Most efficient controller setup? In-depth look.

[option.iv]

Is there a trick to making the shoulder buttons more responsive for short hops on theGC/ProU? It seems like it is mostly all or none, for me at least.

For the gamepad/pro controller, just hit the edge of the button and slide off. For example, if i use the L bumper, i have the tip of my index finger on the left edge of it. If I use the ZL trigger on the Pro, I have it on the very end of the trigger (furthest away from your body).

For the Gamecube controller, try to press it halfway but fast. Compared to the gamepad/pro I have slightly more difficulty with this method.

 

[Vyledust]

I will have to play with it more. Thanks for that tip.

 

[DunnoBro]

I've been really doing some lab work on this, after noticing some things were easier on 3ds controls than GCN controls. (Mainly short hop aerials since y/b are so far)

I've also looked into other techs and ways to make them easier. I've taken a page from P:M players about control set-ups for most of this scheme, with a bit of a twist for sm4sh techs.

Tap Jump: Off if C-stick set to smash. On if set to attack.

Preference mostly for on/attack, and based on character. Jiggly, Kirby, or other chars who are extremely susceptible to shield grabs from their aerials, and benefit from tap jump + c-stick aerials retreating and momentum, along with the retaining of their uptilt seems like the most efficient control scheme for them.

Off/Smash for everyone reliant on pivot smashes, running upsmashes, and grounded kills/combat in general or not overly reliant on retreating aerials to the point where your margin of error will come up often.

Each option makes something crucial more difficult, essentially.

C-Smash: Retreating/Momentum Aerials
C-Attack: Pivot/Stutter Smashing

Choose which you're okay with being more difficult for your character(s)

Z: Jump
X: Grab

Z-Jump accomplishes two things.

1: Easier macros between jumping and c-stick aerials, along with retreating with the analog stick.
2: MUCH easier jumping specials. I'm still getting used to the timing for short hop, but it's a timed press like x/y so hopefully it's just a matter of time. P:M players seem to have been able to do it.

X to grab is taking some time to get used to, but it is about as relevant as attacks/specials and no directional inputs so it should just be a muscle memory thing.

L/R: Attack (L recommended if tap jump off. R if tap jump on)

This lets you more easily use this tech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqjqxVuLMf4&feature=youtu.be

You can just hold down and freely attack with the c-stick and your thumb while your index holds down the should attack.

 

[option.iv]

That tech seems pretty useful, so like you said, ideally would want a shoulder button to attack. Now which shoulder button for attack...

edit: I still think L (or R) to jump is still high priority... not making the choice any easier.

edit2: After trying it out, seem like binding attack to the same side as jump is best as you still can't use c-stick in the air.

 

[Utena]

Is there a trick to making the shoulder buttons more responsive for short hops on theGC/ProU? It seems like it is mostly all or none, for me at least.

this is annoying me so much., i use R to jump in brawl like half of the time (other half x) and not being able to consistently shorthop because of the random ass shoulder press depth is killing me.

 

[WinkO]

Im playing around with wiimote and nunchuck, trying to optimize its potential. I am a noob, although i played the **** out of 64.

C : jump
Z : shield
B : special
Up on dpad : usmash
Side on dpad : side smashes
Down dpad : dsmash
A : attack
A+B : grab

As you can see its not perfect, cause i really dont want grab to be 2 inputs. How can i make this better, if i can at all? Tap jump is off. I have taunts mapped too, but they are on 1 and 2, which take too long to hit so i dont think i would use those for anything else. Please dont just say get a different controller, unless that is truely my only option

Oh and is there even an option to put tilts on the d pad instead of smash attacks? Either its not there or I am just missing it.

 

[option.iv]

That's probably as good as you can get since there are fewer buttons to select from. Unless the game allows you to map to say the +, -, 1, and/or 2 buttons, you really can't improve upon those controls. I would honestly say just bite the bullet and play on the gamepad. It's honestly not that bad, and it's the closest to a Pro controller you can get.

 

[Metalik]

I use default controls EXCEPT I use zL as Grab and zR as Shield, IDK it's just easier to me.

