My Smash 4 Pessimism...

[Psymon]

First thing's first, I want to say that, as a whole, I love the Super Smash Bros. franchise. Smash Bros. games are by far my favourite, and I have had countless fun times playing the games with friends.

That being said, I feel that there is a lot of misdirection in the way that Masahiro Sakurai approaches the game's development.

I'm not going to make this too much of an essay, but I would like to express some of my concerns about the upcoming Smash Bros. game, and I would very much like to hear your opinions on the game itself, as well as on my views.

#1 - The 3DS is holding back the potential of the Wii U version.
Sakurai has already mentioned that the character roster will be the same on BOTH consoles, and that, due to the hardware limitations of the 3DS, characters such as the Ice Climbers will be harder to incorporate into the game because of the way they link together. I would hate to see characters that have already been successfully included in previous Smash Bros. games to be discontinued simply because Nintendo have decided to release the next edition on a handheld platform as well as their new home console.

#2 - Too many 'niche' characters.
I think it's fair to say that, for a lot of us in the Smash community (if not most of us), the announcement of the Wii Fit Trainer was incredibly disappointing. The character roster is already seeming to be uncomfortably cramped due to the 3DS's capabilities, and to have a slot taken up by character as nonsensical as the Wii Fit Trainer was, to be honest, upsetting. Characters such as Ray MKII from Custom Robo, and Tails from Sonic the Headgehog would be far more fan-friendly, and would have more interesting/relatable movesets because of their place in the games they already existed in. Obviously, Ridley would have been a more preferable choice to a lot of people, but, alas, we have been stuck with Wii Fit Trainer. Lets just hope that the upcoming newcomers are chosen more carefully than the most recent one. I am, personally, pleased that Megaman has made it, and Villager's moveset seems set to bring a lot of depth to the game, but if a player is going to be able to play Super Smash Bros. with their own Mii...I may just break down and cry, never to play the game again.

#3 - "Lets ruin the game by adding..."
Tripping. We all hated it. It was the biggest downfall in Brawl, and its inclusion was nothing short of ********. I pray, for all of us in the Smash Community, that Sakurai doesn't plan on replacing it with any more nonsensical physics in the next edition of the game. I'm glad that tripping itself has been removed, but I have no doubt that someone somewhere could conjure up something just as disgusting to take it's place. Lets pray that doesn't happen.

#4 - "People can play online...NAAAAT"
The online play in Brawl was shocking. Like, really frickin' bad. Disgusting, even. And, from looking at how poor the Wii U is at connecting to ANY sort of online material wirelessly, I am worried that the next Smash Bros. will suffer when trying to be played online. I have no doubt that it will always be preferable to play tournaments inb person, as the game is so fast-paces, that even a few frames of lag can ruin a player's game, but it would be nice to know that you can choose to play a casual game with friends who aren't always going to be in the same room as you without having to wait 5 minutes to use a smash attack.

I apologise for all of the negativity written above, but I felt the need to express my thoughts, as I really do hope that the next Smash Bros. proves me wrong, and does in fact prove itself as the best game in the series so far (Melee being my personal favourite so far).

Any thoughts/comments/criticisms welcome, but lets try to keep it civilised, and not sink down so low as to start hating on one another for expressing out thoughts.

Peace!

Psymon.

 

[Orngeblu]

I feel it's just going to be a Brawl 2.0 with new characters. (and possibly balancing characters, new stages, you get the idea) Still don't understand how Sakurai is making the game any faster than it is when he says it'll be "inbetween Brawl and Melee", it's hard for me to believe really, not until I see it.

 

[eshu125]

Hmm well I'm just gonna respond to each of your points:

1. Yeah it is upsetting, but while it is a hard sacrifice it will be awesome to have a mobile smash game. Plus Olimar is already confirmed so the only character they might have issues with is Ice Climbers.

2. You have to recognize that there is nothing but bias in your second post. People need to acknowledge that Wii Fit Trainer is a core part of Nintendo now due to Wii Fit sales and therefore deserves a spot in their [characters from different popular nintendo franchises beat up each other] game.

3. Tripping is confirmed to be removed.

4. I think in all fighting games online play is always gonna be a bit laggy because there are so many inputs coming out per second that I don't think it's possible for it to keep 100%. Latency is latency and it cannot be removed. However, wii's online was horrendous so Brawl online being abysmal wasn't a shocker to me at all. I believe that smash 4's online will be a lot more..sustainable.

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

I feel like all of this has been cover too many times.

Totally subjective, but Wii Fit Trainer is way more deserving than anyone from Chibi Robo and Tails. Just saying.

Also tripping has already been confirmed out.

 

[nat pagle]

1. Nintendo wouldn't have allowed Sakurai to make two games if they didn't feel he could make them great. Heck, Sakurai himself wouldn't have done it if he didn't feel that way. And I don't think important characters will get cut as much as the characters from a previous era (Lucario, Ike, etc.). Sakurai has been wanting to make a handheld version since the DS. And there's no way of telling Sakurai wouldn't have just made the same Wii U version of Smash if it were by itself to save on work and time.

