MU Discussion: Villager

[Tommy - S.N.]

The best thing villager has in this match up is the fact you have a few early kill options with good reads. Either frame trapping a recovery with chopped tree, outright edge guarding with bowling ball if they go low vertically, or possible pocket options in 2v2. If you have any brain about you though you can never get hit by any of those. I understand, heat of the moment **** happens, and it's happened to me getting hit by trees or a ledge roll getting read with a bowling ball. That doesn't mean it was a character difference though, that was the player losing. Not that character.

And again, you just admitted to being one sided right here. You are only aware of about two of Villagers kill options besides his axe which you conveniently left out. (To put it into perspective that's like me saying Yoshi can only kill with U-Smash, U-Air, and Fair when we know that's not true.) Oh and like how you continuously mention that Turnips are Villagers only positive asset in the MU. I'd go into more detail about Villagers vast amount of kill options if there wasn't already a whole post dedicated to his kill options in the Villager boards. (For Example: Jab to Axe at high percents.)

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

He agrees with us. https://twitter.com/DireOnFire/status/676103360257347584

 

[Sinister Slush]

Thanks for input and all, but still a little too heated there buddy and triple posting. Just edit your posts instead.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

Thanks for input and all, but still a little too heated there buddy and triple posting. Just edit your posts instead.

My B

 

[Delta-cod]

Friendly reminder that everyone should keep cool -- We're approaching some pretty angry territory here. I promise the posts will still be here when you get back, so don't be afraid to step away if you feel frustrated.

Also, please make sure all posts contribute to the discussion of the match up, and that we use the edit function as needed.

*ahem*

Neither character has anything substantial or super game breaking against each other. If the villager camps only then Yoshi wins, if the villager can switch from playstyles mid match then Yoshi loses most of the time.

Slush, doesn't this statement imply that Yoshi loses the match up? If we're using the standard criteria of equal levels of play, knowledge is understood by both players, then the Villager should be switching playstyles mid battle and thus, we should lose (theoretically every time but practice and theory, etc).

I don't think it should work this way in practice though. I don't think Villager's other playstyles are strong enough to cause such an effect, especially if we adapt mid-battle as well. If these other playstyles are so strong, then shouldn't he be using those from the get-go to just produce a winning match up?

 

[Sinister Slush]

No it doesn't from how I'm reading it. But at the same time that's basically what I mean, not many villagers switch up playstyles and even if they do it's too late by then cause most likely too high % or already a stock behind, and some don't even know beforehand that camping isn't the ideal strategy against Yoshi.

The running joke back then was that NA villagers only know how to camp (cause customs on timeouts and even customs off they camped only) while Japan/Ranai was the only place that knew how to play villager.
So basically saying the common villager if paired with an equally lower skilled Yoshi will most likely camp and do next to nothing except the occasional stay out moves like nair if given the chance, so at that point Yoshi has the upperhand cause abusing villagers that's just gonna keep opening themselves with lloid gives us free reign for hits.

In a high level Yoshi/villager match it becomes closer to even, possibly a smidgen in villager's favor due to them leaving less opening for hits and good zoning with slingshots and hoping for good turnip rng to out disjoint Yoshi, the problem villager will always have against Yoshi is that if he gets a hit in, he's gonna be combo'd for a good 30ish%, sure villager can return that in a couple moves but that'll take a bit of time but the plus for villager is Yoshi has his usual problems of closing that stock so villager will most likely be living past 140+% everytime and can take advantage of rage with axe bowling ball and slingshots. (ranai/DIO example of game 3, living to 160% and unable to kill him)

An aggressive villager is tough to deal with but Yoshi can still manage unless he gets caught by axe set ups or gets RNG'd by turnips. Stages also take into effect of how this MU goes, I personally hate BF and SV in this MU and think villager gets more from those stages than Yoshi as an example.


It still feels even, albeit Villager can snag a stock easier but feel like this is more of a stage dependent match up. Maybe in the future if more villager's play against Yoshi mains (cause not many do since not many mid/high caliber Yoshi mains and more villagers lurking around) it might swing into villager's favor just barely.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

This is off topic but have any of you heard of a Yoshi named Braxton back in brawl?

