MU Disscusion: Kirby Vs. Marth

EMPEROR Eevee

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
71
Location
Miamisburg, OH
Sup guys. Noticed that the forums are alittle inactive and seeing as Smash 4 has become my main game again, I'll do my best to be more active on here. So, let's get on to the point of this thread! :133:

Back in Brawl, Marth was considered one of Kirby's worst MUs, this due to the fact of Kirby's lack of approach options and poor range. Sword characters have always been a problem for Kirby and Marth's "tipper" ability made matters worst. Fast forward to Smash 4. While receiving nerfs transitioning into the new Smash Bros., Marth/Lucina have received buff after buff with the passing balancing patches. With Marth's most recent buffs in patch 1.1.4, I feel we Kirby mains may be seeing flashbacks of the old Brawl Marth.


:4kirby:Kirby Vs. Marth:4marth:


Pros for :4kirby:
???

Cons for:4kirby:
???


Pros for:4marth:
???


Cons for:4marth:
???

Discuss. I'll fill in the blanks on the main post as information is posted in the thread.
 

RetroKiirby

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 20, 2015
Messages
128
Location
The Kirby Forums
3DS FC
4270-3857-5956
Eh. I don't know much about this matchup, but I do know Kirby does bad against characters like Marth. I would say it's either even or in Marth's favor.
 

Zoramine Fae

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 24, 2015
Messages
227
Location
United States of Go Screw Yourself
3DS FC
2895-8088-7214
Hey, random user from the Little Mac forums with heavy experience for playing as Kirby, Marth, AND Lucina. If you're covering Marth, why not cover Lucina consider they are a bit different but not all that much?

I'll supply as much information for this as possible. This looks like fun~

Pros for :4kirby:


Kirby has one of the best grab games out there due to his insane Forward Throw shenanigans, Back Throw being able to kill at very late percents and getting opponents offstage, Down Throw being used to launch opponents upwards once Forward Throw stops having links, and Up Throw having the capabilities to kill, especially early on stages such as Town and City as well as Battlefield and Dreamland 64, where there are higher up platforms that will make Kirby land closer to the top blastzone. Forward Throw is especially dangerous, with Forward Air being able to link after it and Up Air linking if they DI upwards, while there is no true follow-ups once past enough of a percent and them being able to airdodge, Kirby can just resume a combo by using Down Air. If they jump away, follow and Up Air.

Kirby can also Wall of Pain Marth and Lucina (Who from now on I shall name Marcina). Due to their falling speed being lower than a character such as Roy, who can DI down in order to escape or just DI away, Marcina have to eat up the damage or attempt to hit an

Marcina also have some slight problems killing outside of reads. Forward Smash works at the ledge if you, as a Kirby, aren't careful, Up Smash won't usually kill with Marth but with Lucina is more dangerous due to not needing a sweetspot, and Down Smash doesn't really do much on the front hit and only the back hit sweetspotted will kill oftentimes. Counter won't beat Stone, even if countering the falling Stone damage

Once Kirby copies Shield Breaker, the matchup becomes slightly worse for Marcina. Their Shield Breaker cannot hit you if you crouch, while Shield Breaker will hit them no matter what they do unless they spotdodge. However, due to the raw power that Shield Breaker carries in damaging shields most players will roll in or away, giving you the option to do a semi-Tech Chase where you force them into doing an action.


Cons for :4kirby:

If you get countered when using any Smash attack, Hammer Flip, or a copied fully charged Shield Breaker, you are dead. Period. Kirby's light weight doesn't help out much against characters with Counters, and the fact that Counter is yet another killing option means Kirby has to be wary of even trying to get a kill.

If you get thrown, most likely an Up Air will kill. Due to your low weight, this move gets added to the list of kill options and if they read an airdodge, kiss your stock goodbye from your count. Marth also gets Forward Tilt, Forward Air, and Up Tilt as killing options while Lucina gets a more reliable set of Smash attacks and Shield Breaker. Be wary of this.

You cannot approach just as your nature of a Kirby and being versus a disjointed character - Marcina in particular have a good time spacing you out and keeping you away. You must play patiently and wait for one simple mess-up, which most likely won't happen if your opponent is skilled enough.




Now for Marcina's - Kirby's Pros and Cons cover what they BOTH have advantages and disadvantages, but here is where they individually get their own sections. (Shorter due to me not wanting to work on stuff about Marcina anymore)

Pros for :4marth: AND :4lucina:

Marth's Fully Charged Forward Smash tippered will ignore Stone's armor, no matter how hard you try, as it deals 25.2% and goes just barely over the threshold meaning it isn't safe to stay in Stone until he gets off the attack. Lucina does not, however.

Marth spaces better, which in turn keeps Kirby out a lot easier.

