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Thanks for the tips, it is hard to react like you said, but i didnt consider using egg roll, also i should practice my SH nair so i do it more, hope you can get that match recorded so i can get an idea.We have a good MK player I fight regularly in my scene, so I'd be more than happy to help. I haven't got a full grasp of the MU yet so a lot of this will just be theory but I'll test and see if these work in action tomorrow.
Things to look out for are his dash attack into upB and his dash attack in general, his rolls, and dash grabs. He is very hard to punish since his smashes have practically no lag so he can just shield or roll away instantly, so your only real option is getting very good at reading and anticipating those rolls ahead of time...though he can sort of spam them back and forth and mix it up with how fast it is so getting the read is way easier said than done. >_> Idk if it's reliable or not but I actually really like egg roll in this MU since it's quick enough to punish rolls and jumping to the ledge with it and breaking out lets you get back to safety. I also find mixing up my movement and dashing back and forth around the place and in-place forces them to second guess themselves, hard to explain exactly what I mean so I'll see if I can show you what I'm talking about if I can record a match with him tomorrow. Bear in mind if you're not careful you'll get Dsmashed or grabbed or even dash attacked when doing this if it's not purposeful. Going for dash grabs from any distance is a very bad idea in general (but not always) because of the end lag on it, he'll just roll then run up and Fthrow to upB you. If he's running at you, you actually have a few good options;
Jab: If timed right it should beat his dash attack or dash grab, and if he rolls you can still always act on that and punish. Reversed downB is good if he rolls behind you (but beware if they shield the 1st hit they can roll away before the 2nd hit), and dash grab or dash attack will catch them for sure if they opt to roll back.
SH Nair: This move is amazing since you can retreat or advance so far with it and keeps it up, so if they're spamming rolls you can catch them with this. It's a good idea to mix it up with some ground options though since you might get Usmashed if you just keep doing it over and over.
Dash dancing: Good mindgame that can throw them out, only do it for like half a second or so before acting though.
Dashing away then back with dash attack or dash grab is really good too.
Wall of text, I'm not very good at condensing text just yet. =_=;
That's a bad idea since Drill Rush beats all of Yoshi's aerials and can stage spike. MKs Bair comes out faster than Yoshi''s Fair so MK can effectively edgeguard Yoshi while Yoshi has to constantly gamble when he decides to go off stage since that can end his stock.Just remember though if you find a meta knight starting to edge guard you or your edge guarding a MK you can use fair as much as you want. None of his aerials can get through the hitbox.
Im talking about when your at the right spacing. Its easy to react to meta knights drill and yoshis moves can go through it anyways. I did forget to mention not to attack him if your 2nd jump is gone. But yoshis fair you dont just throw out without spacing. Metaknight just cant get through the hitbox fast enough. Approaching him to edgeguard while hes far away isnt bright. I need to be more specific haha!That's a bad idea since Drill Rush eats all of Yoshi's aerials and can stage spike. MKs Bair comes out faster than Yoshi''s Fair so MK can effectively edgeguard Yoshi while Yoshi has to constantly gamble when he decides to go off stage since that can end his stock.
Its easy to react to Drill yes but Yoshi can't do anything about it other than throw an egg and hope it hits, its a guranteed safe option to snap the ledge and Yoshi's moves go through it? Which one?Im talking about when your at the right spacing. Its easy to react to meta knights drill and yoshis moves can go through it anyways. I did forget to mention not to attack him if your 2nd jump is gone. But yoshis fair you dont just throw out without spacing. Metaknight just cant get through the hitbox fast enough. Approaching him to edgeguard while hes far away isnt bright. I need to be more specific haha!
Do you main meta knight? I dont agree with all off this because yoshis fair is pretty fast with 2x the range then MK. Would love to get some battles in.Its easy to react to Drill yes but Yoshi can't do anything about it other than throw an egg and hope it hits, its a guranteed safe option to snap the ledge and Yoshi's moves go through it? Which one?
If you're going in with a Fair its easily telegraphed MK has multiple jumps and a teleporting down b, its best if Yoshi pressures MK on stage with eggs instead of putting himself in a disadvantage situation.
Fair requires spacing yes but the start up on that move is pretty bad compared to a disjointed Bair that comes out on frame 7, even so Yoshi is in disadvantageous situation for being near the ledge in the first place since MK covers all get up options making sure Yoshi doesn't get away without taking around 15% or more.
Yoshi needs to find other means in sealing K.O's because edgeguarding isn't one of them in this MU.
I've gottta disagree with you on the head dunk > drill run. The drill run is definitely faster to start, even though it may not be by much. Plus, take into consideration the strikes themselves. The head dunk starts at 12 o'clock and takes time to wind down to 6, while the drill run immediately starts punishing towards the side after the charge-up. Your best bet is to either neutral air as MK is winding up the drill run, or air dodge as he starts a-twisting. Range is only a small part of the equasion - by the time you notice the drill run, you don't have the time to start a forward air counter unless you have spidey-sense or some ****.Do you main meta knight? I dont agree with all off this because yoshis fair is pretty fast with 2x the range then MK. Would love to get some battles in.