 

[The Wall]

All I tackled in my post was Fair, Bair, Dair, Upair, and Nair. I didn't touch specials, ground game, recovery... etc. The post would really be too long to describe all of the frame data for every move, the situations in which they're useful, how to use them properly etc. It'd be like writing a novel and I'm too tired for that kinda mess >.>

The thing I'm kinda hung on is why do we try to hypothesize everything based on "Well both players are equal in skill"? It's never going to be that situation when 2 players are playing each other, no matter your view on their skill at the time or how they've progressed, etc. I think it's better to objectively look at the players, their statistics with each character and how they've done in the matchups. I know this goes back to how Tommy was talking about Ranai has always beat DIO therefore it's a 100-0 for Villager, yet I've always beat BC so then it's backwards to 0-100 for Yoshi. I think it's best to look at what each person is doing to win their inherent matches and then see how that would stack vs the other. Like what I am doing to win vs BC compared to what Ranai is doing to win vs DIO and then mashing it all up. Probably would keep the debate heat down to a simmer instead of a boil too

Sorry I irked you Tommy, really didn't mean to. Pretty tired though and just got home from a tournament so I'll read whatever replies come out tomorrow.

 

[Delta-cod]

The thing I'm kinda hung on is why do we try to hypothesize everything based on "Well both players are equal in skill"? It's never going to be that situation when 2 players are playing each other, no matter your view on their skill at the time or how they've progressed, etc.

The general idea is to assume the two players are reasonably close to each other, so that the results of the set aren't skewed too heavily by variances in skill. Like, obviously I can smash b3$t_vi11ag3r very easily, but we can't use that to determine the MU, it's just silly. There are less extreme examples of this, but naturally you can overcome MU deficits with a large enough skill gap. That's why we try to assume "equal skill". It's an ideal model, but the idea gives us a proper framework for discussion.

Your idea is right, though. Regardless of match outcomes, you can take trends from all sets across various skill levels and compile all the data into a coherent description of the match up. For example: even if I'm crushing some noob Villager, if in the set I repeatedly was getting messed up by Loid Rocket > Fair, it's something worth investigating. Higher level matches, with more equally skilled opponents, just give us more data to work with at once.

 

[Hydrobyte]

I feel I can contribute to this thread significantly. I go by MZ | Hydrobyte, and my little cousin, MZ | Enzo is currently the the best villager player in PA hands down. Even other villager players and notable players in the PA and New Jersey regions like Biddy have said he's the best villager player they've ever played or seen in person, and he repeatedly takes sets off of great players in the area and places very well, usually top 8 in 50+ person tournaments.
Needless to say I play against him very often, almost every other day or so.

In regards to the matchup, it's not hard for Yoshi to excel, but it is definitely a challenge. I feel the matchup is pretty even, if not in Yoshi's favor. Yoshi's damage output and mix-up game can beat out a skilled Villager. Also, if a Villager player knows the matchup, SHAD is completely useless. I'll explain why later.

Yoshi's egg is rendered useless due to Villager's pocket, so the spacing game is in Villager's favor, and Villager's frame 3 Nair allow him to challenge Yoshi's combo potential. I feel the game is heavily reliant on how well the Yoshi player can play aggressively to challenge Villager's zoning potential. Also, I find that Yoshi's Fair is extremely useful onstage because it snuffs out Villager's aerial options up close, and allows for a variety of follow-ups afterward due to the stun duration it gives.
Yoshi's mix-up game is incredibly important, seeing that Villager can easily punish a lot of Yoshi's aerial options if not spaced correctly and can place the Yoshi into a position where approaching is necessary but not favorable. Shorthop -> Airdodge -> Nair or Uair can be punished by UpSmash from Villager if used repeatedly, which is difficult to deal with considering that's Yoshi's best option for getting in besides Dash Attack that avoids the Gyroid/Lloyd Rocket.

VERY IMPORTANT:
Recover high and focus on landing with Yoshi, implementing B-reverse egg lay to land safely. Either that or DownB the ledge to grab it. I say this because any good Villager player will do a "Tree Trap" at the ledge is the Yoshi player chooses to recover low, and can lead to stocks being lost at 85% (not fun)

If you have any specific information you want to know, just ask. I can provide a lot of info seeing as I play with a very experienced Villager main every other day or so. I hope this helps.

 

[The Wall]

I feel I can contribute to this thread significantly. I go by MZ | Hydrobyte, and my little cousin, MZ | Enzo is currently the the best villager player in PA hands down. Even other villager players and notable players in the PA and New Jersey regions like Biddy have said he's the best villager player they've ever played or seen in person, and he repeatedly takes sets off of great players in the area and places very well, usually top 8 in 50+ person tournaments.
Needless to say I play against him very often, almost every other day or so.