2. Pichu and Mr Game and Watch were arguably the most ridiculous characters from Melee. Sakurai is just adding a fun character or two to the game, it's not like he's trying to destroy it and make it a complete joke.

3. Tripping was confirmed removed.

4. Kid Icarus and SSF4 were fine online, I'm sure Smash can handle it.

 

[Psymon]

Hmm well I'm just gonna respond to each of your points:

1. Yeah it is upsetting, but while it is a hard sacrifice it will be awesome to have a mobile smash game. Plus Olimar is already confirmed so the only character they might have issues with is Ice Climbers.

2. You have to recognize that there is nothing but bias in your second post. People need to acknowledge that Wii Fit Trainer is a core part of Nintendo now due to Wii Fit sales and therefore deserves a spot in their [characters from different popular nintendo franchises beat up each other] game.

3. Tripping is confirmed to be removed.

4. I think in all fighting games online play is always gonna be a bit laggy because there are so many inputs coming out per second that I don't think it's possible for it to keep 100%. Latency is latency and it cannot be removed. However, wii's online was horrendous so Brawl online being abysmal wasn't a shocker to me at all. I believe that smash 4's online will be a lot more..sustainable.

1. I agree, a mobile Smash game will be awesome, I just hope that the inclusion of the 3DS doesn't jeopardise the possible quality on the Wii U.

2. Fair point, it is subjective. I just know a lot of people who were upset with her inclusion (admittedly, me included), and felt that I should include it. I hope that she plays well though, and I'm sure that I'll warm to her as time goes on.

3. Awesome. Thanks for letting me know =)

4. True, I don't think fighting games will be able to have fluid online play any time soon, but it could have been so much better on the Wii. Fingers crossed for the new one, eh?

Thanks for your feedback, dude =)

 

[Psymon]

I feel it's just going to be a Brawl 2.0 with new characters. (and possibly balancing characters, new stages, you get the idea) Still don't understand how Sakurai is making the game any faster than it is when he says it'll be "inbetween Brawl and Melee", it's hard for me to believe really, not until I see it.

Yeah, I don't get that either. Increasing falling speed and overall lag-times on moves perhaps? We'll have to wait and see.

 

[Psymon]

1. Nintendo wouldn't have allowed Sakurai to make two games if they didn't feel he could make them great. Heck, Sakurai himself wouldn't have done it if he didn't feel that way. And I don't think important characters will get cut as much as the characters from a previous era (Lucario, Ike, etc.). Sakurai has been wanting to make a handheld version since the DS. And there's no way of telling Sakurai wouldn't have just made the same Wii U version of Smash if it were by itself to save on work and time.

2. Pichu and Mr Game and Watch were arguably the most ridiculous characters from Melee. Sakurai is just adding a fun character or two to the game, it's not like he's trying to destroy it and make it a complete joke.

3. Tripping was confirmed removed.

4. Kid Icarus and SSF4 were fine online, I'm sure Smash can handle it.

1. I hope you're right. I would love it if he could do them both justice. I just have to put more faith in HIM I guess =/

2. We have different views on the word 'fun', but I can see the novelty in G&W and (especially) Pichu, so I see where you're coming from.

3. Again, awesome.

4. I hope you're right, it deserves to have a decent online mode.

 

[nat pagle]

1. I hope you're right. I would love it if he could do them both justice. I just have to put more faith in HIM I guess =/

I think he will with Namco Bandai's help.

2. We have different views on the word 'fun', but I can see the novelty in G&W and (especially) Pichu, so I see where you're coming from.

Yeah, seeing Pichu's ridiculously underpowered moves really gave me doubts as to why it was included.

3. Again, awesome.

I was so happy when I read that in his interview XD

4. I hope you're right, it deserves to have a decent online mode.

It has to, Nintendo can't afford to drop the ball again when it comes to online play. Wii was somewhat acceptable because it didn't have the online focus and machine power as 360/PS3, but this generation gives no excuse for not trying.

 

[Psymon]

I feel like all of this has been cover too many times.

Totally subjective, but Wii Fit Trainer is way more deserving than anyone from Chibi Robo and Tails. Just saying.

Also tripping has already been confirmed out.

Okay, so maybe not Ray MKII or Tails, but a character that Smash fans are more likely to WANT in the game as opposed to what the average new-age Nintendo fan RECOGNISES. I can see from your signature that you have good taste in possible characters for the next Smash Bros.

Krystal, Toad (possibly deconfirmed thanks to Peach's Neutral-B), and the return of Mewtwo would all be preferable to the Wii Fit Trainer in my eyes.

So glad that tripping has been deconfirmed. PHEW!

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

#1 - I would hate to see characters that have already been successfully included in previous Smash Bros. games to be discontinued simply because Nintendo have decided to release the next edition on a handheld platform as well as their new home console.

