NAME CHANGE : noob looking for help on improving his game

[ThatsPM]

Hey guys! I've been lurking around the forums in a way to get better @ melee after getting beat so often by my (what you would call) noob friends. So I watched some videos, read some guides, and practiced a whole lot.

by watching videos andf training, I have developed the firm belief that you can get much better at smash by learning advanced techniques & playstyle over spamming "top tier spammers".

So what's the best way to beat some spammers without too much training?

Here's just a bit of context... read at your own will. (but you should, it helps in understanding what I'm talking about)

Of course I want to be like the pro guys (dphanna, wak, mango, M2K or whoever are the top players), but I wanna laugh a bit at my friends, and show them they are bad so they try to get better.

the people whom I fight with are as follow :

Spoiler

They spam C-sticked smashes, rolling, shielding, special "B button" attacks and only use like fox, falco, captain falcon, pikachu, mario/dr mario, marth, jigglypuff. Oh and they use any counters/ projectiles they can. barely no aerials (full jumped dair on falco, dair/uair with link, dair with pikachu, fair/dair with marios are about it...). They rarely grab, never chain grab, rarely tech, never wavedash/l-cancel/shorthop/sweetspot ledges/shieldgrab. They have bad edgeguard techniques (fsmash w/fox/falco, B with Roy...). Some know how to dash dance, but never how to use it, they have bad timing with any kind of spikes, and the list goes on...

But oh... they're very good at spamming/being annoying...

On my side I've been practicing a bit :

Spoiler

with ganondorf mostly. I started using him as some kind of a joke, but quickly realized he packed a bunch. I would get some good odds at winning with him... but anyways, during the summer I trained (learning some high play basics you could say) with him and now I can defeat them rather easily, most of the time. I'm not that good though... I shhfl mostly my fair and uair, and sometimes bair but I have difficulties timing my dair in a match. I can wavedash but not effectively in a match, I sometimes shieldgrab (but again, I lack the timing), I've started doing chaingrabs, and I use his jab quite a bit (some tilts as well).

I also sometimes play with other characters for fun, but they're not as good as my ganon (I use Roy, Link, Falco, Mario and Ness also), I,ve gotten used to using most of their shhfl'ed fair, nairs, and somewhat some others... but not that much.

So yeah my friends aren't a good training for advanced techniques and mindplays, CPUs are too easy to kill for training, and I don't play with my friends that often, but I still like owning their a**. I would like some tips on what techniques to train first, and maybe some noob-proof techniques to win a match... anything that helps I guess!

 

[the_CAM_factor]

noob-proof technique= run in front of them. shield. they fsmash. you grab and punish.
rinse and repeat completely destroys anyone who just spam c-stick

 

[Radical Dreamer]

If you're still losing to your friends who are spamming things then that means you're not much better than they are. You're still in a bit of a noob mentality yourself.

Good, or even decent, players don't spam simply because it's not going to work against another good/decent player. For example, I'm not really a great player, but if I were playing one of your friends who doesn't grab and spams C-stick smashes, I would just run up to them, shield, and then punish them every time. If someone lets you get away with hitting them with the same move all the time, then by all means the right thing to do is to keep hitting them with that move unless or until they adapt.

What you need to do is start learning things about the game so that you know how to counter the things your friends are doing so that you start winning more and more. Learn wavedashing, L-canceling, etc. so that you have the edge. Most of the things you're talking about are very easily countered by even the lowest echelon of competitive players.

If you're serious about getting better and you find that your friends aren't, you need to use the regional forums to find actual competitive players who can push you to the next level.

 

[Shadow Huan]

learn how to short hop lazer with falco and just do that. That'll teach them not to spam moves

but seriously, what the posters above me said

 

[ThatsPM]

Ok, thanks for some nice advice already. Yeah I'm still quite the noob, but a noob who 's trying to get better (?). As for spamming, I've pretty much stopped spamming against CPUs, but I still have a hard time implementing some variations in my playstyle ( I'd say mostly tilts and grabs...). So I should get better at shielding, punishing, and some "spam-ish" techniques like SHL? allright

I think I might also try to look at this place where it seems some people form these forums hang out at... it's close to where I live so that's nice.