Lucina can deal with aggression MUCH easier and is better for having a get-the-hell-away-from-me resource, since her whole sword does good damage and not just the tipper. The Tipper does help, don't get me wrong, but the two of them

Lucina also doesn't rely on tippers for kills, meaning that her whole blade is used and used often for murder- I mean, destroying opposition. Forward Smash in particular is as good example of a move that is quite better due to an un-reliance on tippers.


Cons for :4marth: AND :4lucina:

Marth in specific has some problems dealing with constant aggression, and while Kirby doesn't really have an approaching game he can come in close and begin stuffing out Marth and forcing him to get sourspots. His Sourspots won't kill Kirby until extreme percents, and when in close proximity players often make bad mistakes or just throw out attacks, meaning you can get off a grab against them.

Lucina is much more respectable in this regard, but she has even more problems killing than Marth. None of her attacks break Kirby's Stone, her Forward Smash is more often used as a get away tool and can become stale, her Up Smash has limited range, and all of her other offensive options barring a fully charged Shield Breaker or a Down Air Meteor won't kill until far past 150% without maximum rage.


Hope this helps.
 

TimG57867

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
506
This matchup is...weird. Overall I feel that while Marth has the edge thanks to his sword range a air game, the matchup is a lot closer than one would imagine. Due to the nerfs he got in this game, his air game has a lot more openings than before. While his aerials will either clank or beat yours if you collide with each other, he can chain them as fast as Sheik's F-Air so Kirby has the chance to shield or air dodge and get an aerial or something in. And while he has good range, he doesn't have effective get off me options save for his Up B which will put in free fall so if you do get in on him and you pull off a nice string.

Crouch is also surprisingly effective in this matchup as it goes under his grab and dash attack. His best means of stopping this is proper use of Dancing Blade.

As far as killing ability goes, I think it might favor Kirby slightly. Kirby has wicked strong smashes, especially his F-Smash which all come out in viable time. And I think Marth has that fall speed-weight sweetspot that makes D-Air -> D-Smash a viable kill setup. And of course we have out newly buffed Up Throw which without rage should kill around 140%. Marth's Up Smash and F-Smash are all stronger if they're sweetspotted but if not than they prove to be awfully weak. That said, he has setups of his own. The prime one being a jab one to sweet spot F-Smash that while not guarenteed is definitely something to watch out for. He also has a Kill Throw of his own. While it isn't as strong as Kirby's, Kirby's light weight generally means they'll kill roughly at the same time.

Speaking of grabs, Marth's throw game is probably one of biggest weaknesses. Until you reach Up Throw kill percent, he doesn't really get much off of grabs aside from position advantage. As far as I'm aware the most he's got his a D-Throw -> Up Air that only really works on big bodies and fast fallers at low percent. So generally shielding is a relatively safe thing to do against Marth if you're under pressure. Don't overshield though as if do it too much he might call you out with his trademark Shield Breaker and if you get your shield broken against death is almost a guarentee.

When it comes to edge guarding, I think Marth has the edge simply because his sword and air speed making safer on the defense and offensive. If you're going to edgeguard him, your best bests are a well timed B-Air or a Rock as his Up B is way to fast for D-Air and Kirby's aerials in general. When recovering, you better have that air dodge button ready. His F-Air and B-Air can really catch you off guard. And be sure to space Final Cutter well as a poorly done one is a free tipper F-Smash for him. That said, he should go too crazy. Final Cutter can spike on the way down, and if he gets hit by that, not even his Up B will save him.

For copying, I suppose you could if you want. I personally don't do it but Shield Break can be a good hard read and mixup tool and if you get a shield break, you get a free full charged Hammer that'll do him in at the ledge at around 30% (yay, Hammer's useful for once!). It also combos out of F-Throw at certain percents. Although you may want to use Inhale for stage control.

For stages, Dreamland is probably the best choice as it enhances our Up Throw without giving his too much more mileage. On that note you should probably avoid Town and City.

As far the top level is concerned, we actually have had this matchup showcased quite a bit thanks to MikeKirby and Mr. E who I feel are the best Kirby and Marth respectively. They seem to go back and forth although judging by how the individual sets go it appears Mike has to be more on point.


They have more sets than this but these are the most recent and relevant ones. Don't they've played in 1.1.4 yet.


Overall, it's far from Kirby's worst matchup and certainly not one that absolutely demands a co-main although you should not sleep on him. Especially with his recent buffs.
 

breadstick24

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
19
My two co-mains. Oh I'm excited.
This matchup is amazing for both characters. That is, this match tends to be one sided one way or another. It all comes down to how much time kirby can get inside of Marth's spacing. (sorry for lack of frame data to confirm)

:4kirby: Pros: Once inside kirby can demolish marth, forward throw to U-air, up-tilt, and d-tilt shenanigans against marths (by comparison slow) get-off-me options. F-tilt pretty much shuts down whatever opening kirby leaves for marth even if it does tend to break the combo.
Grab. Grab leads to all sorts of things, from early combos for percent, to stage positioning, to that oh-so-satisfying U-throw which tends to kill around 140%. Grab is a mighty weapon for kirby.
Marth has no projectile.
Inhale. Stealing shield breaker can play great mind games as well as giving you a strong tool. Reverse momentum shield breaker is deadly when given to kirby.