Have you considered the expense of not having the Smash title on a handheld medium? This is the first time they have really been able to do a simultaneous Smash development, much less on this scale. I know I am using crazy parallel dimension hindsight bias here, but a lot of people would be upset if it was not coming to the 3DS. I don't even think it's a matter what direction they're taking the game - the 3DS is considerably outselling everything, they may not have a choice. That said, players probably don't want a gimped copy and Sakurai is right to think a lot of people have an emotional attachment to the characters they play (in whatever respect) so he is trying to keep them as consistent as possible. I also doubt it would stop people from being upset if there were simply more characters on the Wii U version, as irrational as that sounds.

Also, the potential that the 3DS is going to hold the Wii U version back is looking less bleak every day as we see more graphically technical aspects revealed. Olimar has been revealed after all.

#2 - Too many 'niche' characters.
I think it's fair to say that, for a lot of us in the Smash community (if not most of us), the announcement of the Wii Fit Trainer was incredibly disappointing. The character roster is already seeming to be uncomfortably cramped due to the 3DS's capabilities, and to have a slot taken up by character as nonsensical as the Wii Fit Trainer was, to be honest, upsetting. Characters such as Ray MKII from Custom Robo, and Tails from Sonic the Headgehog would be far more fan-friendly, and would have more interesting/relatable movesets because of their place in the games they already existed in.

A lot, but definitely not most of us - the Wii Fit Trainer is the most talked about character after Mega Man, and most post-shock reactions have been warm and she's even getting her own fanbase going. You can call her nonsensical, but at the end of the day it's the unique, fun character inclusions that count and not someone's fanboy wishes. You shouldn't dislike a character "if it could have been someone else," that's just taking the characters that are already in Smash Bros. for granted.

Tripping. We all hated it. It was the biggest downfall in Brawl, and its inclusion was nothing short of ********. I pray, for all of us in the Smash Community, that Sakurai has removed this, and doesn't plan on replacing it with any more nonsensical physics in the next edition of the game.

For someone who is aware about the 3DS limitations debate it's strange you don't seem to know that Sakurai has already stated tripping isn't coming back.

#4 - "People can play online...NAAAAT"
The online play in Brawl was shocking. Like, really frickin' bad. Disgusting, even. And, from looking at how poor the Wii U is at connecting to ANY sort of online material wirelessly, I am worried that the next Smash Bros. will suffer when trying to be played online. I have no doubt that it will always be preferable to play tournaments inb person, as the game is so fast-paces, that even a few frames of lag can ruin a player's game, but it would be nice to know that you can choose to play a casual game with friends who aren't always going to be in the same room as you without having to wait 5 minutes to use a smash attack.

This seems more like a rant about Brawl than actually considering whether or not Smash 4 will have good online play. I don't know many fighting games that actually do have a stellar online service and Nintendo has a history of getting left in the internet dust, so it isn't unwarranted to think it will be bad, but I don't think it's worth the worry that it will be as bad as Brawl's.

 

[Psymon]

Have you considered the expense of not having the Smash title on a handheld medium? This is the first time they have really been able to do a simultaneous Smash development, much less on this scale. I know I am using crazy parallel dimension hindsight bias here, but a lot of people would be upset if it was not coming to the 3DS. I don't even think it's a matter what direction they're taking the game - the 3DS is considerably outselling everything, they may not have a choice. That said, players probably don't want a gimped copy and Sakurai is right to think a lot of people have an emotional attachment to the characters they play (in whatever respect) so he is trying to keep them as consistent as possible. I also doubt it would stop people from being upset if there were simply more characters on the Wii U version, as irrational as that sounds.

Also, the potential that the 3DS is going to hold the Wii U version back is looking less bleak every day as we see more graphically technical aspects revealed. Olimar has been revealed after all.



A lot, but definitely not most of us - the Wii Fit Trainer is the most talked about character after Mega Man, and most post-shock reactions have been warm and she's even getting her own fanbase going. You can call her nonsensical, but at the end of the day it's the unique, fun character inclusions that count and not someone's fanboy wishes. You shouldn't dislike a character "if it could have been someone else," that's just taking the characters that are already in Smash Bros. for granted.



For someone who is aware about the 3DS limitations debate it's strange you don't seem to know that Sakurai has already stated tripping isn't coming back.



This seems more like a rant about Brawl than actually considering whether or not Smash 4 will have good online play. I don't know many fighting games that actually do have a stellar online service and Nintendo has a history of getting left in the internet dust, so it isn't unwarranted to think it will be bad, but I don't think it's worth the worry that it will be as bad as Brawl's.

All fair points. I'm pretty sure I read something about Tripping being removed, but wasn't sure if it had come straight from an official source or not, so probably just looked past it as to not get my hopes up. I agree that there may not have been a way of keeping everyone happy, even if the 3DS and Wii U versions had been different, and it makes sense to release a successful franchise on a successful console. I just hope that one doesn't drag the other down - I'd rather have one very good game than two average games across two consoles, regardless of their individual popularity.