EDIT : sheesh, I got trolled hard there... didn't even get the troll face :S thx a bunch on the serious answer though

 

[Shadow Huan]

i was joking about SHL, telling them spamming is bad then playing a character whose best approach is spamming his projectile is going to send a serious mixed message.

to practice tech play against a lvl 1-3 cpu, they usually DI things similar to the way a compitent person would. yes they're easy to kill but it's still good for practice. get the basics like wavedashing, SHFFLing, jc grabs, ledge hopping, and dash dancing down. Most of those can be practiced in training mode but SHFFLing is best learned with the cstick...

contacting people in your region to play is a great idea so long as they're good players who are willing to teach you. just playing and loosing to them will make you good enough to beat your noob friends lol.

there, serious advice, no trolling lol

 

[ph00tbag]

> I have developed the firm belief that you can get much better at smash by learning advanced techniques & playstyle over spamming "top tier spammers".

This is your mistake right here. If your opponents don't know any advanced techniques, you don't need advanced techniques to beat them. You just need a strategy that beats them. Purge your mind of the thought that someone is bad just because they overuse moves you think are bad because the pros don't use them. They are only bad if they overuse moves despite being punished for them over and over again.

The advanced techniques and playstyles of today are simply an extension of that philosophy over seven or eight years. They work pretty well at high levels, but they don't necessarily work at all levels all the time. What always works at any level, is learning your opponent's patterns, and exploiting them. Learn to do that before you focus on advanced techniques.

 

[Twinkles]

What helped me with tech skill was to play lower level CPUs (1-5) and to play not to beat them but to be as flashy or technical as possible.

In other words, waveland all over the stage instead of fighting, mix up dash-dancing with lot's of WD's, go for strangest combos you could possibly think of, etc, and try to use as many advanced techs as possible when playing (SHFFL is a big one lol).

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

play shiek
ftilt, fair, dthrow, and ocassionally dsmash
oh and some dash attack
no ats needed other than short hop
easy enough

 

[ThatsPM]

This is your mistake right here. If your opponents don't know any advanced techniques, you don't need advanced techniques to beat them. You just need a strategy that beats them. Purge your mind of the thought that someone is bad just because they overuse moves you think are bad because the pros don't use them. They are only bad if they overuse moves despite being punished for them over and over again.

You're totally right. My word usage might have been bad, but I did think like that somewhat...

What I meant though is this :

The learning curve for spamming goes very well but you reach the top of spamming faster.
The learning curve using advanced techniques is harder, but you have more potential to gain. As you said, I won't need all the tournament, flashy stuff to beat my friends, but since I realized they were better with their playstyle, I decided going for new stuff...

I know they are often better than me, but I have the hope of becoming better than them at some point... like someone in here said ; at first you will get worst by using shffl, wavedash and other stuff, but over time it gets better.

Very nice comment and ty for it!

As well as the other tips, time to get those into practice...

 

[t3h Icy]

So according to this thread, Hungrybox is bad.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

advanced techniques alone wont make you better than your nooby friends...
you gotta space well, learn matchups, figure out ways around their projectile spamming, etc.

i hate threads like this.....

EDIT: also if youre trying to show them that ATs are better than spamming then the only really effective way to do that is to **** them... the average person will then either call you cheap/cheater and quit or get better at the game...

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

If your friends ever get tired of your countering their spamming with shield grabbing just tell them that if they attack one way there's only one way to counter back at them.

 

[Vouge]

Good, or even decent, players don't spam simply because it's not going to work against another good/decent player. For example, I'm not really a great player, but if I were playing one of your friends who doesn't grab and spams C-stick smashes, I would just run up to them, shield, and then punish them every time. If someone lets you get away with hitting them with the same move all the time, then by all means the right thing to do is to keep hitting them with that move unless or until they adapt.


If you're serious about getting better and you find that your friends aren't, you need to use the regional forums to find actual competitive players who can push you to the next level.

^ This

The best remedy is to practice against live players. I think you could get away with just working on tech skill but playing against others will always help. When you're playing your friends you should think critically about what their doing and try new strategies. TBH, I think conversations like this really detract from the truth of the matter. You'll understand the game when you understand it. It's pretty simple. You don't need to grasp the subtleties of the game to beat thoughtless spammers, you just have to be creative enough to address them. That level of comfort comes with play. I think that same notion applies to combo'ing as well.

So according to this thread, Hungrybox is bad.

^ That

Loool, spamming is so funny, especially when it works. Have you guys seen Marth's f-smash into f-smash into f-smash?

 

[Twinkles]

Have you guys seen Marth's f-smash into f-smash into f-smash?

inb4Azen

On another note, all you can do is practice. Advanced techniques will help you, but you have to know how to use them. Be aware of how to use DD and WD to out-maneuver your opponent, know what combos your character has on certain character weight classes, etc.

I used to go even with my c-stick, roll-spam friends, and nowadays I get mad if I don't get a 4-stock lol

 

[ThatsPM]

Well the question has been answered, and I guess my wording/topic offends some people (looking back at it I guess it wasn't very good either)... So could someone lock this thread?

