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Mr Wizard (Evo Head TO) : "Want to give smash what it wants, but community just whines on twitter"
- Thread starter Dylan_Tnga
- Start date
Foster J.
Smash Ace
The problem is we don't have a "representative" regarding this, there's probably a need for the backroom councils to be revived regarding this.
Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
Zero is a really bad figurehead for SSB4 despite his skill. Extremely childish & self centered imo.
kinbobbobkin
Smash Apprentice
If there's one thing, there is no pleasing all of the Smash community. I think it would of been a better idea if they had 2 separate matches for Smash 4, one with customs and one without customs so everyone can be happy.
TheGreatMetagod
Smash Cadet
That would be too time consuming, especially with all of the Smash 4 entrants. People already argued over whether 6 minute or 5 minute matches would be more time consuming. Doubling the matches is out of the question.
kinbobbobkin
Smash Apprentice
True, but they could of put it as a side event tournament like the Amiibo tourney at Apex this year.
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Foster J.
Smash Ace
>Greentext
MarioMeteor
Smash Hero
Well, he's right. Also, when are people going to learn to ignore Zero? He wonders why nobody takes him seriously...
This won't end well, I think, the FGC already dislikes Melee and what do you think will happen when Melee brings his ******** cousin to the party?
I'm scared :<
So much this, I hate it every time I see a message of Zero's twitter on the Smash-Reddit.
I'm scared :<
^
So much this, I hate it every time I see a message of Zero's twitter on the Smash-Reddit.
Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
I predict that after EVO 2015 smash is going to get the boot again. the FGC thinks MELEE is a slow game.... wait until they see smash 4, smash 4 coaching, people taking their time to choose customs, coaches telling people which customs to change for counterpicks... and timed out matches with dabuzzkill.
S'all good. Smash can stand on it's own two feet now we don't need EVO.
Smash 4 is a good game, but there's wayyyy too many players that are obviously scrubs / children that want the attention and glory of being a competitive smash player with none of the effort. Took me years of melee before I could get out of pools in my local tournaments, smash 4 players expect overnight results.
For Glory was the DUMBEST idea sakurai ever had. It has brought millions of scrubs to the surface, if there was no glory these guys would just whine at us for turning items off and say we're not playing smash the way it was intended to be played... but instead, because of FG, Smash 4 is drowning in crybaby children, scrubs, and idiots in general that don't understand that nobody is FORCING them to play competitively.
No hate or anything,
just out of curiosity, why the sudden change of heart?
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Space Stranger
ｓｐａｃｅ ｃｏｗｂｏｙ
I think we're all aware that FG was a flawed concept that was only good on paper. Competitive Smash primarily uses stages like Battlefield for balance since it provides characters with easier aerial mobility. FG eliminates that with every stage being Final Destination 2.0 which only benefits a portion of the cast (nemely
who benefits on ground-game). Even though it might have been a step in the right direction, I'm not sure if Sakurai is even fully aware of the competitive Smash community.But regarding the OP, the anti-customs vs. customs "war" is stupid, the EVO ruleset stated that certain customs will be restricted from play yet people still find ways to whine and complain. Examples like that alone is why Smash 4 is so divided.
Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
Well the game appears to be picking up speed. I stil think it's more geared towards casuals than melee or PM but it's a step up from Brawl (I was the original Brawl hater as some of you may remember... lol) there are more combo setups and etc. Only major issues are shieldstun being wayyy too low and the new edge mechanic that discourage hype agressive play.
It's not a GREAT game imo, but it's not horrible either.
I guess for me it's ssb64 > melee > PM > smash 4 > brawl
IDK when kids are annoying, they're annoying, however, you can't have the community grow without fresh blood (we were all kids at one point). But at the same time, we have plenty of older people/veterans setting poor examples at tournaments, within leadership positions, and maybe setting unrealistic expectations.
The difference though, is that kids you have to grit your teeth/bare with/slap when acting really dumb, those within leadership positions we shouldn't put up with.
Pretty much, though to be honest, part of me thinks it's the fault of the Smash Competitive Community. "Fox Only, No Items, FD"I think we're all aware that FG was a flawed concept that was only good on paper. Competitive Smash primarily uses stages like Battlefield for balance since it provides characters with easier aerial mobility. FG eliminates that with every stage being Final Destination 2.0 which only benefits a portion of the cast (nemely
is not an easy stereotype to dispel when it's been built up upon for 13 years and has only been confounded further through the failure of Brawl to catch on and the rise of PM.