Thanks for your feedback though, dude. Well debated =)

 

[nat pagle]

I like you, managing to not turn this into a flame war and all.

 

[Psymon]

I like you, managing to not turn this into a flame war and all.

Trying my best =P. I'm trying to take other peoples opinions on board as well. I'm learning more about the game and the community through doing this, so it has already been worth it - finding out that tripping is definitely not going to be in the next Smash Bros. has made my day.

 

[Morbi]

I actually have to agree with a few of your points. I do not like the 3DS limitations. The common consensus is that the 3DS won't hold back the Wii U version. That is one of the most repugnant things I have ever attempted to consider. There is no doubt in my mind that it is going to attenuate the level of devotion the developers could have focused on with just one version. I was actually pretty disappointed when Wii Fit Trainer was announced alongside Villager. However, after contemplating the potential that she offers, I am now more excited than ever. She might become my main. Villager was made not only acceptable, but preferable thanks to his hilarious head-canon. I can't wait to play the murderous little psychopath.

There is another concern that I have that hasn't been addressed to much. I understand it is VERY controversial. However, I will bring it up. This is the 4th installment of Smash. These games tend to only come out once a generation. Hence, they are not milked. The games will be played for years and years to come. It isn't like Call of Duty where the game transitions to a new version yearly. So why are the games so similar. Not the games actually, the characters. The characters are going to play EXACTLY the same. I have to commend Sakurai for changing up Bowser. That is super excited. It makes me believe that he is competent and willing to change. Then... a few months later he reveals Luigi... without a Poltergust 3000. This is unacceptable to me. A pseudo-clone with the POTENTIAL to be the most unique character in the game, and Sakurai doesn't make any changes?

Allow me to reiterate. I understand why Sakurai cannot simply change up every character. There are fans of that play-style. People who main that character in every game. If you change up the character too much, people will not want to play that character anymore. That happened to me first hand with Link. They changed him WAY too much in Brawl. I no longer have the temptation to play him. But lets be honest, Melee is still relevant today. Brawl will still be relevant... probably until the next Smash after Smash 4. So I do not want to see more of the same with a little bit of polish. Especially for a game with a 3-6 year development cycle.

Lets be honest, Call of Duty changes more every iteration. That is just simply embarrassing. *Just my opinion*

 

[nat pagle]

Then... a few months later he reveals Luigi... without a Poltergust 3000. This is unacceptable to me. A pseudo-clone with the POTENTIAL to be the most unique character in the game, and Sakurai doesn't make any changes?

He may very well change before Smash is released. And has Sakurai shown us his full moveset yet? I remember Mario's FLUD just pops out of his infinite pocket.

 

[Renji64]

I'm still unsure of how this game is gonna be not much gameplay details. Between Brawl and Melee Speed would that be? N64? I'm from the gameplay it looks like brawl 2.0 which is saddening but it is still in development but i better keep my expectations low i learned my lesson with brawl.

 

[nat pagle]

I'm still unsure of how this game is gonna be not much gameplay details. Between Brawl and Melee Speed would that be? N64? I'm from the gameplay it looks like brawl 2.0 which is saddening but it is still in development but i better keep my expectations low i learned my lesson with brawl.

I'm hoping they have Melee speed, weight, and hitstun. But N64 was in a league of its own....and not in a good way. That game had more hitstun than Brawl has MK mains.

 

[Renji64]

I'm hoping they have Melee speed, weight, and hitstun. But N64 was in a league of its own....and not in a good way. That game had more hitstun than Brawl has MK mains.

I learned that lesson of n64 hitstun yesterday i never played a good pikachu oh man i got exposed. I'm just hoping that characters are all viable like Project M. Faster not melee faster but close and No Fludd for mario and Falco's Down B back to normal without a kick. Falcos brawl changes i hated.

 

[Shun_one]

...Am I the only one who read "3DS limitations" as not "the hardware can't handle it" but "designing a Smash Bros for a smaller screen means certain concessions have to be made in favor of game-play visibility"? Looking at other 3DS titles (Tekken & Street Fighter), I don't think space is an issue and having actually thought about it, Ice Climbers only 4-player free-4-alls are very hectic; even more so than normal battles. I don't really have any astonishing "proof", but this is what the statement meant to me. Especially given how the Wii U version seems to be chugging along at a happy pace, with the 3DS one potentially releasing after the Wii U game in order to give them time to work out some design things.

So why are the games so similar. Not the games actually, the characters. The characters are going to play EXACTLY the same. I have to commend Sakurai for changing up Bowser. That is super excited. It makes me believe that he is competent and willing to change. Then... a few months later he reveals Luigi... without a Poltergust 3000. This is unacceptable to me. A pseudo-clone with the POTENTIAL to be the most unique character in the game, and Sakurai doesn't make any changes?

