My Day 1 Impression of Marth on Wii U

[kj22]

Today was my first experience using Marth in Smash 4. I went to a local tourney in San Antonio at Ultra Arcade, had good turnout, around 50 people or so. Being a marth main from Brawl marth was of course the first person i picked up.

Right off that bat I could feel that Marth was different: he actually felt slower in a game thats suppose to be "faster than brawl but slower than melee" than his brawl self. The tipper hitboxes and range all seemed the same, I didn't try out jab though, and I like the new shieldbreaker.

Aerials were...very underwhelming. Having to commit so early in a jump unless it was a full hope really stunk and made approaching a pain in the @$$. I felt like empty hopping is going to be MUCH more important in smash 4 due to their being little/no lag upon landing, allowing you to act out of it very quickly.

Maybe it was the tv I was using or maybe a new buffer window, but I definitely could not act/move as fast as I wanted too. I also struggled with basic inputs alot, causing me to miss many, many, punishes );. Many times I would have a pivot grab read and dash backwards and try to grab, but marth would dash and do a crappy dash skid, and something bs would come out instead. Or I would land and whiff a grab, and try to act out of it but things just wouldn't come out. The closest example to what I felt would be a brawl player playing pm for the first time and trying to move in general/buffer/dash dance pivot. It feels as if there is new timing for things I'll have to get used too.

I got 7th out of about 50 people at the tourney today, and I'm not upset about my performance. The two people I lost too, a falcon named Shade and Santi the TL main from brawl (who used diddy) both had been playing on the 3ds version since it came out, and I felt outteched and outknowledged rather than outread/outplayed. The only reasons both sets were close actually was because of my reads as marth otherwise I wouldve got destroyed.

Santi was the one who sent me into losers, and he used diddy both games. He used fairs to "anti-air" me and condition me to shielding so he could get grabs. I quickly caught on and used dtilt to poke him out, but he started doing dashing shield and I would try to pivot grab but that usually failed to come out/whiffed because nerfed grab range I believe(?). My main issues with this matchup was that Diddy really didn't take too much of a risk approaching/could approach freely because his fair seems to have gotten buffed (faster/more range/wayyyy less cooldown). He could literally short hop fair land short hop fair land as many times as he felt like, which he would do until he was in about midrange then either shield/tilt/roll. Rolling hurt alot me alot because many times i would try to ftilt/fair him before/after he faired, but he would land immediately and be able to act before my move's cooldown ended. ); I also felt like I had to make 10x as many reads as him because he had grab->up-air up-air up-air...and it also killed at high percent. He probably got 120% off of grab to upairs not including kills...Free damage vs damage I actually had to "earn". That mu was the only time I felt like I was actually playing a better character.

Shade, the falcon, I had very fun matches with. By this time I had realized that "rushdown Marth" doesnt really exist in this game, especially with how strong simply shielding is and buffered roll->roll and nerfed grab range and lag on aeriels and DB not connecting all the time and having to commit harder etc etc so I played more zoney/defensively...

First game he took pretty convincingly, I learned that his dtilt can screw you over big time if you jump at him offstage and his dash grab...is freaking AMAZING. I would be under the right side of bf, scared af to approach cuz Marth is bad at approaching now (imo) and he would dash grab me in air/as I was landing BEFORE MY FAIR CAME OUT down air to up air up air....

he'd also bait me to do stuff by full speed running/dashing at me (he runs so fast ;- then rolling backwards...repeatedly. In brawl i would just close the distance safely and box him in a corner but in this game it seems like I'll have to do that by walking...just his dash grab is so fast and covers soooo much area. It's really really good. Wish Marth had that ;<

2nd game I won mainly because he sd and I edge guarded the SHIZ outta him...3rd game he took me to delfino and guarded me to death because I wanted to force myself on stage and not be in the water...then took my second stock because I was in the water );

Looking back, I should've been more patient...and I need to learn what marth can do safely in the air. Also what viable tools he has in footsies...when i'm near the opponent in smash 4 its so bad...we usually whiff grabs/attacks just looks so nooby (ik first game people adjusting)

It's a bitter pill for me to swallow going from offensive marth in brawl (offensive=you control the pace of match, FORCE/SCARE you opponent into doing stupid/readable stuff/ then capitalizing big time) and if that didn't work back a little bit to throw them off. in this game...it doesnt' seem like you can do that. even if marth has the "perfect defensive/zoning" game, the opponent still gets to choose when to come in. and if they guess right...you're in for a world of hurt. the burdens on you to set up your wall perfectly. and in this game that's much, much harder and like I said you're not making the opponent play your game...they can easily sit back and wait for you to mess up, vs you being in their face making them mess up. Marth is definitely not the best character in this game, and I definitely believe he is worse (significantly or not I don't wanna say yet) then in brawl.

Nike, a brawl marth main, was also there with me and he watched me go marth vs people and I watched his marth vs people. He also played a diddy and...it was ugly. I think that newer marth mains will have less difficulty using him due to their mindset being "untainted" by melee/brawl, and they could bring fresh new ideas to marth.

Pivot ftilting is a nice new "addition" to his wall but again...nothing is helping marth actually get in and stay in. Invincibility on ledge options seems buffed (saw a luigi ledge jump and fair vs my fair as he was under bf's left platform and his fair hit me while mine went through him...) so edgeguarding definitely seems harder, as well as people being able to double jump and land 100 miles away from marth from the ledge.

I will still main Marth in this game, though will definitely have secondaries vs the "top tiers" (leaning towards shulk/sheik) as "pretty much every mu being even/close to even" definitely doesnt seem the case in this game anymore. He was to commit to so much more than many people (evident more vs "top tiers" and in high level play) and the risk/reward isn't nearly as great. His footsies game will have to be more ground based and guess what, a dashing shield will probably beat most of your options and once you catch onto that a dash to backwards roll will leave you whiffing and second guessing. It feels way to easy for opponents to get in on Marth, and it makes me wonder how Sakurai idealized Marth to play in this game. I'd love to ask him....


Thanks for reading, feel free to comment/critizise/add on!(:

 

[EternalFlame]

Definitely a story that reflects a lot of Marths transitioning to 4 (though I canno't share the sentiments since I didn't practice Marth seriously till now).

Though I can contend that a Marth can play agressively once you know where not to commit, how to protect yourself when commitment is there, and the combos and setups. Marth's fundamentals still inherently work, only that his air game needs adjustment from the previous iterations is all. Once you get use to it, you'll be able to do a good amount of what Marth was before (though slightly different to say the least.

And the community will be here to help you in your transition xD

 

[Emblem Lord]

You took 7th on day one of playing Marth out of 50.

Think about that.

No seriously. Just...think about it.

Marth can be aggressive though. You have to learn where and mostly with that moves though.

Also you have the same universal options. You don't HAVE to swing your sword. You can run up shield or run up grab as well. I played Brawl and hell I played Melee and I never had problems adapting. The key to understand and mentally accept that the character is different.

Stop trying to do what you once did. But again, everything you said does need to be taken with a grain of salt. As you said for you it's day one.

 

[kj22]

You took 7th on day one of playing Marth out of 50.

Think about that.

No seriously. Just...think about it.

Marth can be aggressive though. You have to learn where and mostly with that moves though.

Also you have the same universal options. You don't HAVE to swing your sword. You can run up shield or run up grab as well. I played Brawl and hell I played Melee and I never had problems adapting. The key to understand and mentally accept that the character is different.

Stop trying to do what you once did. But again, everything you said does need to be taken with a grain of salt. As you said for you it's day one.

I did, but I felt like I could've won it tbh. Lack of knowledge killed me.

I agree but it's definitely a different type of aggressive than brawl, and I will have to learn, in look forward to it!(:

I know I will have to adapt but my question is what was Samurai thinking.... What was the concept he was aiming for with Marth in this game? In brawl and melee I understand, but in this game I'm trying to figure it out.

If diddy would stop moving I would grab him, but every much every short hop had an lagless high priority aerial to go along with it. My problem was that diddy could be in the air throwing out whatever he wanted and landing fine while Marth has to dream of days he could do that and guess what the Diddys going to do. The problem with that is you're letting the opponent dictate the pace then, something Marty used to excel at. The ratio of commital with Marth vs Diddy is heavily on Marth side, and the reward is greatly on diddys. That hurts.

I know I have a lot to learn and adapt to, but I can see from day one what I'll going against. Once I figure out movement/safe aerials/what to use to punish I'll have a much easier time I know, but it won't change things like diddy being able to kill you from throws or using his fair liberally. Even if I could've magically played as brawl Marth vs Santi's diddy, diddy is still a great character in this game with solid options that's honestly only going to get better as the metagame continues.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Brawl marth would have annihilated diddy and the entire cast. Then sakurai would have atomic nerf nuked marth like he did to greninja.

He was probably thinking marths fair was too good a wall with too little commitment, which is not incorrect.

 

[kj22]

Brawl marth would have annihilated diddy and the entire cast. Then sakurai would have atomic nerf nuked marth like he did to greninja.