It's most certainly a step in the right direction and does show Sakurai is at least somewhat aware (the man doubled his workload, if that's not a sign, albeit it's flaws, I don't know what is) of the competitive community. I just think he's caught in between not being full aware of the community's modern day needs/preferences, and his desire to stick to his development philosophy (to which he has openly admitted to ignoring during Melee's development). We'll just have to see if anything changes in future patches like the increasing number of 8-Player stages.
It sucks for sure, but at the same time I think this thread is also indicative of even greater problems such as leadership and the rivalry between communities. IDK you can't knock it until you try it, whether it turns out to be a disaster or not having customs on at at least one National is an important stepping stone for Smash 4 as a whole IMO.
If the worst thing is that things take forever to set up, I'd walk away happy from that compared to crap ton of misfortunes, disgraces, and revelations during APEX this year.
Well they ain't lying about the whine part. I see it more than I'd like to unfortunately.
I don't really like the direction I am seeing the Sm4sh community is heading. Not saying there isn't plenty of room for improvement though. I haven't been keeping up with the stage debate, but really, it should be pretty obvious what stages are good for competitive play and what aren't.
Customs are just horrendously executed (devs fault, and their fault for not providing an update that would take at max 2 hours to code into the CSS). Only certain custom combinations available due to limits. Talk of banning certain customs? If you are going to ban something that isn't a glaring bug or glitch then maybe you should rethink what should be "standard". I recently heard some conversation about banning custom moves from being used together with other custom moves. I highly doubt this would be a thing, but seriously guys... the fact that this was even in a conversation baffled me. To be fair, the devs said it themselves, they don't intend it to be used in competitive play and such.
The coaching thing I hope is taken care of. I mean if you're taking forever between matches you should probably know you're being a d-bag. It's good to have some thinking room, but jesus guys... we ain't debating some world crisis or anything, we just playin a game.
EVO rules should have been set in stone a long long time ago and remain unchanged (I thought they were?). EVO is not the time to experiment with last minute changes. To be completely honest, I see nothing wrong with the game exactly how it is with just vanilla rule sets and no BS. Pick your character/stage and play the damn game (so to speak) :]
Hope some respectable TO's can take the chains on leadership. As much as I love the banter and everyone's opinions on rules, TO's have the real experience and I'd trust them a lot more than even myself.
Sidt note: Last time I checked I thought the real FGC (ya kappatards don't count) was okay with Melee. Could be wrong though. I dunno jack anyways.
I don't really like the direction I am seeing the Sm4sh community is heading. Not saying there isn't plenty of room for improvement though. I haven't been keeping up with the stage debate, but really, it should be pretty obvious what stages are good for competitive play and what aren't.
Customs are just horrendously executed (devs fault, and their fault for not providing an update that would take at max 2 hours to code into the CSS). Only certain custom combinations available due to limits. Talk of banning certain customs? If you are going to ban something that isn't a glaring bug or glitch then maybe you should rethink what should be "standard". I recently heard some conversation about banning custom moves from being used together with other custom moves. I highly doubt this would be a thing, but seriously guys... the fact that this was even in a conversation baffled me. To be fair, the devs said it themselves, they don't intend it to be used in competitive play and such.
The coaching thing I hope is taken care of. I mean if you're taking forever between matches you should probably know you're being a d-bag. It's good to have some thinking room, but jesus guys... we ain't debating some world crisis or anything, we just playin a game.
EVO rules should have been set in stone a long long time ago and remain unchanged (I thought they were?). EVO is not the time to experiment with last minute changes. To be completely honest, I see nothing wrong with the game exactly how it is with just vanilla rule sets and no BS. Pick your character/stage and play the damn game (so to speak) :]
Hope some respectable TO's can take the chains on leadership. As much as I love the banter and everyone's opinions on rules, TO's have the real experience and I'd trust them a lot more than even myself.
Sidt note: Last time I checked I thought the real FGC (ya kappatards don't count) was okay with Melee. Could be wrong though. I dunno jack anyways.
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Kurri ★
#PlayUNIST
I know there are some, but does the FGC at large still believe this. Maybe those into Anime fighters (because Guilty Gear literally rewards you just for dashing forward), but I was under the impression that for the rest of the FGC Melee was becoming more accepted. Anecdotal, but I've once spoken to a few USFIV player and they were thought Melee looked pretty cool, not enough to actually play mind you, but they were entertained. Even Smash 4 was entertaining for some (so long as it wasn't a Villager).
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I only see the Melee community not being very whiny now adays, though some spacie hates comes up once and a while but that is here nor there.
PM and Smash 4 have a lot more whining over just playing the game because patches exist.
PM and Smash 4 have a lot more whining over just playing the game because patches exist.
Raijinken
Smash Master
Maybe it's time for people whining about patches to just go play a game they like that doesn't patch.
Personally, I'd rather the dev take an active role and keep the game fresh (even if it frustrates me to no end having to rely on grassroots patch notes).
Either way, part of me just wishes we'd play For Glory rules (much as I love customs and Miis) just so that we'd actually shut up and use the first ruleset the dev actually decided to give us. So many other competitive gaming communities do that, and yet Smash is so ingrained in our ancient ways of Stage Striking and no Sudden Death and Timeouts Are Bad that we think our arbitrary competitive rules are somehow innately better than Sakurai's.
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#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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This custom or no custom thing is just dumb. Why bother arguing when this one word called "preference" exists? This is why the 3DS/Wii U community is so... divided. If everyone goes pro-customs, default is nonexistent. Likewise, customs is nonexistent; default is the norm. I'm neutral when it comes to liking one of them honestly. I suppose what I said is just hyperbole, but you get the idea.
I just wish that, instead of complaining which one of the two should be the norm, people could just play the game. Nobody is forcing anyone to play customs, as is default. Play the game how you want.
For Glory as an idea sounds good on paper, but in practice.... eh. Limiting stages to only those that look like Final Destination is a problem to those that like other stages. It's only good on paper because it allows people to get an idea of how competitive Smash works.... in a "traditional fighting game" sense. Everyone adapted to the For Glory ruleset except that no FD-only stages. If we were to have a theoretical "For Glory ruleset" we would get lots of new players, but the rest would complain.
Customs need more testing; we know some of them are not good—I'm talking about the 'overcentralizing' ones here. They need further testing to see if they are broken for real or not.
Just my two cents.
I just wish that, instead of complaining which one of the two should be the norm, people could just play the game. Nobody is forcing anyone to play customs, as is default. Play the game how you want.
For Glory as an idea sounds good on paper, but in practice.... eh. Limiting stages to only those that look like Final Destination is a problem to those that like other stages. It's only good on paper because it allows people to get an idea of how competitive Smash works.... in a "traditional fighting game" sense. Everyone adapted to the For Glory ruleset except that no FD-only stages. If we were to have a theoretical "For Glory ruleset" we would get lots of new players, but the rest would complain.
Customs need more testing; we know some of them are not good—I'm talking about the 'overcentralizing' ones here. They need further testing to see if they are broken for real or not.
Just my two cents.
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Godzillionaire
Smash Apprentice
I'd say "just play the dang game" but it's gotten to the point where the complaints aren't about the actual game, rather how the game is even set up. In all honestly though if Zero is as good of a smash player as he thinks he is then he shouldn't even be worried how it's set up. Just adapt and win, unless all those tournament winnings where flukes man.
Raijinken
Smash Master
At an average level, that's the ideal way to play. But when the two largest Smash tournaments (Apex and Evo, I dunno about CEO honestly) are running entirely opposite rulesets, it makes people pick sides. If I'm pro-customs, I can't support
The issue is that the community can't decide what it wants. There's a lot of support for customs, but there's also a lot of opposition. As a pro-customs player, I stand by my view that Villager and Kong are only issues if you'd have issues against that character normally, to which I say grab another character (which brushes up against the other archaic mindset of having a single main). Nothing I've seen (or has been reported on anything I've read) has indicated that any amount of Custom Kong can beat a similarly skilled and practiced Sheik (or pre-patch Diddy, maybe even present Diddy). That observation alone can split the playerbase on customs: If they don't help, why add the complication? Versus if they don't help, why ban a bad choice instead of an uncontestable character?