In regards to the matchup, it's not hard for Yoshi to excel, but it is definitely a challenge. I feel the matchup is pretty even, if not in Yoshi's favor. Yoshi's damage output and mix-up game can beat out a skilled Villager. Also, if a Villager player knows the matchup, SHAD is completely useless. I'll explain why later.

Yoshi's egg is rendered useless due to Villager's pocket, so the spacing game is in Villager's favor, and Villager's frame 3 Nair allow him to challenge Yoshi's combo potential. I feel the game is heavily reliant on how well the Yoshi player can play aggressively to challenge Villager's zoning potential. Also, I find that Yoshi's Fair is extremely useful onstage because it snuffs out Villager's aerial options up close, and allows for a variety of follow-ups afterward due to the stun duration it gives.
Yoshi's mix-up game is incredibly important, seeing that Villager can easily punish a lot of Yoshi's aerial options if not spaced correctly and can place the Yoshi into a position where approaching is necessary but not favorable. Shorthop -> Airdodge -> Nair or Uair can be punished by UpSmash from Villager if used repeatedly, which is difficult to deal with considering that's Yoshi's best option for getting in besides Dash Attack that avoids the Gyroid/Lloyd Rocket.

VERY IMPORTANT:
Recover high and focus on landing with Yoshi, implementing B-reverse egg lay to land safely. Either that or DownB the ledge to grab it. I say this because any good Villager player will do a "Tree Trap" at the ledge is the Yoshi player chooses to recover low, and can lead to stocks being lost at 85% (not fun)

If you have any specific information you want to know, just ask. I can provide a lot of info seeing as I play with a very experienced Villager main every other day or so. I hope this helps.

Pocket doesn't render egg throw useless at all. Even if villager catches on, the angle on the toss he uses it at is pretty bad, and you can still throw horizontal eggs to actually punish that if you're really trying. Pocket is nigh almost useless against us except purely as a defensive tool when recovering. I've actually thrown the egg as bait to a villager who pocketed it and I spiked him during the animation of him getting it.

There's more options than what you listed to get in on a Villager shooting gyroid. Running up and power shielding it is pretty easy. The delay on the start up also allows you to bypass it entirely depending on how close you are. Even if you're set to land on the villager, the close hitbox to Yoshi's body on the fair will actually explode the gyroid without taking any damage in the process, allowing the spike hitbox to hit the Villager.

 

[BC.]

Difference from Ranai to BC, Tommy, is one Villager is aggressive and calculated as ****, another is holding right before we can even choose smashville, trying to time out on stage select.
Yoshi devastates camping villagers, we've all come to this agreement.

I think this MU is more of even/0, even though the Yoshi vs Villager MU discussion was many months ago (therefore patches too) it's outdated but it boiled down to even.

Why can I always namesearch myself and expect to find slush saying something bad about me? I'll beat you or any other yoshi now easily thanks to that MU experience from wall, because quite frankly you're all washed up and terrible.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Uhh, wut
Think that's my first time saying anything bout you and I guess you must be ignoring the other people mentioning you too.

When is Houston gonna stop mindlessly attacking me?

 

[Hydrobyte]

Pocket doesn't render egg throw useless at all. Even if villager catches on, the angle on the toss he uses it at is pretty bad, and you can still throw horizontal eggs to actually punish that if you're really trying. Pocket is nigh almost useless against us except purely as a defensive tool when recovering. I've actually thrown the egg as bait to a villager who pocketed it and I spiked him during the animation of him getting it.

There's more options than what you listed to get in on a Villager shooting gyroid. Running up and power shielding it is pretty easy. The delay on the start up also allows you to bypass it entirely depending on how close you are. Even if you're set to land on the villager, the close hitbox to Yoshi's body on the fair will actually explode the gyroid without taking any damage in the process, allowing the spike hitbox to hit the Villager.

True, all pretty valid points. Maybe useless wasn't the right word, but in my experience it's not that effective in neutral, only really offstage in the case you mentioned when going for a read into a spike. Additionally, Yoshi's power shield option is a bit shoddy because it allows for the Villager player to retaliate with a grab, or spaced aerial, especially if it is used often to play around gyroid. Although dash attacking through the gyroid on startup is extremely useful for the Yoshi player. Honestly, mixing up your gameplay between defensive and aggressive play with Yoshi is extremely effective because it adds to the mix-up game that Villager struggles to overcome if done correctly.

