash Attack more often
The move is amazing now. It is very fast, can cross opponents up, comboes into Usmash and Uair and is more difficult to punish even when shielded due to the nerfed shields. I recommend just going into training mode and repeatedly doing just Dash Attack combos to really ingrain them into your muscle memory.

3. Landing with Dair
This is a typical bad habit. It works vs weaker players but the better ones will be punishing you hard for doing this. Instead just fast fall and rely more on your airdodges and Hydro Pump mixups to get around your opponent and land safely with much less lag.

The timing for Fair spacing has been changed so that will take a lot of practice to build up your new muscle memory to use effectively. But it is definitely a tool worth mastering especially now with its improved kill power any stray Fair at higher percents will be killing.

And in general work on your follow-ups. At first practice a few standard follow-ups you will use depending on the percent ranges and then you can start adding mix-ups once you get more consistent with your base combos. I would recommend focusing on these base combos which are very reliable:
0-40% = Dash Attack -> Usmash
If they start shielding a lot go for Grab -> Dthrow -> Dash Attack -> Usmash

40-90% = Dash Attack -> Uair
Vs shield = Uthrow -> Uair
Nair -> Usmash

90+% = Dtilt -> Usmash
Vs shield = Grab -> Dthrow -> Fair (can be delayed if they airdodge)
Shadow Sneak is also good but use it sparingly more as a surprise, which you were pretty good at. But I noticed every time you landed one, you went for another one right after which almost never hit. So space out your SS use. SS is easily punishable if the opponent is expecting it, but can kill very early if used at the right time.

Good luck with your training!
 

SJMistery

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 18, 2016
Messages
367
3DS FC
0920-3611-4128
#3
1. Dash Attack follow ups


2. Dash Attack more often


3. Landing with Dair
Yeah, vanilla Dash Attack was good, 1.1.5 made it even better, and Ultimate made it borderline broken. Right now, Greninja is one of the VERY FEW characters where going for a Dash Attack to punish anything laggy/unsafe is almost never a bad idea.


As for Dair, it depends on where the opponent is. If he is on the air juggling you, Dair is a nice way to get out. You either hit him and combo him, or he airdodges and won't be able to follow you back to the ground in time for a punish. Using it on non-idiotic grounded opponents from anywere except as a point-blank-range punish/combo option is a horrible idea, of course
 
Last edited:

Kagetura

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
22
Location
New york
#4
You're on the right track, you have the basics down pretty well. Here are some things I noticed that you can improve to do even better:
1. Dash Attack follow ups
This seems to be a habit you transferred over from Smash 4 for always going for the Fair after Dash Attack, which does not combo like it used to anymore.
Instead, go for running Usmash after Dash Attack if the opponent is under 40% and then go for Uair when they are above 40%. This will greatly boost your early game damage racking.

2. Dash Attack more often
The move is amazing now. It is very fast, can cross opponents up, comboes into Usmash and Uair and is more difficult to punish even when shielded due to the nerfed shields. I recommend just going into training mode and repeatedly doing just Dash Attack combos to really ingrain them into your muscle memory.

3. Landing with Dair
This is a typical bad habit. It works vs weaker players but the better ones will be punishing you hard for doing this. Instead just fast fall and rely more on your airdodges and Hydro Pump mixups to get around your opponent and land safely with much less lag.

The timing for Fair spacing has been changed so that will take a lot of practice to build up your new muscle memory to use effectively. But it is definitely a tool worth mastering especially now with its improved kill power any stray Fair at higher percents will be killing.

And in general work on your follow-ups. At first practice a few standard follow-ups you will use depending on the percent ranges and then you can start adding mix-ups once you get more consistent with your base combos. I would recommend focusing on these base combos which are very reliable:
0-40% = Dash Attack -> Usmash
If they start shielding a lot go for Grab -> Dthrow -> Dash Attack -> Usmash

40-90% = Dash Attack -> Uair
Vs shield = Uthrow -> Uair
Nair -> Usmash

90+% = Dtilt -> Usmash
Vs shield = Grab -> Dthrow -> Fair (can be delayed if they airdodge)
Shadow Sneak is also good but use it sparingly more as a surprise, which you were pretty good at. But I noticed every time you landed one, you went for another one right after which almost never hit. So space out your SS use. SS is easily punishable if the opponent is expecting it, but can kill very early if used at the right time.

