Murder: When can it be called "Good?"

[Crazy Cloud]

If your brain is conscious then you're going to feel pain. Unless there's some sort of numbing effect.

It didn't say little pain. It said "Guillotining was considered more humane because the blade was sharper and execution was more rapid than accomplished with an axe." Notice how it said "considered" and not is. Anyway, even if it were less pain, I seriously doubt cutting through those nerves, arteries, bone, and the brain stem would cause "little pain."

There isn't but it is agreed that beheading can cause excruciating pain. Therfore it isn't a "humane" form of capital punishment.

I always thought wikipedia isn't used as a credible source here........I remeber seeing a post of someone saying that.

Correct. I used their equation of "Executioner's skill equates to amount of pain". They're either creditable, or they aren't. Which is it?

Pain signals are delivered though special nerve fibers. The fibers are connected to the spinal cord and the brain stem [1]. If both of those have been cut off due to decapitation, where are the signals coming from, and who's delivering these signals to the brain? It's only a guess, but I think the body knows that it's in pain, due to the spasms.

Like, how you get your leg hit by the doctor, and the nerves react on their own, forcing your leg to kick up. Something to that extent.

You've gotta try harder than that .

Spoiler

You won't be able to find anything about the guillotine in relation to pain. You have to explore the anatomy of the human body. Start with Epinephrine, and the cerebral cortex

[1] - Pain and it's transformations P. 30 - 31 http://books.google.com/books?id=sQULdfIlBIYC&pg=PA31&dq=%22Recordings+from+individual+sensory%22&q=%22Recordings+from+individual+sensory%22&hl=en#v=snippet&q=%22Recordings%20from%20individual%20sensory%22&f=false

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Correct. I used their equation of "Executioner's skill equates to amount of pain". They're either creditable, or they aren't. Which is it?

Pain signals are delivered though special nerve fibers. The fibers are connected to the spinal cord and the brain stem [1]. If both of those have been cut off due to decapitation, where are the signals coming from, and who's delivering these signals to the brain? It's only a guess, but I think the body knows that it's in pain, due to the spasms.

Like, how you get your leg hit by the doctor, and the nerves react on their own, forcing your leg to kick up. Something to that extent.

You've gotta try harder than that .

Spoiler

You won't be able to find anything about the guillotine in relation to pain. You have to explore the anatomy of the human body. Start with Epinephrine, and the cerebral cortex

[1] - Pain and it's transformations P. 30 - 31 http://books.google.com/books?id=sQULdfIlBIYC&pg=PA31&dq=%22Recordings+from+individual+sensory%22&q=%22Recordings+from+individual+sensory%22&hl=en#v=snippet&q=%22Recordings%20from%20individual%20sensory%22&f=false

I'll research more information, however I've found some interesting information:


"Actually, death by guillotine is arguably the worst pain any animal can feel. It all has to do with nerve disruption. We lose nerve pathways all the time. Fibers die and the signal is either transferred to another path (gray fibers) or a new path is grown (white fibers). We feel this loss as a twinge or a pinpoint itch that has no apparent reason. Since it is only a fiber or two, we tend not to pay much attention.

Now consider the sensation of a limb that has "fallen asleep" and the massive, often painful, tingling you feel when it "wakes up". This is the sensation a person feels when the blade slices through the spinal cord and interrupts every nerve bundle, including the cranial nerves. Every nerve in your body seems to fire at the same time.

The pain is horrifyingly intense. Check the artwork from the guillotine era. Victims' faces are grotesquely malformed, the mouth is drawn open and the eyes are rolled back. What they don't show is that sometimes the contortions can be so severe that the eyes are actually ejected from their sockets by the very muscles that controlled them when the victim was alive. The jaw muscles are so powerful that they often break the jaw bone from the intense contractions.

All in all, burning to death may be a more horrible way to die because it takes much longer but death by beheading, especially by guillotine is by far the most painful way to go."

I'll get back to you with more research about the human body......

 

[Crazy Cloud]

Yes, I know of it. It's called Phantom Limb Pain [1]. Even though the limb is missing, the nerve endings where the limb was cut off still send signals. It's common in amputee patients. However in my previous post, I showed that pain signals in the human body travel through the spinal cord and/or the brain stem before going to the brain. Again, those are both severed in a decapitation.

Also, you left out your source in your post. http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/704361, I'm not sure if that's taken as credible or not, being from an answer site. It's not to me, however.