 

[The Wall]

I honestly never worry about shielding the gyroid when approaching towards a villager. Their grab is extremely slow and easy to maneuver around. If you shield the gyroid and he goes for it, a simple spot dodge makes him miss or jab interrupts it. If he throws nairs or such which is the typical thing a Villager would do if you're that close, holding shield means he gets nothing and now you're very close to him with him not having a projectile for coverage.

 

[Hydrobyte]

Something my cousin does is if he sees you run up to the gyroid, he does a preemptive grab because most people's only option is to shield it, so even though it's slow, he gets significant reward off of it for little to no risk considering the gyroid is there. Either that or he uses the bowling ball to read the roll in. It's a situation I feel is difficult for Yoshi to get around if he tries to challenge Villager, because a lot of Yoshi's options like powershield and SHAD can be easily read and punished.

That being said, my cousin knows the Yoshi matchup to a science because he plays with me very often, so what I'm saying probably doesn't apply to your encounters with Villager players that much.

 

[The Wall]

You're probably in the same situation then that I am with BC. The things I'm saying have worked in the past and even recently against him and he has the most experience out of anyone in this city vs me.

 

[Hydrobyte]

Maybe it comes down to the styles of play then. From seeing your games, I play a more aggressive Yoshi than you do and my cousin plays a much more aggressive Villager when compared to BC. Very similar to Ranai's style of play, just a bit less refined. So maybe that accounts for our different experiences in the matchup.

Problem is, he knows the Yoshi matchup when it comes to me, but I'm positive if he faced you he'd have a hard time due to varying styles of play. Another reason I love Yoshi is how flexible he is to different styles of play, whether it be Defensive, Passive-Aggressive, or just plain Aggro like me.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Why can I always namesearch myself and expect to find slush saying something bad about me? I'll beat you or any other yoshi now easily thanks to that MU experience from wall, because quite frankly you're all washed up and terrible.

Anger much? At your level you can't call anyone terrible.


Anyway. Even mu imo though I can see Yoshi having the advantage.

 

[Hydrobyte]

Anger much? At your level you can't call anyone terrible.

Agreed.

Honestly, BC, calling people terrible before even playing against them or seeing their games is a bit arrogant, seeing as you're comparing our skill level to yours. BC's Villager, while good, doesn't take advantage of Villager's ridiculous ability for traps and setups into reads. Your spacing is sub-par and your knowledge of the Yoshi matchup only goes so far. That's like saying that because my brother mains Sheik, I can beat any other Sheik player, it's just ignorant.

 

[Garde Noir]

What's your opinion about Villager's rage options vs ours? It seems on paper that we would do better, like usual, but unfortunately, due to the nature of Villager's Nair and Fair, along with the simply obscene power of bowling Ball and Tree-guarding. Plus, with Villager's good recovery, I find that the Villagers I play have little fear of dropping a tree and immediately falling Dair offstage to cover the far option, and can quickly follow up or recover.

We on the other hand have our own Fair, but unless it hits sweet spot, which at least for me can be kinda difficult with how mobile Villager can be in his balloons, it's difficult to kill, and even when it does, a lot of Villagers can spam that B button enough. Egg tosses onto 1 or both balloons are effective but need precision, and Nair can be quickly hit, and allow for more reliable recoveries, but often still leaves Villager with his insane recovery. Any tips and tricks to edge-guarding? Any bread and butter options?

 

[Hydrobyte]

In terms of edge-guarding, I feel Yoshi can take advantage of a Villager player throwing out the gyroid before to air stall, as well as Fair the ledge to try to get those 2 frames of ledge vulnerability. I get the two frame quite often because of experience and practice with Yoshi, and their gyroid placement may allow you to spike them while they are in cooldown.

Other than that, I guess egg play can allow you to get a spike or a Nair to kill, like The Wall said earlier. And if they try to pocket the egg, you can punish them heavily for it. The issue with Yoshi is that a lot of his edgeguard potential lies in his ability to spike the opponent, but Bair gets the job done because of the multi-hit if you can read their movement.
In regards to rage potential, I feel Yoshi can have the upper hand due to his plentiful killing options. SHAD -> Uair is something I use very often if the opponent is above 120%, or 100% with stage 2 rage. But you are correct in that Villager has Fair, Bair, and even falling Dair to cover landings that can kill. Tree not so much because of the setup, and no good Villager player would rely on a tree to kill anyhow, although the 3/4 watered sapling in the middle of Smashville is something to look out for definitely. And Bowling Ball is very read dependent, so it's not really a big threat unless you put yourself in that position.