I agree here. I've watched a MK player that has trained to slay yoshis and in most of the edge-guarding exchanges, meta knight comes out on top. If Yoshi gets a good forward air dunk from a bit above or gets an up-air in then that's about it. All in all, meta knight makes the edge his ***** - his multiple jumps mean he can hang out on the edge as long as needed and recover too.Yoshi needs to find other means in sealing K.O's because edgeguarding isn't one of them in this MU.
True. What we really have to fear are the tornado and shuttle loop. Be afraid. Be very afraid.Do any of you guys use Dair? If he's gonna drill rush you, you'll either do a quick trade or you'll win as long as you know when to start it up. Some of you are overestimating drill rush, some of you are undersestimating it and there's just a lot of theory craft going in every direction. Why is everyone so fixated on drill rush though? Eggs beat it out.
Personally im not even kind of afraid of nado anymore. Just shield it. Shuttle loop is kinda scary thoughTrue. What we really have to fear are the tornado and shuttle loop. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I'm afraid of tornados since I'm from the midwest. Also my reaction time on them isn't good enough yet.Personally im not even kind of afraid of nado anymore. Just shield it. Shuttle loop is kinda scary though
I believe the previous conversation of drill rush was with yoshi trying to return to the ledge. In which case the Yoshi cannot air dodge it (drill is too slow), and thus is forced to counter attack. Drill rush spiking is most effective when opponents don't' recover high, thus yoshi's egg toss would be of little help as MK would be behind yoshi (with yoshi being in between the stage and MK). In this scenario meta knight has all the freedom to choose his angle and direction (or whether to actually commit to a drill rush spike), while the yoshi has a very predictable path to recovery. Its not impossible for the yoshi, but the situation is definitely puts yoshi in a trouble spot.Do any of you guys use Dair? If he's gonna drill rush you, you'll either do a quick trade or you'll win as long as you know when to start it up. Some of you are overestimating drill rush, some of you are undersestimating it and there's just a lot of theory craft going in every direction. Why is everyone so fixated on drill rush though? Eggs beat it out.
uhhhhh, when would that situation ever have even the chance of happening? Why would he be on the other side of us if we were recovering? Why can't we just double jump back on stage to avoid that super laggy drill rush? Do we not have our double jump? If we didn't why didn't he just do something else I'm sure anything would be more effective than going to the other side of us and then drill rushing to the stage.I believe the previous conversation of drill rush was with yoshi trying to return to the ledge. In which case the Yoshi cannot air dodge it (drill is too slow), and thus is forced to counter attack. Drill rush spiking is most effective when opponents don't' recover high, thus yoshi's egg toss would be of little help as MK would be behind yoshi (with yoshi being in between the stage and MK). In this scenario meta knight has all the freedom to choose his angle and direction (or whether to actually commit to a drill rush spike), while the yoshi has a very predictable path to recovery. Its not impossible for the yoshi, but the situation is definitely puts yoshi in a trouble spot.
Otherwise the standard drill rush won't be used very frequently when in the neutral as the move is slow and does low damage with little combo utility.
When would it happen? When yoshi isn't recovering high back onto the stage, thus aiming for the ledge or if yoshi is attempting to go off stage to gimp MK.uhhhhh, when would that situation ever have even the chance of happening? Why would he be on the other side of us if we were recovering? Why can't we just double jump back on stage to avoid that super laggy drill rush? Do we not have our double jump? If we didn't why didn't he just do something else I'm sure anything would be more effective than going to the other side of us and then drill rushing to the stage.
Im confused are we trying to edge guard him and he's drill rushing to the stage?
The convo started when YoHeKing was discussing edge guarding, which warionumbah followed up on the priority of moves. I do grant it that drill rush stage spiking is situational, especially in higher level play, I wouldn't call it irrelevant though. Again I was just clarifying that because it looked like you were discussing drill rush in the neutral which you are right in that drill rush in the neutral is no threat at all.No i get that it's an option i just feel like its an irrelevant option because everything else he can do is better than that, and if there is no one inbetween us and the stage, we will DJAD back on for free. I don't get why we were trying to discuss ways to beat that when we could just ignore it all together
nair is safe on shield I think. It only has 4 frames of lag and if you start it up it should only be 5 frames and 1 frame of a hit. So even if MK perfrct sheild his grabs would have to be faster then 4 frames.Yoshi dosnt recovor low in the first place. Drill rush dosnt go through his 2nd armor and yoshi shouldnt edgaurd MK unless hes diagonally from the cliff. Its kinda easy to react to a drill rush in the first place and would be easy to tech. MK cant really get through eggs if he trys to edguard. 90% of the time iI dont even need the 2nd jump. The eggs can float yoshi basiclly all the way from the blastzone to the cliff. After hitting the MK with an egg thats when you most lilly can do true or strings with his 2nd jump.
If yoshi dodge cancels his 2nd jump he basiclly goes max jump and is invincible all the way up. Edgaurding isnt easy for MK against yoshi
EVERY. TIME. MK is so dumb to fight, especially when he has you at his golden % between 20-30% where he can do that the easiest.