Good luck with your training!
Dam you were spot on with all my short comings and all that advice was amazingly constructive. I was surprised as hell about the dash attack cross up thing, I felt it was better this time around but I didnt realize it crossed up on shield, I was even complaining a few days ago how it feels like I have no good cross up options but that was perfect. Much appreciated tho, now I know exactly what I have to hit the lab on.
 

Kagetura

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
22
Location
New york
#5
Yeah, vanilla Dash Attack was good, 1.1.5 made it even better, and Ultimate made it borderline broken. Right now, Greninja is one of the VERY FEW characters where going for a Dash Attack to punish anything laggy/unsafe is almost never a bad idea.


As for Dair, it depends on where the opponent is. If he is on the air juggling you, Dair is a nice way to get out. You either hit him and combo him, or he airdodges and won't be able to follow you back to the ground in time for a punish. Using it on non-idiotic grounded opponents from anywere except as a point-blank-range punish/combo option is a horrible idea, of course
Ya that's a good point on the Dair scenario, getting juggled is alot more punishing this time around and I find it a good getaway option when you can make enough space
 

Setekh

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
4
#6
So I've been playing Greninja since the beginning of Sm4sh. Imo, he's a weird mix of Zelda, Falco, and Sheik. Sheik speed (running wise), Falco jump height, and Zelda precision. He really wants to be Sheik but he can't because of his awkward jump height and precision. His attacks don't last long and require you to be risky to get anything started. Nair seems to have been nerfed from Sm4sh in that it's hitbox is smaller. Thankfully it still leads into UpSmash, UpTilt, and sometimes fair and Dtilt.

In my opinion, Greninja is not going to do well challenging characters approaching in the air or on the ground. He's looking for a whiffed moved in order to capitalize, but only so much. With jumpsquatting being uniformly assigned, it's harder to pressure grounded opponents with fully charged WS since they can all jump away from it better and then punish the frog. WS also seems to be slower this time around but I could be wrong. On top of this, his grab has also been nerfed. It comes out so slow that it rarely connects unless you land a low percentage Nair first. Some of the design decisions for Greninja are just baffling to me, yet I continue to main him (Inkling, Chrom, and possibly Ken as backups).

Some advice:

1.
Learn to SH Nair more. Although it's range isn't what it used to be, it leads into a helluva lot.

2.
SH Retreating Fair to challenge approaches. With shields being nerfed overall, this move is a good spacing tool with it's long range and damage output. This can also be used to approach but Nair is better for follow ups.

3.
Never fully charge WS on a grounded opponent. You're more liable to get punished and it's not worth the reward in most cases. Best case, they get hit and possibly KO'd at high percents OR they just shield it and suffer very little shieldstun (WHY?!). The best way to use WS is edge guarding, or on an opponent hanging on the ledge. It must be spaced perfectly so that the last launching hitbox threatens.

4.
Greninja lost his Footstools but gained jab locks. FF Uair drags your opponent down and sets up for a jab lock if they do not tech. This can set up for kill confirms at higher percents.

5.
Bair, Fair, Ftilt, SS, and Dsmash are all much better at killing this game.

6.
Hydro Pump was weakened in this game it seems, but Sub is a very potent edgeguarding option. It has a new slowdown effect that makes it easier to land, and it punishes some of the best recoveries in the game (Chrom, K Rool, Pikachu, and more).

7.
Practice Hydro Pump angles. It can also be ledge cancelled this game so it's much better for mobility.

8. Dair is much too risky in this game. In my experience it's almost never worth the risk unless you desperately and quickly need to land. Also, it's much safer to Sub downward to spike rather than going for this move

I know I'm rather cynical about the frog, but I hope this helps.
 

Kagetura

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
22
Location
New york
#7
So I've been playing Greninja since the beginning of Sm4sh. Imo, he's a weird mix of Zelda, Falco, and Sheik. Sheik speed (running wise), Falco jump height, and Zelda precision. He really wants to be Sheik but he can't because of his awkward jump height and precision. His attacks don't last long and require you to be risky to get anything started. Nair seems to have been nerfed from Sm4sh in that it's hitbox is smaller. Thankfully it still leads into UpSmash, UpTilt, and sometimes fair and Dtilt.