 

[DunnoBro]

this is annoying me so much., i use R to jump in brawl like half of the time (other half x) and not being able to consistently shorthop because of the random *** shoulder press depth is killing me.

You should use Z. Same benefits of ideal R shorthop use but much easier to be ideal since there's no springs. I used R too and it wasn't a very difficult transition. I will say Z is still probably harder to short hop with than Y for me because there's no "Roll to A button" macro but it's also better for retreating aerials with the c-stick and specials in general.

Also, idea for my other set. X to shield, not grab. This frees up both of those awful l/r buttons to be used for easy but rare techs like the item attack. And since the attack button is directly next to it, it shouldn't be too hard using it as a grab while also achieving quicker and more reliable shields.

Gonna try it for a while to see how it turns out. I just hope I can eventually get used to short-hopping specials with Z... I'm fine with aerials with it surprisingly.

 

[DunnoBro]

Also, not about control scheme but controllers. Since there's a big need to flick the c-stick (not everyone can change it to attacks ) would sanding it down or replacing it to be more narrow/short make it easier to let go and return to a neutral position? This could also be good for breaking habits since it'd be a new sensation to help avoid old muscle memory reflexes of just holding on..

 

[option.iv]

Well, the stick would still be loose, and that seems a bit extreme. I'd rather just train my mind to get used to it than mod the controller like that.

 

[shapular]

Im playing around with wiimote and nunchuck, trying to optimize its potential. I am a noob, although i played the **** out of 64.

C : jump
Z : shield
B : special
Up on dpad : usmash
Side on dpad : side smashes
Down dpad : dsmash
A : attack
A+B : grab

As you can see its not perfect, cause i really dont want grab to be 2 inputs. How can i make this better, if i can at all? Tap jump is off. I have taunts mapped too, but they are on 1 and 2, which take too long to hit so i dont think i would use those for anything else. Please dont just say get a different controller, unless that is truely my only option

Oh and is there even an option to put tilts on the d pad instead of smash attacks? Either its not there or I am just missing it.

I use down on D-pad for jump and C for grab when using Wiichuck.

 

[DunnoBro]

Well, the stick would still be loose, and that seems a bit extreme. I'd rather just train my mind to get used to it than mod the controller like that.

It wouldn't be loose, I meant just sand down/get the nub to have less purchase and thus easier to let go of. Not the whole thing.

 

[FOcast]

Thanks! I've been lurking the smashboards forum for quite some time and made this account just to post in this thread.
I changed avatar a few times, but I am guessing you saw the one with Shulk.
He's currently my main/favorite too, and I've played a bit of Xenoblade, and Smash reignited my interest for it!

Setting the c-stick to tilts seems perfect for Shulk, but is it hard to do his Nair with the stick?
It would be incredibly useful to be able to do Nairs without letting go of the left (movement) control stick.

I'm maining Shulk as well, and working on my c-stick arial game. Nairing with the c-stick is a bit tough, but it's all about practice when you're learning these kinds of things. I recommend going into training mode and drilling by doing shorthopped arials in every direction sequentially with the c-stick (Fair -> down-forward nair -> dair -> down-back nair -> bair -> up-back nair -> uair -> up-forward nair -> repeat). I've found constant air control to be essential with Shulk given how important his spacing game is, so this has definitely been worthwhile for me.

Edit: I should mention my most common problem is trying to FF Fair edgeguard people and instead getting FF Nair, which is instant death offstage.

 

[Blitzern]

I suppose this would be the best place to ask this question. I'm thinking of getting one of my controllers modded to have a rounded PS3 analog stick as well as the L and R trigger springs removed. I just want to know if both these mods are legal by tournament standards.

 

[option.iv]

I suppose this would be the best place to ask this question. I'm thinking of getting one of my controllers modded to have a rounded PS3 analog stick as well as the L and R trigger springs removed. I just want to know if both these mods are legal by tournament standards.

It's really up to TOs on whether or not a controller is allowed. But usually any turbos and modded triggers are generally not allowed.

Also, it's been reported that when you de-spring GC controllers, they don't register properly on Wii U. I can confirm they don't register properly either.