 

[Delta-cod]

Friendly reminder that posts in this thread (and all serious discussion threads, such as Match Up threads) should be constructive, not just sharp criticisms of players that add nothing to the topic at hand. If you're using players as examples to discuss missing options, playstyle differences, etc, that's fine. But there should be no attacking of others here. Also, everyone should refrain from responding to such posts in general, especially with more attack posts that do nothing to contribute. Consider this your warning -- I want our discussion threads to be productive, not cluttered with rage.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What's your opinion about Villager's rage options vs ours? It seems on paper that we would do better, like usual, but unfortunately, due to the nature of Villager's Nair and Fair, along with the simply obscene power of bowling Ball and Tree-guarding. Plus, with Villager's good recovery, I find that the Villagers I play have little fear of dropping a tree and immediately falling Dair offstage to cover the far option, and can quickly follow up or recover.

What about recovering high? As I think The Wall said earlier, recovering high lets you avoid these nasty situations, opting instead for a landing from above situation, which should be less deadly. Recovering high shouldn't be especially hard in most cases, it's not like Villager has any moves that send us at nasty angles.

 

[Teshie U]

When Villager pockets and egg, does it come back out at the same trajectory it was thrown (kind of like toon link) or will it always go a consistent way like pkt?

 

[Delta-cod]

When Villager pockets and egg, does it come back out at the same trajectory it was thrown (kind of like toon link) or will it always go a consistent way like pkt?

Consistent trajectory. It's a pretty shallow/horizontal one as well, so it's not very useful. Pocket's only good for avoiding eggs in this MU, not really for countering with them.

 

[The Wall]

Maybe it comes down to the styles of play then. From seeing your games, I play a more aggressive Yoshi than you do and my cousin plays a much more aggressive Villager when compared to BC. Very similar to Ranai's style of play, just a bit less refined. So maybe that accounts for our different experiences in the matchup.

Problem is, he knows the Yoshi matchup when it comes to me, but I'm positive if he faced you he'd have a hard time due to varying styles of play. Another reason I love Yoshi is how flexible he is to different styles of play, whether it be Defensive, Passive-Aggressive, or just plain Aggro like me.

I don't know if being more "aggressive" would necessarily be a good thing. I used to be the ultra aggressive Yoshi of this city and everyone pretty much knew I had no chill. Going in like that though on a multitude of characters and play styles could only get me so far. Eventually people knew that I would spam nair to muscle out of combos or space fairs eternally while jabbing n such. It's all been toned back to be a bit more calculated.

When it comes to edge guarding there's some things people can do differently vs Villager than other characters. When he snaps the ledge, his balloons taper off, one at a 45 degree angle towards you on the stage and the other goes straight up. I position myself to where they would end up if they roll and lob a 45 degree lazy egg to the ledge. Even vs villager it will go over the first balloon but not far enough to hit the second, actually hitting their hand on the ledge. This is also timed in a way to hit just as the invincibility is ending (or even timed to hit just BEFORE invincibility ends as a mix up to make them think they have to force an option). If the egg hits, they're now in prime position for a simple fair spike. Villager with that recovery though means unless they're at 85+ they will still live. Sending them that low though allows for you to go below now and try to stage spike or just pop the balloons. If the egg hits the ledge and they buffer an option for more invincibility, you're right there waiting to cover it. Jump: you can jump nair/dair/upair and catch them. Roll: They'll end directly in front of your face allowing for a jab 1 setup. Attack won't hit anything, you're too far. Neutral get up you can land a dash attack or neutral b for more follow ups.

An example of the egg throw to fair on Trela
Same example vs Karna

 

[Baconbasket]

Sorry if I'm not being detailed at all here, but this is what I have to say about the MU, if this is still relevant.

Villager, in my eyes, is a character to really stay on your toes with. He's one of these characters that I kinda rush to win against, but I don't play offensively. Villager wants me to mess up (I honestly see it in his eyes), and he's gonna take every opportunity to make that happen. I usually stay in the air a lot and get him into a habit. Any habit, honestly. As long as I can predict what he's going to do next, the match is mine as long as I keep him in my radar.

Eggs work so well against this character for me. Eggs, eggs, eggs. Everywhere. Down-air works well for me, too. Very well.

I just focus on getting rid of him and being practical. Villager, some to most of the time, can't handle a taste of his own medicine.