He was probably thinking marths fair was too good a wall with too little commitment, which is not incorrect.

Double fair was amazing, his bread and butter along with auto cancel aeriels since it flowed into the rest of his game so well. Smash 4 Marth doesn't seem to have the flow (yet).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Use more nair

 

[kj22]

I will.

Another thing that would help Marth is figuring out his ledgetrap options. That's was a big damage builder in brawl, hopefully he has similar tools in 4?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ledge traps are easy mode. Dont get greedy and you can keep someone on the ledge for an entire stock.

Also fthrow and bthrow are gold for this. The knockback is so high you can go instantly from defense to a trap situation.

Shield grab >bthrow. Congrats. Instant ledge trap scenario. Its actually pretty mindless.

 

[kj22]

Ledge traps are easy mode. Dont get greedy and you can keep someone on the ledge for an entire stock.

Also fthrow and bthrow are gold for this. The knockback is so high you can go instantly from defense to a trap situation.

Shield grab >bthrow. Congrats. Instant ledge trap scenario. Its actually pretty mindless.

Ledge hops seem much more difficult to deal with since increased air mobility and invincibility, meaning a guessing game instead of a react and punish vs ground based ledge options.

Ledge rolls actually go pretty far, what are you using to cover the attempted roll? Dash db?

What trajectory does bthrow send at? Didn't use when I played, but will incorporate onto my game if all of his throws have uses now.

Is it confirmed that there's more invincibility on ledge options across the board?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Stand outside of ledge attack range. Now you can react to everything. Bthrow sends almost straight back.

 

[kj22]

Even rolls? Seems like they can act too quickly to puish with anything besides a grab

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why is that an issue? Throw em right back on the ledge.

 

[EternalFlame]

Even rolls? Seems like they can act too quickly to puish with anything besides a grab

The opportunity to punish them after the roll is a very small set of frames, but it is quite possible. DB chases, Dtilt/Ftilt, grab, FAir/NAir can all equally be used to tech read like the previous games, but you need to throw the attack in anticipation of where they will stop (like halfway through their roll animation, or just run past and pivot tilt/grab). Reaction time for punishing rolls is stricter, but once you get them into the habit, throws, pivot tilts/grabs, and the options I mentioned above will become a nightmare for them.

 

[Bullys]

First off congrats on 7th, you sound disappointed, but honestly, to go into a new game mechanically and new meta (which you allude to the out tech'd etc.. rather than out played) is pretty darn impressive.

Secondly, great write up, I love reading tournament reports as much as watching them because you gain so much information, so thanks for sharing.

 

[kj22]

Why is that an issue? Throw em right back on the ledge.

The issue is that it feels like Marth cannot face forwards and react to what the oppenent does from the ledge AS WELL AS react to a ledge roll unless he's facing away from the ledge (or your amazing at turn around grab)

 

[Emblem Lord]

He can. You just gotta get faster. 1 frame pivot grab ya dig? Or just dash dancing blade.

 

[kj22]

The opportunity to punish them after the roll is a very small set of frames, but it is quite possible. DB chases, Dtilt/Ftilt, grab, FAir/NAir can all equally be used to tech read like the previous games, but you need to throw the attack in anticipation of where they will stop (like halfway through their roll animation, or just run past and pivot tilt/grab). Reaction time for punishing rolls is stricter, but once you get them into the habit, throws, pivot tilts/grabs, and the options I mentioned above will become a nightmare for them.

Thank you very much for this info. I tried to catch rolls while I was in the air with Nair like in brawl, but either the body hitbox has changed or I was timing the Nair wrong.

Reaction time for punishing rolls definitely seems stricter. I'm guessing they have less cool down?

Is anyone else having trouble connecting all the hits of db? I found more success rate by slowing it down.

 

[kj22]

First off congrats on 7th, you sound disappointed, but honestly, to go into a new game mechanically and new meta (which you allude to the out tech'd etc.. rather than out played) is pretty darn impressive.

Secondly, great write up, I love reading tournament reports as much as watching them because you gain so much information, so thanks for sharing.

Thank you for your feedback! I honestly wasn't sure what kind of reception I would get to posting a thread like this, but feedback like yours make me want to continue to do so on the future! (:

I will definitely continue repping Marth in smash 4 and taking him as far as he can go.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Slow it down and the up version is your friend.

Hitboxes have been toned down on EVERY character. So now instead of using one option to cover many situations, its now up to your knowledge and skill to choose yhe best option and react accordingly.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

I feel you man. We all just gotta adjust. New Marth in a new engine with its own physics. 7th is impressive tho bruh don't be so down