Here's why;

I would like to direct you at the person who originally typed the information that you used. http://www.answerbag.com/profile/1120347. They joined on the date they answered the question, October 28th, 2009, and never logged back in again. They were awarded no points for their response to the question. They never answered another question on the site. They're pretty much a nobody. Ask yourself, "Okay, but how is any of that important?". Well, it's somewhat relevant. It shows that they're not a very knowledgeable person. A one hit wonder, if you will, and sites are filled with them. However, that's not enough to discredit their response.

Take a look at the most important part. Their response has NO sources to back their statements up. He has no background information to make himself creditable (Being a Doctor would be acceptable). So how is someone supposed to take his information as valid? Sources are like evidence in a courtroom. In order to prove your case (argument), you need evidence (sources) to back everything up.

In the future, if you have to use yahoo-answers or answerbag as a source, make sure of a few things. Make sure the response to the question has sources to verify their claims. Also, if possible, use the sources they provided in their response, as your own. If they don't have sources, but you find that the information may have some validity/basis, google key terms that they used in their response. I google'd what should have been key terms in his response, specifically "Grey Fibers, White Fibers" stood out to me. I used advanced search to find exact wording or phrasing, and searched "Grey Fibers" "White Fibers" "Pain Grey Fibers" "Pain White Fibers". There wasn't anything out there about these white fibers or grey fibers, in relation to pain. So, either the guy made very vague generalizations, or he made it up.

I think you left the source out on purpose. If you're questioning your own sources, then it's obviously not worth using. Find sources that you trust . A good source can be verified by other sources.


[1] Phantom Limb Pain - http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/guide/phantom-limb-pain

EDIT:

I feel kinda bad. For one, this has gotten way off the original subject matter. Two, it seems like you're in a corner, after this last post. IE; Not providing your source, let alone the source being bogus. So I'll give you one last shot at derailing my argument. I'll reply back and I'll either challenge your response one last time, or I'll congratulate you. Cause I'm not sure if debating something that's gotten off-topic is going to help me in getting posting rights to the DH. I'm enjoying it, and hopefully you're learning something during this process. Whether it's debating experience, or even how pain and the nervous system work. However, I want to get in there, so I gotta draw the line . There's other threads, and I only like to focus on one at a time.

Good luck

P.S - I'm only giving you until Midnight PST lol. I got classes starting up, and I wanna join in another debate or two before before Monday.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Yes, I know of it. It's called Phantom Limb Pain [1]. Even though the limb is missing, the nerve endings where the limb was cut off still send signals. It's common in amputee patients. However in my previous post, I showed that pain signals in the human body travel through the spinal cord and/or the brain stem before going to the brain. Again, those are both severed in a decapitation.

Also, you left out your source in your post. http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/704361, I'm not sure if that's taken as credible or not, being from an answer site. It's not to me, however.

Here's why;

I would like to direct you at the person who originally typed the information that you used. http://www.answerbag.com/profile/1120347. They joined on the date they answered the question, October 28th, 2009, and never logged back in again. They were awarded no points for their response to the question. They never answered another question on the site. They're pretty much a nobody. Ask yourself, "Okay, but how is any of that important?". Well, it's somewhat relevant. It shows that they're not a very knowledgeable person. A one hit wonder, if you will, and sites are filled with them. However, that's not enough to discredit their response.

Take a look at the most important part. Their response has NO sources to back their statements up. He has no background information to make himself creditable (Being a Doctor would be acceptable). So how is someone supposed to take his information as valid? Sources are like evidence in a courtroom. In order to prove your case (argument), you need evidence (sources) to back everything up.

In the future, if you have to use yahoo-answers or answerbag as a source, make sure of a few things. Make sure the response to the question has sources to verify their claims. Also, if possible, use the sources they provided in their response, as your own. If they don't have sources, but you find that the information may have some validity/basis, google key terms that they used in their response. I google'd what should have been key terms in his response, specifically "Grey Fibers, White Fibers" stood out to me. I used advanced search to find exact wording or phrasing, and searched "Grey Fibers" "White Fibers" "Pain Grey Fibers" "Pain White Fibers". There wasn't anything out there about these white fibers or grey fibers, in relation to pain. So, either the guy made very vague generalizations, or he made it up.

I think you left the source out on purpose. If you're questioning your own sources, then it's obviously not worth using. Find sources that you trust . A good source can be verified by other sources.