:4kirby:Cons: Getting in. Marth's ability to shut down aerial approaches is something to be feared. his short-hop fast-fall F-air can, and will, keep Kirby grounded and far away.
Recovering, Marth's off stage game is strong and his ability to guard the edge is more often-than-not lethal.
Tipper. With how light kirby is getting hit by a tipper can spell death at low percents. F-Smash in particular comes out fairly quick and easily out ranges all of Kirby's moves. Kills as early as 40%

:4marth:Pros: Keeping kirby away. One of (if not the) greatest ability of Marth is spacing. keeping opponents at the end of your reach while staying out of theirs.
Dancing blade. Aerial dancing blade can either be a flurry if moves or just used to stall. Either way it gives Marth options on kirby that let him start tacking on damage.
Killing. Once kirby hits 100% almost any move will kill IF TIPPER, especially if rage is involved. F-tilt, B-air, F-air, N-air, U-tilt. All can kill. Smash attacks, of course, also kill.

:4marth:Cons: Combo's. Kirby's too light and has too many jumps to juggle very well. He can SDI out of dancing blade and what few throw follow-ups marth has don't work on kirby unless he is at or very near 0%.
Kirby's shortness. Kirby can easily duck under Marth's standard aerial spacing tools forcing him onto the ground. jab and f-tilt work but tends to let kirby get closer than Marth would prefer.
Combo Breaking. once kirby is in their is very little Marth can do. Marth's moves just come out too slow to make Kirby go away. Counter can be risky but also very effective.


For the Kirby's
You gotta stay low and wait for an opening,
Marth's B-air and F-air come out fast and follow-up dolphin slash will beat out an air dodge. Getting back to stage means going high, or sweetspotting and making sure to tech if he goes for a stage spike.
Edgeguarding marth is do-able but can be turned around if you aren't careful. That said. A well placed D-air will shut marth down just as well as every other character. Marth relies heavily on his jump to recover without it he will probably die. Kirby has a lot more stayng power when it come to being off stage.
beware the counter. Counter can shut down kirby if you go to agro. Once you start a combo react and then go for the next hit. (basically smash4 in a nutshell) This is doubly true on marth because unless you're at tipper range (which you shouldn't be) then you should be fine to punish whatever move he throws out there. Don't be above him. Marth's U-air and U-tilt can put out two sweeping hitboxes in a very short time. both of them beat out kirby's aerials.

For the Marth's
Endlag will kill you. Know what moves to throw out when and use F-tilt to keep Kirby far away. Retreating B-air and F-air should be your main tools for getting-out-of-dodge. Edgeguarding can be brutal, abuse it. Kirby's final cutter is slower than dolphin slash and has a long start-up. F-air can make Kirby use up his jumps if you go deep and rising N-air is a personal favorite kill option of mine. Approaching Kirby requires a great mix-up. throw in shield breaker to keep him on his (very lethal) toes. A broken shield kirby vs marth ends with death. Use counter properly and you'll be in good shape, that means against dash attack and F-air. otherwise it would have to be a read and the punishes on a whiffed counter can be severe. If they go for brick, roll away and either follow up F-smash or grab. You have plenty of time. F-Smash in this instance is at a good range to tipper and therefore kill.

Overall, fun match. One I happen to have a neat perspective on. Love both these characters, I can't rally give the edge to on or the other, but when all is said and done, I'd say a great Marth player would probably beat a great Kirby player. Just on the basis that Kirby is such an oppurtunistic character. 55:45 Marth's favor

Sorry for the long post, I was excited.
(also, everything TimG57867 said was true. this IS a weird matchup. Dair to D-smash works and marth's U-throw can kill a lightweight like kirby around 150% Rage dependent of course.)
 
Last edited:

EMPEROR Eevee

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
71
Location
Miamisburg, OH
Thank you all for the input. I've actually been alittle busy this past week so I'll update the OP on Sunday after reading all the info you guys posted into small, summarized quotes.
 

brady_boy_26

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 18, 2015
Messages
31
this match up sucks because we have no range while his play style is keeping people at a distance kirby has a lot of trouble vs sword characters for this reason
 

Altair357

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 22, 2014
Messages
222
NNID
Altair357
3DS FC
5284-1411-2846
Don't try to beat his aerials by doing aerials at the same time, just power shield and punish.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom