[MU] King Dedede

skydogc

Smash Ace
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Dec 30, 2013
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Skydog
For those who don't get it

So I figured for the sake of having it on our boards (after searching and seeing nothing in our own records about it), we should discuss The Penguin.

Dedede to me has an oddly timed moveset - some seem quick, some seem horrendously slow and projected.

I'm more asking because I don't have much experience against Dedede really until I ran across a few the last day or two. I definitely picked up that our projectile game is far more versatile and punishing, and throwing in our zair seems to be very effective for the size of 3De.
 

emefcue

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
43
There are a few things I find helpful against a Dedede.

Keep a nice distance from him and wait for the opportune moment to strike. This distance can be kept using his boomerang to reflect back his gordo and well timed Z airs in combination with bombs. There are some delays on Dededes moves, most notably his forward smash. Do not attempt to spot dodge these because of the prolonged hitbox.

When you can get close to Dedede, grabbing him in combination with a downthrow to get him in the air is a good option. You can get up tilts or up smashes in pretty consistently due to him being a heavyweight fighter. At higher percents it becomes rather easy to juggle a Dedede.

Good use of boomerang, patience with shielding, spacing with Z airs, and juggling for kills should bode well against Dedede players.
 

SuqAta8

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Sep 9, 2015
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dedede seems to be one of my toughest matchups for some reason

even against rather incompetent players my win rate is fairly low
 

GerMoj

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I've found a lot of DDD lately, so now I've got a little more experience for the MU. First of all, DDD es still slower than us on most of it's attacks, so we are kinda safe most of the time, the con is that DDD outranges us in CQC and has some faster options on his weaker moves like Jab and D-tilt. He is also heavier, so he is actually killing us earlier in CQC

Most of their aproaches seem to be FF N-air while mixing it up with multiple jumps, so having a bomb in hand and boomerang angled up can zone DDD better. We can cover the Gordos in reaction so the are not a big trouble as we can win easily a spam war, which is possibly the best way to fight DDD as we can rack up damage fairly easily without compromising too much.

You can also aproach, but I've seen a little more useful F-air instead of N-air in this MU as we don't want to trade with this guy. Also I think it's better to keep the battle on the ground where DDD has less mobility.

Stage control is really important as DDD can easily take our stock if we are launched of stage with a gimp or with the Gordo-Smash Ledge setup.

For the kill, I've found that the most reliable ways are the following:

-Bomb-Up -> B (Look the Link's meta thread for the %)
-D-throw -> U-air / Up B
-Jab1 ->Jab2 -> D-Smash

The second option is really good as even when DDD has many jumps, it actually doesn't get's to far with 1.

In resume: Keep out of his range, mantain stage control, don't trade.
 

LakerLink

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Feb 7, 2016
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King Ddd he can kill really early becuase of rage

My training partner is a King ddd so I found out that down Air will hit every time King ddd does his up B. So when he has to use his up B he is free for damage.
 
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LordXav1er

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Be very careful and weary of Gordo traps when facing a DDD they can trip you up if not careful even use it to catch the two frame on ledges.

Other than that just patiently wear the big guy down with projectiles till they get antsy enough to go for something where you can confirm a kill.
 
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LakerLink

Smash Cadet
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Feb 7, 2016
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Pasco Wa
my bad I meant to say dair. When Ddd is underneath the edge and needs to recover dair him becuase he is open for a hit, of course his armor lock will kick in and he will still keep momentum.
 

Catana

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Nov 6, 2014
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they get antsy enough to go for something where you can confirm a kill.
this is a player dependent situation, has nothing to do with the actual character MU, so please refrain from making that sort of arguments
 

LordXav1er

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my bad I meant to say dair. When Ddd is underneath the edge and needs to recover dair him becuase he is open for a hit, of course his armor lock will kick in and he will still keep momentum.

Read it as you saying dair either way.

I was thinking really good tools to shut D3 down off and on stage would be fairs and zair he doesn't have much to deal with either if you keep spacing.
 
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LouLouXz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 14, 2016
Messages
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Hey Guys,
LoulouXz here. Link main, secondary ZSS for rough matchups.
Lately, after getting badly bodied by a very good Dedede player on a consistent basis at local tournaments, i decided to study the Matchup thoroughly to hopefully have an edge on the penguin once and for all.
I would love to hear advice from both experienced DDD and Link players on this thread.
Here are my observations after many matches. I will splint the info into DO's and DONT's. hopefully some of you will find some of the info helpful/interesting:)
Also feel free to go to my youtube Channel to check out some more Link stuff, and feel free to contact me there if you want to play some games, or anything really:)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJtes-FG17CXNUgSWO0zFZg

----------------DO NOT-----------------------
* Approach. Dedede will dominate you in Close quarter combat (QCQ) due to his good grab, and good-range long lasting hit boxes such as f-tilt that out space you and eat your spot dodges
* Give up stage control: if you manage to knock him off stage, DDD has many jumps, super armor on his up-B, an up-air that will hit you from far below the stage, and many more features that will ALWAYS give DDD an edge versus Link in the air, and particularly offstage. Stick with Z-dropped bombs if he's below, or arrow/boomerangs/zairs if he's away horizontally.
* Challenge his Recovery: as said above, do not try to stage spike or even D-air his recovery. As said earlier, his up-B and up-air are extremely hard to punish when recovering low. Even punishing a regrab is risky, as he might just drop again and up-air you.
* Challenge his aerial landings: Dedede will often, in neutral, stall in the air with many jumps to find an opening to land a FF B-air of FF N-air. Both are fast options with almost unpunishable endlag on reaction. Stay away until he lands and throw boomerangs diagonally upwards as well as empty SH fairs/nairs/zairs to prevent him from approaching from the air. If he lands an aerial on you as you're facing away from him, you simply won't be able to punish him. So roll away, or opt for another option if he expects the roll.
*Shield too much: Dedede excels at breaking shields. A gordo and a dash attack or a smash attack and you're history. the last thing you want to do is give away a free stock at 40% because your shield broke. Shield should be an emergency measure, and perfect shielding is CRUCIAL in this matchup. Note that Gordos should never be shielded, ideally, but reflected instead. Some bouncing trajectories are also considerably difficult to perfect shield. Dedede tends to become overwhelmingly aggressive- and dangerous - when your shield is low. Space yourself and make sure your shield is full before even considering entering his melee range.
*Shield the Gordos: pretty self explanatory after what's stated above, but I can't stress that enough. They're hard to perfect shield, they shield poke, and if they do hit your shield, you're in some serious danger.
*Hold bombs all the time: Somehow, a bomb toss doesn't always catch an incoming gordo. you must be ready to N-air, Z-air or jab at all times to reflect a possible gordo. Instead, Bombs should be Z-dropped in front of you, on the ground, or soft thrown (they land on the ground without exploding). If a gordo bounces on it, it will be reflected back, which is a nice little shield to use while casting an arrow or throwing a boomerang.

----------DO-------------
*Create a wall of projectiles: Even the best Dedede will spam Gordos if you let him. Thankfully, Link is equipped with plenty of moves to reflect them. Any damage that deals 2% or more will reflect them. so Basically any attack by Link. The fastest and thus most useful ones are Z-air, N-air, and Jab. B-air as an emergency option in case you're running away from DDD and your shield is low. Note that DDD is often ready to reflect the gordo back a second time. So be ready for that and keep jabbing if he has a tendency to do so. i recommend sticking to Jab1-Jab2, as jab3 has a little more endlag.
*Reflect/Avoid the gordos at all costs: regardless of what your positioning is (at the ledge, in the air, on stage) there is always a good way to stay away from them. You can also always Shorthop Airdodge them if the situation calls for it. Ideally, You should NEVER get hit by a gordo in Neutral.
*Take your time at the ledge: Dedede will set up a lot of traps at the ledge. The worst thing to do is to panic. Often, he will position himself at your roll getup distance, throw a gordo, and charge a smash attack. Regular getup+shield might result in a shield break. Roll will get demolished by the charged smash. Jump will get hit by the gordo. So you can either perform a risky getup attack, drop down DJ N-air that will reflect the gordo back on his face, or simply wait, if you can recognize that the gordo will disappear before it hits you. If you Z-air back onto the ledge, it's a good idea to wait before snapping the ledge and hang instead, to observe what DDD is going to go for. Make sure that you instantly snap the ledge if DDD tries to catch your hanging with a gordo, though.
Note that DDD's dash attack not only hits like a TRUCK but will hit you if you stay too long at the ledge. It is however fairly slow and should be easily avoided by simply rolling on the stage, or even drop-DJ-AD-UpB for a quick punish. Risky but may be worth it as it may kill early.
*Use Grab to you advantage. Link's grab might be slow, but so is Dedede. If your shield is high enough and you can withstand one hit (or ideally, perfect shield it), you might have enough time to shield grab Dedede. I recommend dthrow unless Dedede is around 180% where upthrow will finally kill (rage dependent). Follow up Down throw by up tilt, up smash, N-air, and Up-air depending on percent. A good dedede will never airdodge out of utilt or Dthrow due to his many jumps, unless he's at upthrow-up-air kill percentage.
*Read his jumping habits: observe closely what DDD does out of your downthrow, your jab 1 2, and your uptilts. If you notice he jumps away, which he most likely will, you might want to attempt a read and chase with a F-air or an U-air if he remains above you. Not too risky of an option, as it covers the eventual gordo throw and the disjoint hitbox will beat his nair. If you catch DDD a few times by chasing his jump, he might attack directly after a downthrow, which you can shield, grab, and repeat. Remember, if he lands behind you, don't challenge it and get back to safety by recreating space.
*Zone, Zone, Zone: Jab 123 might just be one of your best friends. Anything that wil keep him away is a good tool. Be careful when at mid rage, as arrow, bomb and boomerang's startup lag might be too slow to catch an incoming gordo. The furthest you are from Dedede, the more advantage you have. It's sad to say, but this is a match-up where you'll have to run and consitently look for space. After all, if he's gonna spam gordos, you might as well spam your own stuff.
*Kill Horizontally rather than vertically: Dedede is one big, fat, penguin. Killing him off the top is quite a bit of work. If you can manage to punish a really slow move, always opt for Ftilt, Fsmash, Up-B, or bomb to Fair. Obviously, you should always go for the kill that is available, and more often than not that'll be a Dthrow to U-air. But Killing off the top requires Dedede to be at fairly high percent. The match up is already hard enough, but it gets even harder if you give him rage that'll make his smashes kill at 50%.
IMPORTANT: This might be your best chance to kill Dedede: A sour spot N-air to (Tipper?!) Dash attack can be very difficult for Dedede to avoid if he gets caught in in at the right percent. Too high of a percent and he'll be in a tech-chase situation. Too low and he'll just jump away. Definitely a great combo against floaty characters.


This is all I gathered so far as information to beat the King Dedede. I truly hope you will find this information useful and contribute to the thread as I still badly struggle in this matchup. Also, if you feel like learning some Link stuff, take a look at my Youtube channel! :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJtes-FG17CXNUgSWO0zFZg

LouLouXz, Forever a Link Main
 
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