I mentioned in another thread that the reason we can't settle on a ruleset is because the "community" doesn't agree on what it wants. We've got a bunch of entirely incompatible ideas of what constitutes competition and what makes a better competitive setup. Me? I think customs, for enhanced viability for a handful of characters in a handful of matchups, 3 stock 8 minutes on diverse stagelists to allow for a closer-to-neutral pick. My brother, with whom I've been playing Smash since the 64, disagrees on every single one of those points except stock and time. While we scoff at For Glory for being heavily limited and favoring certain characters, that's very scarcely different from any other competitive game where the developer sets the rules, and the players put up and shut up, or play a different game. Smash is relatively unique in the sheer volume of arbitrary rules we've developed over time to reach something we think is more competitive.
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Khao
Smash Lord
Is it really so surprising that the community is so divided on rules, when the amount of different rule options that the game itself offers is so ****ing high?
Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
Well, I'm all for this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxlPnQZzpjI
Space Stranger
ｓｐａｃｅ ｃｏｗｂｏｙ
Glorious and insightful. The two men, no, geniuses in the video have developed a new meta for the way we play Smash 4. Come to think of it, we've all been playing the game wrong. With this new meta in mind, characters such as
, Shrek, my grandpa, and will rise. Overtime, other songs such as Scrap Brain Zone, Green Hill Zone, and Sonic R will be added as counterpicks to the 3 main selected songs.I await the day our community adopts this true way of play Smash 4 competitively.
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Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
All ItemsGlorious and insightful. The two men, no, geniuses in the video have developed a new meta for the way we play Smash 4. Come to think of it, we've all been playing the game wrong. With this new meta in mind, characters such as
I await the day our community adopts this true way of play Smash 4 competitively.
All characters EXCEPT FOX.
Lava Destination.
allison
She who makes bad posts
The same can be said for, y'know, all of Melee.
Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
LOL. Such a good point.
It's because we broke melee so hard that they watered down the sequels. No matter what way you slice it. It sucks but they're still good games regardless. Just comes down to preference.
Smash 4 is just innundated with people's useless opinions though and people want things to happen overnight by complaining but not doing anything. It's gonna take time to build up. Patience is needed here.
Honnestly what smash 4 needs is the new game hype to die down and for all the scrubs / pretend competitive players to stop playing so theres more quality over quantity in smash 4 players. I believe in the game though, Ive seen some matches that were fun to watch, even peaked my curiousity.
Beach
Smash Apprentice
What Gimr said in the tweets actually makes the most sense, have a poll for the players who entered.
Kurri ★
#PlayUNIST
I for some reason agree with this. Maybe then we could get montage videos that aren't just air-horns and overused memes.
Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
There's bound to be some great smash 4 footage at EVO with which good combo videos can be made.
That's what we need mang. No more "montages" we gotta go back to combo videos. But good combo videos involve two high level players.
There is WAY too much smash 4 content on youtube which is some guy of medium - slightly above average skill wrecking some poor 6 year old online.
HE WALKED INTO MY GANON UTILT 3 TIMES. IM GOOD AT SMASH. AIRHORN.
MVboy39
Smash Apprentice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxWKPGfhjF4
I wish more montages were like this. No airhorns, no MW2 quickscope, just beautiful, unadulterated combos.
Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
Beautiful. See, this is why I have hope for smash 4. There's just too many scrubs and melee haters who give it a bad name.
Spikeez
Smash Cadet
- Joined
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- 71
Only if we got this every single time someone uploads a SSB4 montage...
IMO only half true. Sure, Melee wasn't intended to be what it is today, but that is due to the physics they implemented in the game as it just happened to work out to be great. During Sm4sh development they 'acknowledged' the competitive scene and let us know ahead of time that the customs feature will not be balanced. That is the difference.
Sigh... you understand my pain maining Falcon in Sm4sh, cuz all videos are just "memes" of him... I say "memes" because I always assumed that meme means funny. It's not funny...
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Godzillionaire
Smash Apprentice
I couldn't stop laughing at that thunder jolt gimp on ness!
Dylan_Tnga
Smash Master
Memes are NOT about humor. Memes are measured by their dankness and how overused they can become.
Do you main falcon in melee? 20GX style?
I guess that's also true, I find most memes funny doe. My grab and tech chase game are pretty weak so Melee Falcon isn't for me to main so to speak. Going from Fox to Luigi though because year of Luigi is ery year mane 20WeeGee.
Totally forgot what this thread was about... in the end, whatever rules get set by EVO, I ask that everyone please respect it. Discuss it and debate it afterwards, but please don't cry about it during the event. It will make us (and possibly SmashBros in general) look really bad.