My Falco/Fox Critique plz!

[ruhtraeel]

I'm a relatively new player to the competitive scene, I joined smashboards in May of 2010.


So I just went to my first out of city tournament. 9th out of 30, not too bad, and I know that everyone who placed higher are legitimately better players than me.

First match I play really nervously, but it gets better after that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqutrFPKUJg&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daLX-I9C58c&feature=channel_video_title


And crews where I get ***** cause I decided to try and Falco ditto on FD
Shoulda went Fox -_-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt_4t-d7py4&feature=related

21:00


Oh and my controller's L is loose so if I shield randomly that's probably why

Naturally I'm a bit salty about my performance

 

[ruhtraeel]

Anyone? Please?

I especially need help vs Marth and Fox.


General tips would be nice, other than the obvious input messups and stuff, like improvements on things I do too little/too much

 

[Squirt]

I don't have any credentials, but it looks like you need to look for more mind game opportunities. Falco and fox depend on dash dancing ESPECIALY during edgeguarding. (you kinda just stood there) It's amazing how much you can mess with your opponent with a little dash dancing especially when they are not expecting it. When arthur was marth he sucked at defending from your lasers, each hit was an opportunity for a shffl, and each shield was good set up for shffl'ing in then shinecanelgrabbing. (shinecancelgrabbing is so much easier than it looks.) As for getting ***** during the falco ditto: I don't think you did that bad. It looks like you just lost some confidence once you got stuck in those combos. That guy was probably just prepared very well for that match up, that's why he was so aggressive. If you focus more on getting out of those combos than the fact that you are getting comboed you can find opportunities to get out on top. Once you find that opening you gotta bring the fight to him just the same as he is to you, it seemed like each time you did get an opening you didn't have enough momentum to start anything with so he just took back over. Remember it only takes a SHDL to switch the advantage.

Hope that helps and didn't sound dumb.

 

[ruhtraeel]

I don't have any credentials, but it looks like you need to look for more mind game opportunities. Falco and fox depend on dash dancing ESPECIALY during edgeguarding. (you kinda just stood there) It's amazing how much you can mess with your opponent with a little dash dancing especially when they are not expecting it. When arthur was marth he sucked at defending from your lasers, each hit was an opportunity for a shffl, and each shield was good set up for shffl'ing in then shinecanelgrabbing. (shinecancelgrabbing is so much easier than it looks.) As for getting ***** during the falco ditto: I don't think you did that bad. It looks like you just lost some confidence once you got stuck in those combos. That guy was probably just prepared very well for that match up, that's why he was so aggressive. If you focus more on getting out of those combos than the fact that you are getting comboed you can find opportunities to get out on top. Once you find that opening you gotta bring the fight to him just the same as he is to you, it seemed like each time you did get an opening you didn't have enough momentum to start anything with so he just took back over. Remember it only takes a SHDL to switch the advantage.

Hope that helps and didn't sound dumb.

I am Arthur lol, ruhtraeel = Arthur Lee backwards

Allan is a punish machine, so I was really scared to approach with just SHL's. But I watched PP do it a bunch to M2K and figured maybe I shouldn't be so scared

Yeah the first thing I noticed about my matches was that I didn't shinegrab, probably because I never do it (and never feel that it's necessary) against any other matchup except Marth, but I'll definitely start doing it against him.

and by SHDL you mean FHDL? You can't SHDL with Falco...

 

[Squirt]

I am Arthur lol, ruhtraeel = Arthur Lee backwards

Allan is a punish machine, so I was really scared to approach with just SHL's. But I watched PP do it a bunch to M2K and figured maybe I shouldn't be so scared

Yeah the first thing I noticed about my matches was that I didn't shinegrab, probably because I never do it (and never feel that it's necessary) against any other matchup except Marth, but I'll definitely start doing it against him.

and by SHDL you mean FHDL? You can't SHDL with Falco...

OOps I assumed that you were the falco player lol. Yep that's what I meant fhdl. I guess you could work on trying to powershield as marth vs falco but that's pretty hard to do, also I didn't see much chain grabbing maybe get in a bit more of that. Again, I'm new so I can only compare.

 

[ruhtraeel]

OOps I assumed that you were the falco player lol. Yep that's what I meant fhdl. I guess you could work on trying to powershield as marth vs falco but that's pretty hard to do, also I didn't see much chain grabbing maybe get in a bit more of that. Again, I'm new so I can only compare.

I am Arthur (Falco) and I am playing against Allan (Marth) lol, and I play Falco vs Falcon and Fox/Falco vs Marth

My Marth is terrible

Even worse than my G&W

 

[Squirt]

Maybe I should shut up now

 

[ruhtraeel]

Maybe I should shut up now

Lol it's cool

I don't do FHDL that much, it always feels like if I just time a SHL properly I can catch him on the way down and shift momentum, but I dunno, I've done FHDL and sometimes it just works and I don't know why

 

[Squirt]

Lol it's cool

I don't do FHDL that much, it always feels like if I just time a SHL properly I can catch him on the way down and shift momentum, but I dunno, I've done FHDL and sometimes it just works and I don't know why

Yea fhdl is all about practice and confidence. Just when I thought I had mastered it. I start timing it perfectly but reversing so I shoot away from my opponent. Now I've not only killed myself but I look like an idiot as my opponent not only has enough time pause in confusion but also to laugh, mock, and then smack me back off the stage with their slowest move.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Anyone else with tips?

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

stop sucking

 

[ruhtraeel]

stop sucking

Clarke shouldn't you be in the IC's thread

 

[ShroudedOne]

So, I just watched the Falco ditto. It was pretty clear that your opponent understood the ditto better. And on FD, my god...

Falco dittos at neutral...are weird. I'm not sure if many people understand them fully, to be honest (lasers seem to complicate things a lot, because you each can lock each other down in the same way, so you have to be more tricky with them than usual). A few things:

-You just SHL approached him. You'd shoot one, two, maybe three lasers and then aerial in. Notice that your opponent was full hop double lasers, laser dash dancing, and also not shooting them all the time. He kinda just picked you apart, because you did the same approach. Learn to mix up how you shoot your lasers. Vary the timings, and heights, mix in some full jump lasers if they like jumping to avoid lasers. Especially, especially, start laser dash dancing. This mix up will force your opponent to respect you more if you aren't just simply laser > approaching, and it makes your approaches less predictable. If you mix in lasers with DDs, I'm going to be less likely to react and try to hit you after you laser, because you may have already left my effective range. If I throw out a move, and you aren't there, now I'm in a bad position, and you can punish.

In short, play with how you shoot lasers. There are many other ways besides the ones that I mentioned, but laser DD is probably the most important. For the ditto and every other one of his matchups.

-Shine OoS. This is invaluable in spacie MUs, because it's generally the best way to escape their pressure.

That's all I have. Hope it helps.

 

[ruhtraeel]

So, I just watched the Falco ditto. It was pretty clear that your opponent understood the ditto better. And on FD, my god...

Falco dittos at neutral...are weird. I'm not sure if many people understand them fully, to be honest (lasers seem to complicate things a lot, because you each can lock each other down in the same way, so you have to be more tricky with them than usual). A few things:

-You just SHL approached him. You'd shoot one, two, maybe three lasers and then aerial in. Notice that your opponent was full hop double lasers, laser dash dancing, and also not shooting them all the time. He kinda just picked you apart, because you did the same approach. Learn to mix up how you shoot your lasers. Vary the timings, and heights, mix in some full jump lasers if they like jumping to avoid lasers. Especially, especially, start laser dash dancing. This mix up will force your opponent to respect you more if you aren't just simply laser > approaching, and it makes your approaches less predictable. If you mix in lasers with DDs, I'm going to be less likely to react and try to hit you after you laser, because you may have already left my effective range. If I throw out a move, and you aren't there, now I'm in a bad position, and you can punish.

In short, play with how you shoot lasers. There are many other ways besides the ones that I mentioned, but laser DD is probably the most important. For the ditto and every other one of his matchups.

-Shine OoS. This is invaluable in spacie MUs, because it's generally the best way to escape their pressure.

That's all I have. Hope it helps.

Hmm, I've never tried DD lasering, just SHL in one spot. I guess I'll try it now

I think I tried to Shine OoS too much, and just shining > shine OoS, where I would probably be better off just shielding. I remember that every time our hitboxes overlapped I tried to shine OoS but his grounded shine would come out faster.

 

[CK Momentum]

Hmm, I've never tried DD lasering, just SHL in one spot. I guess I'll try it now

I think I tried to Shine OoS too much, and just shining > shine OoS, where I would probably be better off just shielding. I remember that every time our hitboxes overlapped I tried to shine OoS but his grounded shine would come out faster.

I think laser DD will really help you to either keep them stuck in their shield, and you'll be able to get a grab or get them to concede more space, or if they are really at a positional disadvantage u might be able to get them to roll out of their sheild, (i haven't watched the matches, so i dont really know how good ur opponents are oos) but then once u see them do something out of shield, just keep it in a little place in your mind. then when that same situation to happens again u respond and expect them to do the same thing twice (if people find something that works, they are positively conditioned to try it again, because they felt the reward of success). Then you look to safely cover that option. For example if I see someone spot dodge out of sheild i might dash dance drill the next time ive got the advantage and they are in their sheild. If they are adapting well they might roll/wd out of it this time, so i'll cover their original answer to my question, but i'll also be ready with lasers to follow up a horizontal movement.

But seeing dash dance when you are near the ledge in your shield makes me feel like the other person is adding percent. Maybe next time it happens i'll wd oos back to the ledge, then wd the platform reverse laser. I saw that in a shiz wiz video.

I also gotta improve my reaction time. haha.

edit: one part of one sentence

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

Clarke shouldn't you be in the IC's thread

Then how will i beat falco?

 

[ruhtraeel]

Then how will i beat falco?

I'm going G&W against you

 

[Bones0]

I posted a critique in PP's thread in case you missed it. If you have a specific issue vs. Marth that I didn't cover in the other thread just lmk.