Also, the Pro controller and Gamepad both have that rounded joystick, why not try those?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

It's really up to TOs on whether or not a controller is allowed. But usually any turbos and modded triggers are generally not allowed.

Also, it's been reported that when you de-spring GC controllers, they don't register properly on Wii U. I can confirm they don't register properly either.

Also, the Pro controller and Gamepad both have that rounded joystick, why not try those?

I for one really want the octagonal gate. I started to remap my controller after reading this thread and I can already feel the air movement improvements. Jump is on z now, grab on x and shield on L and y. C-stick is on smash for pivot smashes. I have no problem with just flicking the stick for air attacks.

 

[option.iv]

I for one really want the octagonal gate. I started to remap my controller after reading this thread and I can already feel the air movement improvements. Jump is on z now, grab on x and shield on L and y. C-stick is on smash for pivot smashes. I have no problem with just flicking the stick for air attacks.

I assume you're talking about GC controller, so wouldn't Y be a better button for grab so boost grabs can be done with a roll of the thumb? Yeah I know boost grabs aren't super necessary, some may argue that running, into shield, into grab out of shield is better. But it doesn't hurt to have that option.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I assume you're talking about GC controller, so wouldn't Y be a better button for grab so boost grabs can be done with a roll of the thumb? Yeah I know boost grabs aren't super necessary, some may argue that running, into shield, into grab out of shield is better. But it doesn't hurt to have that option.

I have rather small hands so x feels more comfortable but it doesn't hurt to try, thanks for the hint.

 

[Linq]

I play using the Pro Controller with L set to jump, ZL set to shield, R set to attack, and ZR set to special. This makes it so you never have to re-position any of your fingers, assuming you have your index fingers on the bumpers and middle fingers on the triggers. I also have X set to grab to make pivot grabs easier, but otherwise I just press shield and attack at the same time so as to eliminate any finger movement.
As there is no finger movement at all (beyond pressing the buttons down) this seems to be the most efficient layout possible for any controller.

 

[Pazx]

I play using the Pro Controller with L set to jump, ZL set to shield, R set to attack, and ZR set to special. This makes it so you never have to re-position any of your fingers, assuming you have your index fingers on the bumpers and middle fingers on the triggers. I also have X set to grab to make pivot grabs easier, but otherwise I just press shield and attack at the same time so as to eliminate any finger movement.
As there is no finger movement at all (beyond pressing the buttons down) this seems to be the most efficient layout possible for any controller.

I think you win.

I use a GCN controller with defaults aside from Tap jump off, z jump, x grab. Any suggestions for what to do with R? I almost exclusively shield with L.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I think you win.

I use a GCN controller with defaults aside from Tap jump off, z jump, x grab. Any suggestions for what to do with R? I almost exclusively shield with L.

I don't use R at all.

 

[Linq]

I use a GCN controller with defaults aside from Tap jump off, z jump, x grab. Any suggestions for what to do with R? I almost exclusively shield with L.

I think making R into either Special or Grab would be good. With your current layout, if you were planning on using a special then suddenly needed to use a grab (or vice-versa), you would have to skip over the A button (the biggest button) entirely in order to get to it, increasing finger strain and reducing reaction time.

 

[Vyledust]

I play using the Pro Controller with L set to jump, ZL set to shield, R set to attack, and ZR set to special. This makes it so you never have to re-position any of your fingers, assuming you have your index fingers on the bumpers and middle fingers on the triggers. I also have X set to grab to make pivot grabs easier, but otherwise I just press shield and attack at the same time so as to eliminate any finger movement.
As there is no finger movement at all (beyond pressing the buttons down) this seems to be the most efficient layout possible for any controller.

After playing with this setup for a day, I can say that this is awesome. For me. It might not be for everyone, and it took work to change muscle memory and all, but it really is interesting. I changed X to jump and A to grab and nothing on L. Why? I did not want to get used to L jumping if for whatever reason, I have to use a GC controller. X is a better substitute for me for ease of shorthops. Also, shield+attack grab is first choice, but A grab is ok also, since you can not jump and grab at the same time, so one finger for both works. A is already under my thumb anyways.