[1] Phantom Limb Pain - http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/guide/phantom-limb-pain

EDIT:

I feel kinda bad. For one, this has gotten way off the original subject matter. Two, it seems like you're in a corner, after this last post. IE; Not providing your source, let alone the source being bogus. So I'll give you one last shot at derailing my argument. I'll reply back and I'll either challenge your response one last time, or I'll congratulate you. Cause I'm not sure if debating something that's gotten off-topic is going to help me in getting posting rights to the DH. I'm enjoying it, and hopefully you're learning something during this process. Whether it's debating experience, or even how pain and the nervous system work. However, I want to get in there, so I gotta draw the line . There's other threads, and I only like to focus on one at a time.

Good luck

P.S - I'm only giving you until Midnight PST lol. I got classes starting up, and I wanna join in another debate or two before before Monday.

I only put that information up to give you something to work with until I find some better information.

I've seen that same response at wiki answers and answer bag. So I didn't know which is the original post. It could of been that the poster(s) copied and pasted the info from somewhere else, some place I haven't found.

You seemed to put in a lot of effort into debunking a rather "waste you're energy on this until I give you a real arguement," post. lol

Now for my real arguement:

It seems the blinking and jaw movements are just muscle spasms and not conscious movements.

After the brain is removed from the heart it's oxygen is cut off, so the brain immediately goes into a coma and begins to die.

Consciousness is lost in 2-3 seconds due to a rapid fall of intracranial perfusion of blood.

Death occurs due to separation of the brain and spinal cord, after transection of the surrounding tissues. This must cause acute and possibly severe pain. This one of the reasons guillotine isn't used as a method of execution in most capital punishment countries.

So why would Anne continue praying if guillotine was so painful, she wasn't conscious, it was all due to muscle spasms. She lost consciousness quickly.

Therfore the victim experiences pain but only for a very short period of time.

Source: http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/systems/nervous-system/10-brain-myths6.htm

Most of the info I posted was quoted by Dr Harold Hillman.


This arguement was supposed to be about capital punishment. A topic I felt confident debating against. This however, was more difficult because I didn't know much information until further research.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

This arguement was supposed to be about capital punishment. A topic I felt confident debating against. This however, was more difficult because I didn't know much information until further research.

*facepalms so hard* This thread was about murder in general.

 

[Crazy Cloud]

I only put that information up to give you something to work with until I find some better information.

I've seen that same response at wiki answers and answer bag. So I didn't know which is the original post. It could of been that the poster(s) copied and pasted the info from somewhere else, some place I haven't found.

You seemed to put in a lot of effort into debunking a rather "waste you're energy on this until I give you a real arguement," post. lol

Now for my real arguement:

It seems the blinking and jaw movements are just muscle spasms and not conscious movements.

After the brain is removed from the heart it's oxygen is cut off, so the brain immediately goes into a coma and begins to die.

Consciousness is lost in 2-3 seconds due to a rapid fall of intracranial perfusion of blood.

Death occurs due to separation of the brain and spinal cord, after transection of the surrounding tissues. This must cause acute and possibly severe pain. This one of the reasons guillotine isn't used as a method of execution in most capital punishment countries.

So why would Anne continue praying if guillotine was so painful, she wasn't conscious, it was all due to muscle spasms. She lost consciousness quickly.

Therfore the victim experiences pain but only for a very short period of time.

Source: http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/systems/nervous-system/10-brain-myths6.htm

Most of the info I posted was quoted by Dr Harold Hillman.


This arguement was supposed to be about capital punishment. A topic I felt confident debating against. This however, was more difficult because I didn't know much information until further research.

Well, I didn't really "waste" effort. I was merely pointing out that it was hardly a credible source. And I wanted you to know so that in the future, you wouldn't use something like that in a debate, because it won't get you anywhere. I appreciate the food for thought, but the fact remains that it's a bunch of words that have no source to support them.

I think you'd have come around in the next couple of posts. You just need to realize what was important. If there were nerve endings connected to the brain (Yes, the central nervous system), and if the brain is the organ that receives and assesses pain signals (Yes: the Limbic System and the Thalamus).

One of my traps was the spinal cord and brain stem. What I said was true, but it was completely irrelevant. See if you can figure out what I mean by that, and what I did. Also, with what you said about a numbing effect a few posts ago. Adrenaline is stored right near the gut in the body. It wouldn't help the head at all. I knew that, but it wasn't in my favor to point that out .