In my opinion, Greninja is not going to do well challenging characters approaching in the air or on the ground. He's looking for a whiffed moved in order to capitalize, but only so much. With jumpsquatting being uniformly assigned, it's harder to pressure grounded opponents with fully charged WS since they can all jump away from it better and then punish the frog. WS also seems to be slower this time around but I could be wrong. On top of this, his grab has also been nerfed. It comes out so slow that it rarely connects unless you land a low percentage Nair first. Some of the design decisions for Greninja are just baffling to me, yet I continue to main him (Inkling, Chrom, and possibly Ken as backups).

Some advice:

1.
Learn to SH Nair more. Although it's range isn't what it used to be, it leads into a helluva lot.

2.
SH Retreating Fair to challenge approaches. With shields being nerfed overall, this move is a good spacing tool with it's long range and damage output. This can also be used to approach but Nair is better for follow ups.

3.
Never fully charge WS on a grounded opponent. You're more liable to get punished and it's not worth the reward in most cases. Best case, they get hit and possibly KO'd at high percents OR they just shield it and suffer very little shieldstun (WHY?!). The best way to use WS is edge guarding, or on an opponent hanging on the ledge. It must be spaced perfectly so that the last launching hitbox threatens.

4.
Greninja lost his Footstools but gained jab locks. FF Uair drags your opponent down and sets up for a jab lock if they do not tech. This can set up for kill confirms at higher percents.

5.
Bair, Fair, Ftilt, SS, and Dsmash are all much better at killing this game.

6.
Hydro Pump was weakened in this game it seems, but Sub is a very potent edgeguarding option. It has a new slowdown effect that makes it easier to land, and it punishes some of the best recoveries in the game (Chrom, K Rool, Pikachu, and more).

7.
Practice Hydro Pump angles. It can also be ledge cancelled this game so it's much better for mobility.

8. Dair is much too risky in this game. In my experience it's almost never worth the risk unless you desperately and quickly need to land. Also, it's much safer to Sub downward to spike rather than going for this move

I know I'm rather cynical about the frog, but I hope this helps.
Much appreciated and ya I have noticed some of these, especially the ledge cancel hydro I was wondering what was happening in the match I was watching when the greninja did it twice but I'm assuming it's just have the ending slide from hydro pump touch a platform edge?
 

MartinAW4

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
312
#8
So I've been playing Greninja since the beginning of Sm4sh. Imo, he's a weird mix of Zelda, Falco, and Sheik. Sheik speed (running wise), Falco jump height, and Zelda precision. He really wants to be Sheik but he can't because of his awkward jump height and precision. His attacks don't last long and require you to be risky to get anything started. Nair seems to have been nerfed from Sm4sh in that it's hitbox is smaller. Thankfully it still leads into UpSmash, UpTilt, and sometimes fair and Dtilt.

In my opinion, Greninja is not going to do well challenging characters approaching in the air or on the ground. He's looking for a whiffed moved in order to capitalize, but only so much. With jumpsquatting being uniformly assigned, it's harder to pressure grounded opponents with fully charged WS since they can all jump away from it better and then punish the frog. WS also seems to be slower this time around but I could be wrong. On top of this, his grab has also been nerfed. It comes out so slow that it rarely connects unless you land a low percentage Nair first. Some of the design decisions for Greninja are just baffling to me, yet I continue to main him (Inkling, Chrom, and possibly Ken as backups).

Some advice:

1.
Learn to SH Nair more. Although it's range isn't what it used to be, it leads into a helluva lot.

2.
SH Retreating Fair to challenge approaches. With shields being nerfed overall, this move is a good spacing tool with it's long range and damage output. This can also be used to approach but Nair is better for follow ups.

3.
Never fully charge WS on a grounded opponent. You're more liable to get punished and it's not worth the reward in most cases. Best case, they get hit and possibly KO'd at high percents OR they just shield it and suffer very little shieldstun (WHY?!). The best way to use WS is edge guarding, or on an opponent hanging on the ledge. It must be spaced perfectly so that the last launching hitbox threatens.

4.
Greninja lost his Footstools but gained jab locks. FF Uair drags your opponent down and sets up for a jab lock if they do not tech. This can set up for kill confirms at higher percents.

5.
Bair, Fair, Ftilt, SS, and Dsmash are all much better at killing this game.

6.
Hydro Pump was weakened in this game it seems, but Sub is a very potent edgeguarding option. It has a new slowdown effect that makes it easier to land, and it punishes some of the best recoveries in the game (Chrom, K Rool, Pikachu, and more).