I'm a bit confused here, because you start off by saying the characters are going to play exactly the same, then mention a character who is most certainly not the same (and he isn't the only one). It's as if you're addressing your own concern here, but then siting the character you think should change hasn't changed, so everyone is in peril of being the same. Luigi's history goes much deeper than the Luigi's Mansion series, where he's only appeared twice compared to his long history of games.

 

[N7Adept]

You make a fair point about Luigi's history going deeper than 2 games. However, by the same token, shouldn't that logic also apply to Mario and F.L.U.D.D.? Luigi's Poltergust is much more associated with him than F.L.U.D.D. is with Mario, first of all because he's used it in more games, and secondly because both of those games were way more significant for Luigi than Sunshine was for Mario (in that you don't often see Luigi on his own, Mario's always hogging the spotlight in most games he's in).

And you're right, it is subjective what he was saying about preferring a change to Luigi, but I think this is a subjective opinion that most would share. None of us like clones; we want characters to be as distinguished from each other as possible. Also, do we really want to waste one of Luigi's special moves on a down air that Mario can do? If we're going to give subjective opinions though, let me throw this one out there: I hate F.L.U.D.D. and it is not worthy of being one of Mario's moves, especially with the 2 Galaxy games under his belt that are the best thing to happen to the Mario series since Mario 64.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

From a gameplay perspective, Luigi fills a niche all his own really. He has super low range and very mediocre mobility, but his attack speed and attack power are both extremely high. There isn't another character like that, and his super low traction is a gameplay niche all its own (it affects the shield game for him even more than Yoshi's unique shield does for Yoshi really). I don't think Luigi needs any changes for the sheer purpose of justifying his inclusion as a gameplay element. Conflating Luigi's down special with Mario's down aerial is just more flavor talk. Sure they have similar animations, but the actual gameplay function of those moves is completely different. Luigi's is a mobility tool with marginal attack power. Mario's is a multi-hitting aerial that's useful for pressure. Likewise, if you move past flavor, I'm not sure what Luigi's goofy vacuum would even do for him. Is the idea to draw people in to be hit by his various powerful close range moves? It's hard to imagine a "reverse FLUDD" not being either super good or super bad, both of which would be bad for the game. In short, I don't think it's bad that Luigi is not getting a move like this that we've seen.

In general, I'm not so fond of pessimism on smash 4. Let's be straight about it. We're all on this site because we love smash bros. That means at some point in the past, Sakurai and his dev team made at least one game (and for most of us several games) that we thought were really great. Why not trust it will happen again? There aren't any really serious red flags that development is going awry; in fact, most of what we've seen suggests that a lot of good decisions are being made. They have lots of resources, they're showing us that they're spending them wisely, and they are taking their time. Stuff like the roster is just being silly to worry about; who even cares which characters are in the game so long as the way they all play is awesome? Have some faith; I think it's a safe bet that the game is going to be great, and our only real question is how great.

 

[Wegenbarth]

You call this Pessimism?

My biggest fear is that it will a defense focused game again with Powershields, slow pace, floaty characters, nonexisting hitstun and no knockback.
Brawl just can't get me to play and getting addicted for some matches like Melee does for me. Even yesterday.
Hearing that it becomes a bit faster sounds good, but Sakurai seems to have forgotten about the user letter which addressed that online play is focusing way too much on defense.

 

[Zonderion]

I don't know if this holds any water for Sm4sh, but I have played COD online on the Wii U. I did not notice any lag whatsoever. I played a lot, and there did not seem to be any input lag. How that translates to Sm4sh, I dunno. But at least there is hopes that the online play will be better than Brawl.

 

[DonkaFjord]

1. It was originally just going to be on the 3DS, so its either 3DS+WiiU or just the 3DS version take your pick.
2. The casual side of nintendo is still an important part of nintendo as well.
3. Its already confirmed to be removed.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Looks like my general sentiments towards the OP have already been covered so instead I'll direct my intention to the following post instead...

There is another concern that I have that hasn't been addressed to much. I understand it is VERY controversial. However, I will bring it up. This is the 4th installment of Smash. These games tend to only come out once a generation. Hence, they are not milked. The games will be played for years and years to come. It isn't like Call of Duty where the game transitions to a new version yearly. So why are the games so similar. Not the games actually, the characters. The characters are going to play EXACTLY the same. I have to commend Sakurai for changing up Bowser. That is super excited. It makes me believe that he is competent and willing to change. Then... a few months later he reveals Luigi... without a Poltergust 3000. This is unacceptable to me. A pseudo-clone with the POTENTIAL to be the most unique character in the game, and Sakurai doesn't make any changes?

Allow me to reiterate. I understand why Sakurai cannot simply change up every character. There are fans of that play-style. People who main that character in every game. If you change up the character too much, people will not want to play that character anymore. That happened to me first hand with Link. They changed him WAY too much in Brawl. I no longer have the temptation to play him. But lets be honest, Melee is still relevant today. Brawl will still be relevant... probably until the next Smash after Smash 4. So I do not want to see more of the same with a little bit of polish. Especially for a game with a 3-6 year development cycle.