I'll expose one of my tricks. Anne Boleyn was executed... by a sword :D. It related to beheading, but not the guillotine. I had a counter-argument if you tried to question it's relevancy, since it wasn't the guillotine, but you never questioned it. You could have even just clicked the source I provided and found that out .

All in all, be more perceptive. Don't get trapped in words, and question sources. And it's possible to have a good debate, even when you aware you're on the wrong side like I was ;D. And one last time, I'll challenge your points. I'm not going to bother with sources, just knowledge I have. You're free to research.

- The Brain doesn't go in to a coma. It goes into hypoperfusion (shock). Shock is what happens before almost every death. Shock is what kills a person. If you could prevent shock (which is impossible

- Acute, in it's medical definition, means "A short course". So acute pain could be interpreted in a few different ways in the case of decapitation. It could mean there's pain until the point of complete severance. Or it could mean that the pain would be short, but so is the person's remaining time alive, so the pain stays the whole course. It's too broad of a word to be conclusive.

- I guess the time is debatable for a "living head". I've seen sources all say differing times. 1 - 3 seconds, 10 - 15 seconds, 15 - 30 seconds, up to two minutes. I'd personally go with the median, and assume up to 15 seconds.

@Dark Horse

Hehehe. I'll make sure I'm on topic next time .

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Well, I didn't really "waste" effort. I was merely pointing out that it was hardly a credible source. And I wanted you to know so that in the future, you wouldn't use something like that in a debate, because it won't get you anywhere. I appreciate the food for thought, but the fact remains that it's a bunch of words that have no source to support them.

I think you'd have come around in the next couple of posts. You just need to realize what was important. If there were nerve endings connected to the brain (Yes, the central nervous system), and if the brain is the organ that receives and assesses pain signals (Yes: the Limbic System and the Thalamus).

One of my traps was the spinal cord and brain stem. What I said was true, but it was completely irrelevant. See if you can figure out what I mean by that, and what I did. Also, with what you said about a numbing effect a few posts ago. Adrenaline is stored right near the gut in the body. It wouldn't help the head at all. I knew that, but it wasn't in my favor to point that out .

I'll expose one of my tricks. Anne Boleyn was executed... by a sword :D. It related to beheading, but not the guillotine. I had a counter-argument if you tried to question it's relevancy, since it wasn't the guillotine, but you never questioned it. You could have even just clicked the source I provided and found that out .

All in all, be more perceptive. Don't get trapped in words, and question sources. And it's possible to have a good debate, even when you aware you're on the wrong side like I was ;D. And one last time, I'll challenge your points. I'm not going to bother with sources, just knowledge I have. You're free to research.

- The Brain doesn't go in to a coma. It goes into hypoperfusion (shock). Shock is what happens before almost every death. Shock is what kills a person. If you could prevent shock (which is impossible

- Acute, in it's medical definition, means "A short course". So acute pain could be interpreted in a few different ways in the case of decapitation. It could mean there's pain until the point of complete severance. Or it could mean that the pain would be short, but so is the person's remaining time alive, so the pain stays the whole course. It's too broad of a word to be conclusive.

- I guess the time is debatable for a "living head". I've seen sources all say differing times. 1 - 3 seconds, 10 - 15 seconds, 15 - 30 seconds, up to two minutes. I'd personally go with the median, and assume up to 15 seconds.

@Dark Horse

Hehehe. I'll make sure I'm on topic next time .

I appreciate you trying to help me, especially with a topic I know little about. I don't know much about the human body. Not nearly as much as you do that's for sure. However I would take you more seriously if you were an actual debater, so I'll only take some of your "advice" to heart.

Now about Anne Boleyn, the only reason you brought her up was to show why she would continue moving her mouth if she was in so much pain. Whether it was a sword or not has nothing to do with it. Her head was chopped off correct? I also already pointed afterwards that the movements were due to muscle spasms.

Hypoperfusion is "decreased blood flood through an organ, as in circulatory shock; if prolonged, it may result in permanent cellular dysfunction and death." You're right this does happen to the brain.

Source:
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/hypoperfusion

A coma can be caused by damage to the rhombencephalon (hindbrain.) This part of the body is being cut off when you're dying via guillotine. So the victim will be put in a coma.

It doesn't matter what exactly "acute pain" means. As long as there's pain involved I win the debate. That's the whole point of our debate.

15 seconds, ok.