[MU] Kirby

Siledh

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#1
Came across a very spam worthy Kirby tonight who loved hanging on the ledge and then using Up B any time I approached. Once caught by it, I was pretty stumped. Now, I pretty much kicked his ass in general, but I was wondering what general strategies there were to take on Kirby as Link and does anyone have any specific pointers about that Up B and how to respond to it?

ETA: I did have a look in the strategies thread and stuff and searched for Kirby threads in here, but couldn't find any. I apologise if this has been done already.
 
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SafCar

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#2
Came across a very spam worthy Kirby tonight who loved hanging on the ledge and then using Up B any time I approached. Once caught by it, I was pretty stumped. Now, I pretty much kicked his *** in general, but I was wondering what general strategies there were to take on Kirby as Link and does anyone have any specific pointers about that Up B and how to respond to it?

ETA: I did have a look in the strategies thread and stuff and searched for Kirby threads in here, but couldn't find any. I apologise if this has been done already.
Mmhmm, sure you did lol

In any case, Bombs help space him away, especially since he can't swallow them safely. Try crouching to deal with his Final Cutter's shockwave, as the Hylian Shield blocks it, but Perfect Shielding can stop the attack and leave him open for a Jab/Dtilt. In the event you get hit, try a FF Nair or Bombs to push him away.
 

8MAN

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#3
Kirby has a good air game as well as a good combo game. However, his only projectile is the shockwave from his Final Cutter, which is super telegraphed, and can be blocked by just crouching with the Hylian Shield.
However a good Kirby will give Link trouble, seeing how Link's weight and fall speed allow Kirby to combo fairly easily.
Kirby's Assets:
>D-tilt trips
>U-tilt can juggle into itself at low percents and set up for aerial strings
>F-tilt comes fairly quickly
>All smash attacks deal decent knockback and f-smash has decent range
>Kirby's low crouch can avoid Link's U-tilt, bair, zair, and possibly grab & nair (needs testing)
>His small size makes it difficult for Link to Zair effectively or hit bombs at close range (like point blank)
>Grabs deal good damage, pummel is also fairly quick and does decent damage
>Uair is a good juggle tool
>Bair can kill as well as finish an aerial string
>Nair is a good OoS option
>Dair can start ground combos, as well as meteor (though it isn't very strong)
>Kirby has multiple jumps as well, meaning he can avoid spam by going to Link's "Projectile Blind Spot"
>Aerial Down B is a potent shield breaker, that only requires a slightly weakened shield
>Side B is essentially a smash attack that he can hold indefinitely, and has 2 hits when used in the air
>Swallow at high percents can lead to a Kirbycide, which is very possible seeing as Link's recovery isn't the best.
-------------------------------------
Link's Assets:
>Projectile pressure can force Kirby into the air
>Bow, Boomerang, and Bombs all have more range than Final Cutter's shockwave
>Smash Attacks will all kill Kirby at around 110%
>F-tilt, Dash Attack, Dair, Second Hit Fair, Uair and U-tilt can kill Kirby at around 120-140ish percent
>Uair and Dair will usually beat or trade with Kirby's aerials
>Usmash and U-tilt can stop Kirby approaching from above Link
>Zair can be used to stop SH and horizontal aerial approaches
>If Kirby inhales a bomb, free punish
>U-throw can kill at about 140-160%
 
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Siledh

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#4
Kirby has a good air game as well as a good combo game. However, his only projectile is the shockwave from his Final Cutter, which is super telegraphed, and can be blocked by just crouching with the Hylian Shield.
However a good Kirby will give Link trouble, seeing how Link's weight and fall speed allow Kirby to combo fairly easily.
Kirby's Assets:
>D-tilt trips
>U-tilt can juggle into itself at low percents and set up for aerial strings
>F-tilt comes fairly quickly
>All smash attacks deal decent knockback and f-smash has decent range
>Kirby's low crouch can avoid Link's U-tilt, bair, zair, and possibly grab & nair (needs testing)
>His small size makes it difficult for Link to Zair effectively or hit bombs at close range (like point blank)
>Grabs deal good damage, pummel is also fairly quick and does decent damage
>Uair is a good juggle tool
>Bair can kill as well as finish an aerial string
>Nair is a good OoS option
>Dair can start ground combos, as well as meteor (though it isn't very strong)
>Kirby has multiple jumps as well, meaning he can avoid spam by going to Link's "Projectile Blind Spot"
>Aerial Down B is a potent shield breaker, that only requires a slightly weakened shield
>Side B is essentially a smash attack that he can hold indefinitely, and has 2 hits when used in the air
>Swallow at high percents can lead to a Kirbycide, which is very possible seeing as Link's recovery isn't the best.
-------------------------------------
Link's Assets:
>Projectile pressure can force Kirby into the air
>Bow, Boomerang, and Bombs all have more range than Final Cutter's shockwave
>Smash Attacks will all kill Kirby at around 110%
>F-tilt, Dash Attack, Dair, Second Hit Fair, Uair and U-tilt can kill Kirby at around 120-140ish percent
>Uair and Dair will usually beat or trade with Kirby's aerials
>Usmash and U-tilt can stop Kirby approaching from above Link
>Zair can be used to stop SH and horizontal aerial approaches
>If Kirby inhales a bomb, free punish
>U-throw can kill at about 140-160%
I was pretty much using projectiles and bombing over the shockwave of Final Cutter to force something different, then I'd soft throw onto the edge when he would just hang there. It was mostly once he caught me in Final Cutter that it'd be problematic, because there were times when he'd just spam that one move and lock me into successive waves of it. I was also having difficulty hitting with Bair and Fair because I'd time it too early and miss due to his size.

Thanks, though. I'll work on this later.
 

8MAN

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#5
I was pretty much using projectiles and bombing over the shockwave of Final Cutter to force something different, then I'd soft throw onto the edge when he would just hang there. It was mostly once he caught me in Final Cutter that it'd be problematic, because there were times when he'd just spam that one move and lock me into successive waves of it. I was also having difficulty hitting with Bair and Fair because I'd time it too early and miss due to his size.

Thanks, though. I'll work on this later.
Friendly reminder though: F-tilt and Dash Attack hit under the ledge, which both happen to kill Kirby at relatively early percents.
 

Siledh

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#6
Friendly reminder though: F-tilt and Dash Attack hit under the ledge, which both happen to kill Kirby at relatively early percents.
I know, but it would be hard to actually get there, for me at least, because they would hang off the ledge until I approached and then use Final Cutter to pop up from underneath and defend his approach. If I shielded, they would just keep spamming the move until I backed off or they locked me into it for a few times and then I'd spam projectiles to zone and they would just run away to the far ledge to wait for my approach again. And of course, Kirby's jump allows for such a good recovery that if I were anywhere near the ledge, they would just float over me unless it was at high percentages.

Definitely going to try this on people though.
 

MintyGuy700

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#7
Link can completely abuse Kirby's recovery, if you throw a boomerang or shoot an arrow and have a bomb on deck, it should be relatively easy to hit him while he recovers. Also, should he be forced to recover with Final Cutter, it's super easy to spike him with D-Air.
 
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smokebomb12

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#8
Remember that kirby has some very tricky follow ups and pretty strong attacks with a good recovery. But kirby is the second lightest character ( i think) and can be killed with a up grab at 160 percent and is not much of a projectile fan. You have to be what people who hate and do not know link say. "Camp and then spam smash attacks thats how you need to deal with kirbys. Boomerangs and bombs are your best friend against kirby. If your off the stage pull out a bomb and dodge accordingly. Do not try to spike kirby. He has 4 jumps and can air dodge and then spike or jump on you once helpless. Remeber link is strong and kirby is light
 
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#9
Every decent Kirby I ever fought basically starts all their big combos with dair. No one is safe floating above Link so I've never had an issue with the Kirby match up. Make sure you're consistently raining bombs on top of yourself and use uair and utilt intelligently and you'll be okay. Always bait out the turning into a rock move and don't commit to chasing from beneath Kirbs.
 