I'm going to have to disagree with this post.

Although it is definitely important to heavily fine tune certain mechanical aspects about returning characters that clearly need changes (such as Ganondorf and Bowser), it's equally important to maintain a certain level of familiarity among the roster as well. Pretty much every major fighting game franchise in video game history proves this. Look at Street Fighter for example: staple characters such as Ryu, Chun-Li, Dhalsim, Sagat, Blanka, Ken, and many more have mostly maintained the same movesets they've had since the series first started.

With every new fighting game there needs to be a healthy amount of returning characters that still "play" the same no matter how much the mechanics have changed throughout the series. This allows veteran players to have a much easier/smoother time transitioning into the new mechanics. When Smash 4 comes around I'm expecting Mario to still play like Mario, DK to play like DK, Pikachu like Pikachu, etc. Giving long time veteran characters like Luigi an entirely revamped move set based around his vacuum just for the sake of doing something new is unnecessary considering his play style is already very unique and a staple of the Smash franchise. With characters like Luigi you want to make MINIMAL changes that won't tamper with familiarity but lead to DRASTIC results to give the character a slightly different feel. Luigi's up-B change from Smash 64 to Melee is a great example of this... The move stayed the same, but had very different properties (64's up B had Mario's coin effect while Melee incorporated the awesome sweet spot effect).

But it's not like every veteran will remain exactly the same... Bowser's been drastically changed already and there are likely more changes to come. We'll just have to wait and see who got revamped, but it's very unrealistic and counter-productive to have every veteran play differently just for the sake of changing things up.

 

[nat pagle]

1. It was originally just going to be on the 3DS, so its either 3DS+WiiU or just the 3DS version take your pick.

It was? Did he say that in an interview, because I don't recall it.

 

[DonkaFjord]

It was? Did he say that in an interview, because I don't recall it.

http://www.vg247.com/2013/06/26/super-smash-bros-3ds-developed-to-evolve-series-says-sakurai/
http://nintendoeverything.com/sakur...dlc-patching-why-villagertrainer-are-in-more/
Its the same interview

 

[Renji64]

It is hard to believe smash 4 is gonna be good due to the interviews i read. Sakurai says melee was the sharpest in the series never expect another one because it is too hard. Then brawl was for casuals which explains why i hate it so much. Now he is gonna please both crowds does he know what the other side want other than a faster game? I doubt it, It is gonna be faster than brawl yay but other than still get the feeling it is gonna be medicore.

 

[Morbi]

Looks like my general sentiments towards the OP have already been covered so instead I'll direct my intention to the following post instead...



I'm going to have to disagree with this post.

Although it is definitely important to heavily fine tune certain mechanical aspects about returning characters that clearly need changes (such as Ganondorf and Bowser), it's equally important to maintain a certain level of familiarity among the roster as well. Pretty much every major fighting game franchise in video game history proves this. Look at Street Fighter for example: staple characters such as Ryu, Chun-Li, Dhalsim, Sagat, Blanka, Ken, and many more have mostly maintained the same movesets they've had since the series first started.

With every new fighting game there needs to be a healthy amount of returning characters that still "play" the same no matter how much the mechanics have changed throughout the series. This allows veteran players to have a much easier/smoother time transitioning into the new mechanics. When Smash 4 comes around I'm expecting Mario to still play like Mario, DK to play like DK, Pikachu like Pikachu, etc. Giving long time veteran characters like Luigi an entirely revamped move set based around his vacuum just for the sake of doing something new is unnecessary considering his play style is already very unique and a staple of the Smash franchise. With characters like Luigi you want to make MINIMAL changes that won't tamper with familiarity but lead to DRASTIC results to give the character a slightly different feel. Luigi's up-B change from Smash 64 to Melee is a great example of this... The move stayed the same, but had very different properties (64's up B had Mario's coin effect while Melee incorporated the awesome sweet spot effect).

But it's not like every veteran will remain exactly the same... Bowser's been drastically changed already and there are likely more changes to come. We'll just have to wait and see who got revamped, but it's very unrealistic and counter-productive to have every veteran play differently just for the sake of changing things up.

Yeah. You are right. I just feel like I am getting a little bored of Smash. I have been playing ever since the first one came out. I just want to see something new. To be honest, if I feel like playing Captain Falcon, I really don't need to look for the new Smash game for that. I already have 3 games where he plays extremely similar. I might start to main Bowser simply because he offers something new. So following that logic, I just need to play a lot of newcomers. I mean I have been maining Link for close to a decade. It was time for me to make a change. In Brawl I don't even have a designated main. I mean there are characters I know I liked such as Lucario and Ike. However, every time I played I attempted to try someone new. I was a little disappointed that most of the characters that I enjoyed in Melee were nerfed to hell in Brawl. They changed a lot of the things I loved about the character. Luigi feels like a completely different character.