 

[ruhtraeel]

0:10 - Make sure you WD out of your shines in the correct direction (or down).
2:50, 3:40, 4:35 - If Falcon is barely making it back like that, just ledge hop dair him.
5:00 - Learn to laser low; that should have been a laser reset -> KO.
7:20 - Don't get greedy and overextend for hits that won't amount to much anyway. You went for that bair after the uair even though it ended up losing stage control and your stock.


General:
- DD WD way more for spacing instead of just shooting lasers. When you want to laser, just make sure you are safe with the SH and don't always approach or laser again immediately after. Laser DD will greatly improve your approach success rate.
- Stop rolling to reset the situation. Any time you did something like miss an aerial or he got a weak hit on you, you would start rolling backwards, but better players will expect that reaction immediately and punish hard.
- Spacing wise, you almost NEVER moved backwards. Every movement you had was towards your opponent aside from a few WD back when you had him cornered at the ledge. Make sure to use DD WD to change up your pace and movement so they can't catch on to the fact that you are approaching all the time.

Ok yeah I played again with Calgary's best today, and after playing about 6 hours straight, I learned to be smart with rolls so I don't get tech chased and stuff. One major thing that I started to do a lot vs Marth was Shine JC grab, which works really well. I haven't really thrown DD into my play yet cause I usually play against Fox and Falcons, where I need to continuously shoot lasers to keep their n-airs grounded.

And yeah that u-air stock I shoulda up-b'ed instead

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

not your falco
stop putting me against all the scrubs jerry

 

[MOJoe]

I need to know what dd laser is. Lol. I'm very new to competitive smash.

 

[MOJoe]

On the Marth match up, I saw you do it once, but make sure you use your laser to stun him and and wavedash to a grab. Then d throw, shine and follow with a dair or bair depending on the situation. And on the falco ditto. Yes, Fox would have been better, but you could have easily won with better edgegaurding. When he is even with the stage and ain the mid of his up B, laser him to knock him down a lttle, then his up B will be much more predictable because he has less room and you'll be able to edge gaurd easily. If they are barely lower than the stage, I tend to time a SH Dair to spike them, but be carful of being too close to the edge so you don't fall. I hope this helped even though you are much better than I.

 

[ruhtraeel]

On the Marth match up, I saw you do it once, but make sure you use your laser to stun him and and wavedash to a grab. Then d throw, shine and follow with a dair or bair depending on the situation. And on the falco ditto. Yes, Fox would have been better, but you could have easily won with better edgegaurding. When he is even with the stage and ain the mid of his up B, laser him to knock him down a lttle, then his up B will be much more predictable because he has less room and you'll be able to edge gaurd easily. If they are barely lower than the stage, I tend to time a SH Dair to spike them, but be carful of being too close to the edge so you don't fall. I hope this helped even though you are much better than I.

You are very right about lasering Falco/Fox in the air to make them recover from below. I was told and learned this within days after that tournament, and I do it more now.

I laser a lot to grab now as well, and more shine JC grab.

D-throw to shine pretty much never works. I now usually only d-throw on platforms to d-smash cause they have nowhere to go.

At the tournament after this, I learned a lot more and now Marth is a lot easier to fight against.

 

[MOJoe]

You are very right about lasering Falco/Fox in the air to make them recover from below. I was told and learned this within days after that tournament, and I do it more now.

I laser a lot to grab now as well, and more shine JC grab.

D-throw to shine pretty much never works. I now usually only d-throw on platforms to d-smash cause they have nowhere to go.

At the tournament after this, I learned a lot more and now Marth is a lot easier to fight against.

What do you mean d throw to shine doesn't work? Because they tech out of it? If so, try to notice early in the match if they tech a lot and if not, d throw, shine, dair or bair them. And I've seemed to have forgotten what jc grab is. Lol.

 

[ruhtraeel]

What do you mean d throw to shine doesn't work? Because they tech out of it? If so, try to notice early in the match if they tech a lot and if not, d throw, shine, dair or bair them. And I've seemed to have forgotten what jc grab is. Lol.

JC Grab = Jump Cancelled grab

Against people with reasonable rolls, there's just too many things they could do to get out of it.

Also even if they roll in the direction you read, for some reason rolling out of d-throw makes them roll like twice as far and you can never catch them not shielding anyways, unless you go for another d-throw

 

[MOJoe]

JC Grab = Jump Cancelled grab

Against people with reasonable rolls, there's just too many things they could do to get out of it.

Also even if they roll in the direction you read, for some reason rolling out of d-throw makes them roll like twice as far and you can never catch them not shielding anyways, unless you go for another d-throw

Wow. I feel stupid asking, but what is a jump cancel grab? And you were right. I can d throw-shine with fox, but not with Falco. I'll have to try that d throw to d smash on platform you were talking about.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Wow. I feel stupid asking, but what is a jump cancel grab? And you were right. I can d throw-shine with fox, but not with Falco. I'll have to try that d throw to d smash on platform you were talking about.

If you press jump right before you do a running grab, you'll run and do a standing grab which is faster.

 

[MOJoe]

If you press jump right before you do a running grab, you'll run and do a standing grab which is faster.

Yeah. I found out like right after I posted that, but thanks. I'm getting much better.