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#10
Kirby's dair:
If we shield it, it is -10 on shield. Jump-canceled UpB OOS is optimal but if you don't trust yourself, keep shielding or roll depending on where Kirby is facing. Here's Stryker's input: "Because of the landing hitbox, it will be -10 OOS. That means (in theory) Up-B, bomb (Kirby though, so bomb may go over or through him if he is pushing in), grab (unless they space it on the edge of our shield) and USmash OOS can punish. USmash and grab need to be frame perfect (or buffered), the other have 2 frames of leniency. Up-B can always punish, but you need to be quick. I don't know how realistic it is. Nimious says to add two frames when looking at OOS punishes, so Up-B may work."

Avoiding it in the first place: Don't throw out random moves. Kirby can and will bait you to commit by floating above you and airdodging. If he's high enough you can try an upair (it lasts through the airdodge) but if he's low, you can try a risky uptilt. Personally I don't like being directly under Kirby, and rolling away is an option. So is dash back pivot ftilt, but they might catch you dashing if they go for the dair. Really, we should just try to reset neutral so Kirby has to approach again in the first place; we can impede Kirby with bombs, rangs, fairs, and zairs (retreating fairs and nairs are often good).

Thanks to Stryker, we have some data on Kirby's DAir and how to avoid the setup into Dsmash. Some of this data wasn't on Kurogane Hammer for some reason.
"Upon landing there is a landing hit box that doesn't care if the first 2-6 hitboxes connect, it will always come out and has a set kb and has 13-14 frames of landing lag (kurogane doesn't have that for some reason).
1. If they press into you, you can sdi (or even just di) into them and you can come out the other side and completely avoid the landing hitbox, giving you time to do whatever. (The following is that they don't push to hard into you.)

2. SDI away if they are getting most/all hits of DAir. There are times (depending on how far deep they get into you) you can pop out (especially at high %s) and the landing hit will miss and so will DSmash.

3. If only the first hit of DAir connects, the angle is too high and the landing hit may not connect. Not something to look for, just means you get even more time to avoid.

4.If the landing hit does connect, it has set kb so your % doesn't matter. Without rage on Kirby you can DI down and shield. With rage shield does not always work but usually does (depends on where vertically the landing hitbox connects). Without rage you can sometimes DI up and jump (depends on where vertically the landing hitbox connects). With rage you can DI up and jump. So take your pick, both can work at all %s of both characters with and without rage, but down and shield seems to work best without rage and up with jump at high. Don't bother with airdodge, it's more risky to try to get the airdodge to line up with the DSmash and not get stuck in airdodge landing lag.

5. Although the percents of Link don't matter for the landing hit, they do matter for the previous ones as they can change his vertical position. I highly suggest DI/SDI up and away at Link's higher %s if you are getting hit by multiple hits of DAir as it can lead to you being higher vertically for the landing hit and then being able to DI up still and jump to avoid the DSmash or dash grab."

So it looks like you want to SDI up and away if we're at kill %, and jump away. If they're pressing into us, (S)DI in and you should pop out the other side. One more thing from Stryker:

"If you want you can always buffer the jump and then hold shield after the landing hitbox. If buffered right, you will jump and then airdodge if able. If you can't jump and land instead, then you will shield and avoid a DSmash. But I don't know how well people can buffer."
 
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#11
I'd say Link wins the MU slightly. I don't imagine it's fun at all, but you mostly want to condition him to stay grounded with projectiles, read his limited defense options from there (because of his bad dash-shield most will either mix up movement with empty hops or walk and shield) and keep yourself distanced with pivot ftilts, as Kirby really can't punish those, as long as you're not sacrificing too much stage control by forcing yourself by the ledge. Any Kirby who comes at you from the air SHOULD BE REACTIVELY ANTI-AIRED, his air mobility is horrible and I can't stress that enough. Just snap him out of the air with up tilts or bair on reaction. Dthrow>uair also kills around 80 to my knowledge, just play it safe, don't get cornered and Link should be able to edge it out in his favor.
 
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