It was just a thread on pessimism. I definitely have enough of that. I am just worried that more of the same won't be good for me. I could be wrong, it could still have a lot of fun and great features. Perhaps a refined multiplayer? That would increase my longevity to enjoy the game. However, if Smash 4 is just Brawl 2.0... It might be time for me to move on. I am hoping that this game just blows me away though. I bought a Wii U in anticipation. Hopefully that wasn't an unwarranted impulse buy.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Yeah. You are right. I just feel like I am getting a little bored of Smash. I have been playing ever since the first one came out. I just want to see something new. To be honest, if I feel like playing Captain Falcon, I really don't need to look for the new Smash game for that. I already have 3 games where he plays extremely similar. I might start to main Bowser simply because he offers something new. So following that logic, I just need to play a lot of newcomers. I mean I have been maining Link for close to a decade. It was time for me to make a change. In Brawl I don't even have a designated main. I mean there are characters I know I liked such as Lucario and Ike. However, every time I played I attempted to try someone new. I was a little disappointed that most of the characters that I enjoyed in Melee were nerfed to hell in Brawl. They changed a lot of the things I loved about the character. Luigi feels like a completely different character.

It was just a thread on pessimism. I definitely have enough of that. I am just worried that more of the same won't be good for me. I could be wrong, it could still have a lot of fun and great features. Perhaps a refined multiplayer? That would increase my longevity to enjoy the game. However, if Smash 4 is just Brawl 2.0... It might be time for me to move on. I am hoping that this game just blows me away though. I bought a Wii U in anticipation. Hopefully that wasn't an unwarranted impulse buy.

I see where you're getting at. Sounds like an easy solution for you would be to stick with the newer characters to find some new mains/secondaries.

I can understand the pessimism in general after Brawl... That game was just a huge letdown from a game play perspective (hell I even thought the Subspace Emissary was mediocre and that was a main selling point). But there's no need to be pessimistic until something that's actually worth being pessimistic about actually comes up. Everything in the OP is premature considering we still know very little about the game. Like literally the only concrete things we know are some characters and stages... That's literally it. Everything else is still up in the air and just speculation at this point.

I have faith in Sakurai.

 

[nat pagle]

It is hard to believe smash 4 is gonna be good due to the interviews i read. Sakurai says melee was the sharpest in the series never expect another one because it is too hard. Then brawl was for casuals which explains why i hate it so much. Now he is gonna please both crowds does he know what the other side want other than a faster game? I doubt it, It is gonna be faster than brawl yay but other than still get the feeling it is gonna be medicore.

If that were the case, Nintendo wouldn't have allowed him to pursue it with a 2014 release date. And Melee was hard because it was launched 2 weeks after GC was and 2 years after Smash 64.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

1# Olimar has already been confirmed for the 3DS, it may have taken a while for him to have been implimented into Smash on the 3DS, but if the 3DS can handle Olimar, I'm pretty sure it can handle the Ice Climbers. If anything, it may slow the development time, taking a bit longer to impliment some characters and features compared to the Wii U Smash, and therefore may affect the release dates as well, however the roster will likely not be affected.

2# I was among those disappointed by Wii Fit Trainer's reveal, but I've started getting used to her. A good amount of fans were disappointed and confused by the addition of characters such as R.O.B. as well. Yet, many people got used to the character and R.O.B. even gained some new fans because of his addition to Smash, who's to say the same won't happen to Wii Fit Trainer? Many people have already taken a liking to her. Lastly, I'm not to fond of the idea of a Mii being added (I was at one point, but not anymore) but I wouldn't break down and cry if they were, the addition of a Mii would NOT be enough to kill the franchise, the Mii still has a good amount of support. And while you may dislike having to fight Miis, keep in mind you don't have to use the Mii yourself, and it's unlikely a character like the Mii would appear in modes like Classic or Adventure under a CPU's control.

3# Tripping has already been confirmed for removal, at least random tripping has.

#4 Have some faith. The developers would be aware of Brawl's terrible wifi, and they would likely do whatever they can to improve it. Though, a game like Smash would likely play out laggy online no matter what, I have faith the wifi won't be nearly as bad as Brawl's was.

 

[BlitznBurst]

Oh for the love of god, UUUGGGHHH

I'm really sick of people going on about BAAAWWW WASTED CHARACTER SLOTS. They are not wasting character slots. If a character is not in the game they were not going to be in the game regardless of what other characters are in the ****ing game. It doesn't work like that, dammit.

Tripping has already been confirmed to be removed and Sakurai acknowledged that it was a mistake. He's acknowledged that the game leaned too far towards one audience and intends to fix that.

The Wii U's online is perfectly fine and if you're having trouble then it's probably your own internet

 

[BlitznBurst]

Oh for the love of god, UUUGGGHHH

I'm really sick of people going on about BAAAWWW WASTED CHARACTER SLOTS. They are not wasting character slots. If a character is not in the game they were not going to be in the game regardless of what other characters are in the ****ing game. It doesn't work like that, dammit.