7.
Practice Hydro Pump angles. It can also be ledge cancelled this game so it's much better for mobility.

8. Dair is much too risky in this game. In my experience it's almost never worth the risk unless you desperately and quickly need to land. Also, it's much safer to Sub downward to spike rather than going for this move

I know I'm rather cynical about the frog, but I hope this helps.
Regarding Nair's hitbox supposedly being smaller, that is just placebo. I tested it right now and there was no visible change in hitbox size (both versions barely missed Sheik by short hop rising Nair above her head).
However I did notice one big change to Nair and that is that in Smash Ultimate, its hitbox is active for 3 frames longer than in Smash 4. It now lasts during frames 12-19 instead of 12-16, so it lasts 60% longer than before. This coupled with its lower landing lag and out of shield punishes being weaker for everyone, the move is a lot better than it was in Smash 4. Though the start-up lag is still very long for a Nair some reason.

Water Shuriken frame data seem unchanged. I was spamming B side by side in both versions and they were throwing the Shurikens at the exact same moments. The only difference is that WS in Ultimate has better range and the fully charged version travels faster and deals more damage. The knockback was also changed so that halfway charged Shurikens can now combo into Dash Attack, so again mostly just buffs.

From the top Greninja mains I've seen playing Ultimate so far, only somé has mastered the new optimal combos so far. Both iStudying and Venia, while still playing very well, they have carried over outdated Smash 4 options that now have much better alternatives.

Here are some links to somé's Greninja gameplay and Hydro Pump ledge cancel tutorial:
Hydro Pump ledge cancelling:

Greninja and Inkling gameplay + training mode combo labbing:
 

Firox

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
2,130
#10
You're on the right track, you have the basics down pretty well. Here are some things I noticed that you can improve to do even better:
1. Dash Attack follow ups
This seems to be a habit you transferred over from Smash 4 for always going for the Fair after Dash Attack, which does not combo like it used to anymore.
Instead, go for running Usmash after Dash Attack if the opponent is under 40% and then go for Uair when they are above 40%. This will greatly boost your early game damage racking.

2. Dash Attack more often
The move is amazing now. It is very fast, can cross opponents up, comboes into Usmash and Uair and is more difficult to punish even when shielded due to the nerfed shields. I recommend just going into training mode and repeatedly doing just Dash Attack combos to really ingrain them into your muscle memory.

3. Landing with Dair
This is a typical bad habit. It works vs weaker players but the better ones will be punishing you hard for doing this. Instead just fast fall and rely more on your airdodges and Hydro Pump mixups to get around your opponent and land safely with much less lag.

The timing for Fair spacing has been changed so that will take a lot of practice to build up your new muscle memory to use effectively. But it is definitely a tool worth mastering especially now with its improved kill power any stray Fair at higher percents will be killing.

And in general work on your follow-ups. At first practice a few standard follow-ups you will use depending on the percent ranges and then you can start adding mix-ups once you get more consistent with your base combos. I would recommend focusing on these base combos which are very reliable:
0-40% = Dash Attack -> Usmash
If they start shielding a lot go for Grab -> Dthrow -> Dash Attack -> Usmash

40-90% = Dash Attack -> Uair
Vs shield = Uthrow -> Uair
Nair -> Usmash

90+% = Dtilt -> Usmash
Vs shield = Grab -> Dthrow -> Fair (can be delayed if they airdodge)
Shadow Sneak is also good but use it sparingly more as a surprise, which you were pretty good at. But I noticed every time you landed one, you went for another one right after which almost never hit. So space out your SS use. SS is easily punishable if the opponent is expecting it, but can kill very early if used at the right time.

Good luck with your training!
Seriously, listen to MartinAW4-sensei. They know what they're talking about. The combos and followups listed here are Greninja's bread and butter and mastering them easily got me into elite smash with almost 4 million GSP. As an added piece of advice, I've learned that dash attack is even more godly when you use dash dancing to bait an opening. Try it. Dart back and forth in neutral until the opponent tries to throw a short hot aerial or a dash attack of their own. Dash away just outside their range, then immediately dash back for the punish. Most importantly, once you win neutral, LET EM HAVE IT! Lots of greninjas will land the standard dash attack followup (Up smash or up air) and then fall back even when the opponent is in a disadvantaged state. Be aggressive in the air. Follow up with up air or bair again. If they air dodge, fast fall into shadow sneak and catch their landing. Make them fear the ninja and then feed on their panic.
 
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