 

[Veetaak]

I dont see how owning them would make them want to play more but it depends on your relationship with eachother and their personalities. My friend does not enjoy playing vs my Falco more than like 2 matches each session because I win alot due to practising more etc so instead I just play CF and YL so he wont go home lol. He does not like being worse than me at anything game related really because we have been on the same lvl at almost every game since we were like 5 years old.

 

[Krynxe]

I dont see how owning them would make them want to play more but it depends on your relationship with eachother and their personalities. My friend does not enjoy playing vs my Falco more than like 2 matches each session because I win alot due to practising more etc so instead I just play CF and YL so he wont go home lol. He does not like being worse than me at anything game related really because we have been on the same lvl at almost every game since we were like 5 years old.

I have the same problem with my friends. It's the only reason I originally picked up Jiggs, to **** around and try to land derpy rests. I think my Jiggs makes them rage even harder than my Sheik now, though.

 

[Violence]

I have a bit of experience in this.

Recently, I found out that my coworker loves Melee. Upon discovering that he had a bunch of friends who also played, and that I was being invited over, I figured I'd give it a shot.

The number 1 most important thing, imo, is to keep things fun. Sure, I can punish Falco fsmash spam with Jiggs shield->uthrow jump rest, and I can punish Pika Usmash spam with Sheik shield->chaingrab, but these things aren't really fun.

Whenever I would use Samus, I'm not really a spammy Samus to begin with, and I try to be mobile, aerial, and rushdowny(not how I'm supposed to play this character). When someone tries to spam or do something very repetitive, I try to punish differently each time. Maybe a crouch cancel dsmash, a wavedash back utilt, a shield->wd out of shield fsmash, for instance. Keep it fresh, even if I'm using a character that people say is the opposite of that.

I place a lot of importance on spacing in my games, and when someone's being too repetitive, I just outspace them to the point where they can't hit me with anything. This basically forces them to try something else, and eventually, they come up with a new approach that they add to their repertoire. Without being obnoxious or unfun, you basically tell them that what they do is not ever going to work on you, and they have to do something else or they'll lose, and people will naturally adapt.

If you want to just learn how to crush spam, there are a million and one ways. I suggest first becoming much more comfortable with your movement, and then develop an sense of space to the point where you won't be hit by an attack you see coming. This will force change.

 

[MasterShake]

Good point Violence. I think it's important not to "play to win" when you're in friendlies, let alone messing around with some scrubs. Scrubs especially like variety and imo it lessens the pain of losing ("You're only winning cuz of sheik dthrow/jiggs rest/falcons knee!") because you're outplaying them and not spamming back. Bread and butter stuff is good, but innovation is better.

 

[CloneHat]

The thing that makes you better than noobs is just dash dancing. Once you can just wait for them to make a move and punish, you've got them figured out.

 

[Sempiternity]

Spamming is pretty easy to overcome, but it's still damn frustrating, annoying, and no fun to play against. I would much rather have a competitive, high (relative) level match against somebody my skill level where we all use awesome ATs, don't camp, don't spam, and otherwise don't play like an *******.

Alas, that's an idealized version of my perfect Smash match, and all my friends spam the C-stick like it's their job and roll like it's their second job. It's not that difficult to counter, but the playstyle just isn't fun. I don't enjoy baiting every single attack, then going in for an attack myself. Nobody ever approaches on the C-stick level and once, just ONCE, I want somebody to fly across the map at me with a Falcon Nair or something. But I only get the elbow.

I just feel like it's hurting my overall skill to play like an ******* myself to counter the *******ry of other people and I'm not getting any better.

More of a rant, and probably why I like 64 better. Sooooo much easier to punish spamming >

 

[Sinji]

Just use oos options. I highly doubt the spammers he described can JC grab or even dash dance properly.

 

[Varist]

I've pretty much mastered movement with Falco. I put a lot of time into learning jump heights and rhythms to reach certain heights on BF (harder on FD), put a lot of time into learning DI options for pillar, a lot of practice into muscle memorying low FF'd lasers to actually hit the other guy, and a lot of practice into waveland timings.

Then my little brother picks Fox and dash attacks me all game, and uses upsmash when he forces a double jump. I can't even shield and turn around and grab him because he just uses up/fsmash when he goes through me with dash attack. ****'s pretty gay guys. anyway. my little story.

 

[Wolfy!]