Tripping has already been confirmed to be removed and Sakurai acknowledged that it was a mistake. He's acknowledged that the game leaned too far towards one audience and intends to fix that.

The Wii U's online is perfectly fine and if you're having trouble then it's probably your own internet

 

[rawrimamonster]

It is hard to believe smash 4 is gonna be good due to the interviews i read. Sakurai says melee was the sharpest in the series never expect another one because it is too hard. Then brawl was for casuals which explains why i hate it so much. Now he is gonna please both crowds does he know what the other side want other than a faster game? I doubt it, It is gonna be faster than brawl yay but other than still get the feeling it is gonna be medicore.

Only reason it will possibly be mediocre is because Nintendo wants money from it like they wanted money from brawl, and they want it to be a system mover for the WiiU. As much as Sakurai is "in charge" he still has to listen to what Nintendo says as they're the publisher and owner of those characters (save for megaman). If Nintendo wants another casual smash to keep the expanded audience then by god Nintendo will get it. Their plans do not include the competitive or semi competitive communities, only money.

 

[Renji64]

Only reason it will possibly be mediocre is because Nintendo wants money from it like they wanted money from brawl, and they want it to be a system mover for the WiiU. As much as Sakurai is "in charge" he still has to listen to what Nintendo says as they're the publisher and owner of those characters (save for megaman). If Nintendo wants another casual smash to keep the expanded audience then by god Nintendo will get it. Their plans do not include the competitive or semi competitive communities, only money.

You gotta great point. I guess it is time to let my dream die of a great smash brothers game and stick with P:M and n64 and melee.

 

[APC99]

I'm going to go with MorbidAltruism here. We need some changes in some certain characters. I don't even mean changing specials, just change a few things. For instance, we need Wario to balance both WarioWare AND Wario Land. Luigi needs some aspects of Luigi's Mansion. Peach desperately needs to get rid of Toad and use Perry the Parasol more often. Ganondorf needs to be given a sword and some magic (although I think changing all the specials besides Choke Hold is a better idea.), Toon Link needs some more items based off the cel-shaded Zelda games. Zelda needs to get a boost to make her as powerful as Sheik, Link needs to be buffed to be stronger, Donkey Kong needs more Country-centric moves now, Yoshi's got to get better recovery plus possibly a better Egg Throw, Falco needs a major decloning (more moves based on spinning, I guess), R.O.B. needs to get a more powerful gyromite, Meta Knight just slowed down a bit, Lucario needs to get some more Pokemon-related moves, Jigglypuff needs some more recovery options, the Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon need to be balanced more, Sonic changed to NOT revolve around spinning, give Snake weapons BESIDES explosives, and finally GIVE THE EARTHBOUND CHARACTERS THEIR OWN MOVES. A lot of characters need to be boosted. Currently, I think only Bowser and Pit are given changes we want. Just balance and flesh out the characters with more moves from their appearances, and give them buffs or nerfs if needed.

 

[Signia]

1# Olimar has already been confirmed for the 3DS, it may have taken a while for him to have been implimented into Smash on the 3DS, but if the 3DS can handle Olimar, I'm pretty sure it can handle the Ice Climbers. If anything, it may slow the development time, taking a bit longer to impliment some characters and features compared to the Wii U Smash, and therefore may affect the release dates as well, however the roster will likely not be affected.

2# I was among those disappointed by Wii Fit Trainer's reveal, but I've started getting used to her. A good amount of fans were disappointed and confused by the addition of characters such as R.O.B. as well. Yet, many people got used to the character and R.O.B. even gained some new fans because of his addition to Smash, who's to say the same won't happen to Wii Fit Trainer? Many people have already taken a liking to her. Lastly, I'm not to fond of the idea of a Mii being added (I was at one point, but not anymore) but I wouldn't break down and cry if they were, the addition of a Mii would NOT be enough to kill the franchise, the Mii still has a good amount of support. And while you may dislike having to fight Miis, keep in mind you don't have to use the Mii yourself, and it's unlikely a character like the Mii would appear in modes like Classic or Adventure under a CPU's control.

3# Tripping has already been confirmed for removal, at least random tripping has.

#4 Have some faith. The developers would be aware of Brawl's terrible wifi, and they would likely do whatever they can to improve it. Though, a game like Smash would likely play out laggy online no matter what, I have faith the wifi won't be nearly as bad as Brawl's was.

The 3DS can probably handle one Ice Climbers, it's probably 4 pairs of Ice Climbers on crazy stages that it might not be able to handle without slowdown/lag.

I also like Wii Fit Trainer's inclusion, because she is a normally proportioned human that will have sensible animations on her attacks. In fact, they will be expressive yoga poses, close to the feel of a real fighting game character.

 

[Orngeblu]

You gotta great point. I guess it is time to let my dream die of a great smash brothers game and stick with P:M and n64 and melee.

Haha, right? I might as well just stick to Project: M because it's satisfying me enough already, THEY ALREADY HAVE ROY CONFIRMED!