 

[Silokkes]

Ok, I've been thinking about the controls in this game to find the most efficient setup. First off, I'll have to bring up certain points about controls in this game. I'll be prioritizing efficiency over comfort (what you're used to). Though comfort will still have some influence in picking the right controls.

Reasoning:

Spoiler

1. Movement and tilts require an analog stick. So this means dpads won't cut it, nor arcade sticks. ANALOG IS REQUIRED.

2. Shields in this game are not analog like in Melee. They're either on or off. You can't control the density/size of shield. There is travel distance on analog triggers like the GCN (registers shield about halfway). Therefore, a DIGITAL BUTTON is optimal.

3. Up-smash & Up-B out of shield is technically jump cancelling into up-smash. This can be replicated with either pressing JUMP + Up-A or Up-B, or JUMP + c-stick up (smash). Therefore DISABLING TAP JUMP is optimal. Also grants you ability to go straight into up-tilted shield.

4. C-stick is a macro for the control stick and attack button. This can be replicated by the control stick and attack button. At the time of this post, c-stick does not behave as previous smash iterations in that it inputs 1 frame of control stick + attack. For however long you hold the c-stick, it holds the input. During the held time, you cannot use the control stick to move, because you're essentially using it up already on the held c-stick. Despite this, C-Stick is still optimal because of inherent throw on the analog stick. Players need to be sure to NOT hold the c-stick for aerials.

With c-stick set to smash, easy pivot fsmashs can be done. Dash, pivot, then c-stick fmash.

Setting c-stick to tilts (attacks) is another option (allows movement while held). When hitting diagonals, neutral attack is registered. You cannot angle ftilts with c-stick alone. Also you lose access to easy pivot fsmash. To do a pivot fsmash manually, you need to hit the pivot and A button on the same frame, otherwise you get a tilt. With c-stick set to smash, the macro does it for you, and you don't have to worry about hitting pivot and attack at the same time.

In general, if you want easy pivot fsmash, set c-stick to smash. If you want maximum aerial control of nair, set c-stick to attack (tilt).

5. For the most effective aerials, Jump should be bound to a shoulder button. This offloads jump from your thumb to a free index finger. No longer do you have to move your thumb from jump (i.e. X/Y) to c-stick. You can have your thumb already on c-stick.

6. There is NO NEED FOR TWO JUMP, SHIELD, OR GRAB BUTTONS. This frees up a button to reassign.

7. Grab is a macro for shield + attack. Optimally, it's best to keep this macro because there is still human error when pressing two buttons at the same time. However, this button can be given up and reassigned.

8. There may or may not be input delay with wireless devices. For now, it's up to user discretion.


Because of the reasons above, the old 3ds, wiimote, and any arcade sticks are out.

That leaves Gamepad, Wii U Pro Controller, GCN Controller, Wiimote + nunchuk, Wii Pro controller/PDP Fightpad, and finally new 3DS (not out in NA yet).

For optimal controls:
- Shield must be bound to a DIGITAL BUTTON
- TAP JUMP OFF
- C-Stick set to SMASH or ATTACK
- Shoulder button set to Jump


Example Layouts (assume unlisted buttons are default):

Gamepad/Wii U Pro Controller/New 3DS

Spoiler

TAP JUMP OFF
C-Stick set to Smash
L = Jump
X = Grab

This layout honestly feels the most efficient the more I play with it. Setting a shoulder button to jump gets rid of the "weird" placement of the right analog stick. It's no longer just your thumb controlling jump and aerials. You offload jump to one of your index fingers. You can just as easily up+a/up+b out of shield (i.e. L+R+C-stick up). The fact that the shoulder buttons on these controllers are digital opens up many more possibilities. X is Grab to allow easy boost grabs. ZL and ZR can also be set to jump or shield if you're more comfortable with those compared to the L and R shoulder buttons.

The cons with all the wireless controllers is logistics. Depending on the environment (locals, online, tournament) syncing and desyncing can play a huge factor. Also no one has done a concrete test on input lag. All these controller configurations take up time to setup for the first time. There is no way to retain controller configs on your controller when moving from system to system. Like how gaming mice store their information in onboard memory.