I have a friend who I play with pretty much all the time that spams and rolls quite a bit. Basically, I'd just focus on developing spacing and punishing his moves, as well as mixing up my tactics. Eventually, he started learning from me and started to imitate what I was doing, albeit in his own style. He still has quite a bit of work to go, but the fact that I could pretty much dance around him with Falcon and not get hit was a good enough incentive for him to mix up his game and try new things. My little story, lol.

 

[Removed By Request]

Try shield grabbing. A lot of inexperienced players will just rush in trying to attack.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

This thread is for you

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310776

 

[Kason Birdman]

So according to this thread, Hungrybox is bad.

hbox doesn't spam, he has thousands of predetermined equations ready before a match that tell him when and where to bair. if you watch closely while he plays sometimes you can actually see him mumbling the equations as he solves them in his head.


but yeah spamming shl with falco will **** them lol. and so will run up sheild then punish as many have said. pretty much just use your sheild a lot. since you know they just mindlessly spam c-stick dont just run up in to it. wait for them to come to you, get em where you want em.

 

[Krynxe]

Eventually, he started learning from me and started to imitate what I was doing, albeit in his own style

I'm trolling it up spamming bairs with jiggs - good spacing, punishing everything my friend does with a bair and all that fun stuff. A few rounds later, my he's spamming fairs with his g&w and getting really good spacing. And from there, 8 minute matches until I changed up my game lol

 

[Wolfy!]

I'm trolling it up spamming bairs with jiggs - good spacing, punishing everything my friend does with a bair and all that fun stuff. A few rounds later, my he's spamming fairs with his g&w and getting really good spacing. And from there, 8 minute matches until I changed up my game lol

lol, I do the same with Falcon's aerials. Knees all day. Then he figures what I'm doing and starts spacing it properly, then I gotta mix it up.

 

[King Funk]

Well to be honest, if you're constantly reminding your "spamming friends" that you use advanced techniques and everything and still lose to them, it means you're pretty bad yourself and you're making them want to go on with what they do.

Technique doesn't make anyone automatically good. You shouldn't be regarded as a better player just for using them or attempting to use them (because I doubt you're using them well and in correct situations).

If you want to convince those friends of yours, just beat them. There's no better argument than that. When you beat them, they'll finally ask themselves what they can do to become better players (or they'll quit).

 

[matchstick]

I have a friend like that, he plays fox and all he does is Usmash.
he thinks that it's enough that tech skill doesn't matter, I tend to give him a leeway whenever we play because of the skill gap between us, however whenever he gets cocky i show him what's up.

all you can really do is try to get faster (with tech like everyone above said SFFL, jc grabs etc), but as you get faster you need to get smarter with what you're doing as well. React to situations don't just follow the same strategy over and over.

 

[ThatsPM]

Thanks for all the feedback. I've realized I was kinda spamming some advanced techs as a way of getting the best of them, but that's not any better. anywho, I'm still trying to improve, it shows, but I'm not all that better either. Some don't like playing with me because of my "cheap tricks" (which has been shown by them calling me gay and annoying), but some do want to improve so that's nice. We might go to a place closeby where some smashers from this forum hang at, so maybe that can help too

1-2 questions though : how do I implement new spacing techniques into my gameplay? I have a really hard time using any wavedashes or even dash dancing whilst playing (it might be cause no one else does it anyways).

what's my best approach against fox/falco as ganondorf? I can barely punish those guys most of the time =/

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

best approach
dont pick fd

 

[Massive]

1-2 questions though : how do I implement new spacing techniques into my gameplay? I have a really hard time using any wavedashes or even dash dancing whilst playing (it might be cause no one else does it anyways).

what's my best approach against fox/falco as ganondorf? I can barely punish those guys most of the time =/

Wavedashes take a few months to implement into gameplay if you're new to them. I'd say the average is somewhere between 4-6 months before you can wavedash reliably as part of your playstyle (practicing frequently). That's purely anecdotal from the newbies I've seen go from "what's wavedashing" to "waveshines are easy!", though.

Dashdancing should only take a week or two to incorporate, play a character like Captain Falcon and do that instead of standing still, it makes it easier to understand what it's all about (run in and out of range to bait an attack, punish).

Gannondorf's approach vs Falco/Fox for lower level gameplay will involve being airborne, usually exploiting the longer-than-it-appears active time of forward-air. Also Forward-B is particularly effective vs newbies. If you can grab, dthrow/uthrow to bair or fsmash is good as well. Gannondorf can also live for a very long time due to the recovery options added by his down-b (it gives you your second jump back, if you didn't know).

However, by far the most important thing you should be practicing is L-cancelling. It will prove exceedingly helpful since most of Gannondorf's aerials are incredibly laggy.