In the end, you'll keep hearing "play whatever feels comfortable to you." Seriously though, this is a new game, it's not the same Melee/Brawl you remember. As surprising as it may sound, the GCN may not be the "best" controller for this game.

So I have the old 3DS but I'm thinking of getting a new controller. Especially if my circle pad falls off. So if I shouldn't get the GCN controller, which one should i get? Also, on the old 3DS, should I start using shoulder to jump? I'm having a hard time short hopping with the shoulder button as opposed to the X to jump. I normally just slide my thumb off the X and onto the A.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think you win.

I use a GCN controller with defaults aside from Tap jump off, z jump, x grab. Any suggestions for what to do with R? I almost exclusively shield with L.

Set it to attack. It lets you use that new item attack AT unhindered, pretty neat for chars like megaman or link who want to hold onto their items but still keep their amazing fsmash. Might want to switch c-stick to attacks if your char has a good ftilt, like sheik.

Also, after spending WEEKS trying to get z-jump to work for me, I nearly caved but tried my old platinum gcn controller. Plays like a DREAM.

Anyone having trouble short hopping with Z-jump, listen: It's probably the spring on your Z isn't set right. Ideally, you want it as extended and springy as possible. Just barely fitting into the controller and trying to pop out when it's in is the ideal. This lets you more quickly let go of the Z since it works with you letting off the pressure. I didn't think it'd make that big of a deal but it does. Definitely helps with those 1-2 frames you might be struggling with.

 

[Trickerhere]

For 3DS I like Y as grab. When I get the Wii U, I will probably have Y once again as my grab for the gamepad. However, for my gamecube controller, I like Y as shield and L as attack. Tap Jump off on all of them.

 

[One Tilt]

My input is likely a bit odd, but the grip in my right hand is too loose for me to manage trigger jumping (minor finger amputation'll do that, apparently). I'm pondering if there's honestly even much advantage to be had, though, considering that c-stick now just mirrors the input of the control stick anyway. I'll still c-stick some pivot smashes, but I don't use the c-stick in the air at all now (I'd only used it in melee for Ken combos anyway, as far as air useage, IIRC). I can certainly see myself spiking with it, of course, considering fast-falling nonsense, but I'm just not feeling like I'm at a disadvantage for being unable to use the triggers and the left stick simultaneously for, say, short hops and whatnot.

I have a differing setup to propose for the pro controller, and it's based loosely on what I used for the 3ds: it's optimized for slide inputs on short-hopped standards and specials:
B: Standard
Y: Special
A: Jump
X: Jump
R: Grab
ZL/ZR: Shield
R-Stick: Smash
Tap Jump Off

Both jump buttons have a purpose, in any case, as diagonal-down slide inputs are far easier this way for either attack button, while A makes for the closest button, making short hops as mechanically intuitive to input as possible, since you have the most leverage over the A button of any. L is unused, as I don't really feel much need for a second grab button in the ergonomics (LZ shielding is easier to input from a dash or such, but RZ shielding allows for easier teching and air dodging by freeing up the control stick). The problem with trigger-jumping is that it creates an inability for me to share movement controls between hands-- exactly what tap jump screwed me over with so often in melee. Simultaneous inputs on the same side of the controller just don't feel to have the same response time. Bumper jump is a long-known trick for pulling off right stick manuverability in FPSes, actually, but the question here becomes is that a necessary parallel? I can rest the crook of my thumb atop the R-stick to retreating Fair with it or the like after an X shorthop, or I can bring down my index finger to mash down on it for a spike if need be, really, but you're trading grip control for that lessened thumb movement, which means you need to alternate your grip between right and left hands on the controller at different moments. Too firm with the left and you mess up a short hop, too firm with the right and you lose response time on grabs and shields. Just keep in mind that face-button grabbing is manditory for trigger-hopping setups, as a result. Even so, it's a tradeoff between what you want finer control over: the timing and spacing of your attacks by gripping left-handedly with minimal left trigger controls, or gripping right-handedly with no 'finesse' controls mapped to right (i.e. short hop).

As a simple test, try controlling yourself with a trigger-jumping moveset without holding onto the right side of your controller-- the moment you put the burden of carrying on the left hand, the control method rather falls apart. Now, in a conventional setup, short-hopping is still affected by a right-hand-only test in the same manner, but the question is of how many buttons you'd rather impede your reactions with. The sticks are important, sure, but that means jack if you're inputting terrible tilts or can't even fire Fox's laser without pause from laying into the button too firmly with your grip-hand. The reason it works for FPSes is because the face buttons are not important during combat. It will certainly still work for granting you better stick-only-air-games, if that's what you're into, but don't forget that you're sacrificing a small bit of finesse with your right triggers and face buttons as a result. You might argue that the extra control of the L-stick would equalize that, but needing to use your trigger fingers for light-touch inputs like a trigger short hop during dashes and the like feels like a trade, not strictly haggling a flatly better control of things.

Of course, I can hardly present a non-biased stance when I've got a minor physical handicap all but preventing me from using the trigger-jump effectively, granted, but I felt it worth mentioning just on the basis that I feel like most players are apt to take their grip for granted, and mightn't realize what that may affect. Dividing work between right and left hands is certainly as important as in a PC game, but if hotkeys on the side of a mouse keep you from clicking as accurately, the tradeoff's rarely worth freeing up one's left. Feel free to take my words with a grain of salt, but I imagine that situations where your lost control becomes evident may crop up. I can't test any myself, mind you, but if someone could test tricky, face-button-stressing techs that might exist, comparing the grips would certainly be informative.

Right or left 'gripping' might, by the by, turn out to be like inverted or not-inverted controls, for the record, in that some minority ends up favoring one or the other to no tangible disadvantage or such. Honestly, though, the way the C-sticking of S4 works has me skeptical, to say the least.

 

[SSS]

I use GameCube controller. Here's my set-up:

= movement
= smash
= taunts
= attack
= special
= jump
= jump
= shield
= shield
= grab
= pause

Tap jump on.

 

[danzibr]

Is b-sticking a thing in this game?

Before I embark on redoing my muscle memory, I'd like to know if attack, smash or special is optimal for the right stick. Based on the information in this thread (and others) it seems attack is best.

 

[One Tilt]

Is b-sticking a thing in this game?

Before I embark on redoing my muscle memory, I'd like to know if attack, smash or special is optimal for the right stick. Based on the information in this thread (and others) it seems attack is best.

Attack and smash are largely seen as equivalent, to my knowledge. If you're not going to use tap jump or a trigger jump, though, there's not much point to using attack, as it's mostly used for no-face-button-air-mode. Smash is still handy for easier input on pivot smashes and dash up-smashes (even with DACUS out). If B-sticking helps you to do something quicker/easier, then by all means.

 

[DunnoBro]

After practicing perfect pivoting, and feeling like flicking was more difficult with the control stick than c-stick... I remember basic button engineering and how the c-stick was actually designed for flicking. I replaced my gray control stick with a spare c-stick, and from the input of myself and several other players at Xanadu we all came to the conclusion that perfect pivoting was noticeably easier.

One player was one who could perform the perfect pivot itself, but had trouble doing anything out of it originally. He was able to do stuff out of it more consistently with this.

Across the board though, it was only minor/moderate help as there were still plenty of failed PPs.

The thicker, shorter nub demands less overall movement of your thumb, thus less room for error. We also didn't really notice much difference in feeling during normal play, though after extensive play I did find slight issue with tilts turning into smashes. Likely either due to new controller jitters, or timing issues, since you're able to get into position quicker with the shorter nub and thus the game recognizes your quicker inputs as smashes.

I also noticed ledge trumping with characters that need to down cancel is notably easier, since it also a low frame movement of the control stick. And it also seems that sanded down control stick ports to make it rounded instead of an octagon also help with this, since it makes the sliding motion from down > inward to stage more fluid. (As well as allowing for more room for error)

Conclusion: C-stick may be the best control stick for sm4sh. Rounded edges are once again recommended, but with more universal reasons for doing so.

 

[DunnoBro]

Actually it seems like it was the third party c-stick I had that made it easier, it was slightly taller and no grip surface, just plastic so easier to let go. The extra height helped when perfect pivoting while dashing to the right, which felt awkward with an official c-stick due to the height.

Interesting..