Most agitating kill

[Solutionme]

Forgot to mention Ganoncides. It's annoying that Ganondorf loses his stock after his opponent, because now Ganondorf can literally Ganoncide twice and WIN. With other character's suicide kills, they die first, so it should only be used when they're at least a stock ahead, but not Ganondorf...

It's pretty fair considering how easy it is to just camp him, though if he gets the bowser treatment I would not mind a nerf similar to bowsercide. But yeah, it is pretty dumb seeing someone plank in general if that's the part that annoys you.

 

[Rhydon65]

I hate it when I play as Marth and I get KOed because my timing on his counter was wrong. It's mostly my bad, but I swear some people just magically know when I'm about to input a counter. And I'm not talking about the predicable read situations either, like when they follow up after sending me into the air.

 

[Tiberious]

It's pretty fair considering how easy it is to just camp him, though if he gets the bowser treatment I would not mind a nerf similar to bowsercide. But yeah, it is pretty dumb seeing someone plank in general if that's the part that annoys you.

Explain what you mean by "Bowser treatment".


But for the most part, I agree. Despite the fact he improved from Brawl, Ganondorf is still garbage and low-tier. Worst part is that some of the patches actually made him worse in certain ways (DSmash now sometimes fails to set up for the second hit from the first, meaning he's punished for free on hit).

Don't get me wrong, I love Ganondorf, and he's obviously my main, but he's so bad that he needs that threat to keep him from being relentlessly gimped. It's one of those things that threatens to instantly even the match back up on a first stock, or to steal victory from the jaws of defeat. And yes, I will Ganoncide you without even the barest shred of remorse. If you're trying to gimp my recovery, I'm going to make you pay for screwing up with your stock.

And the hell of it is, it's a slow move, plus leaves him helpless if he misses. It's the epitome of an all-in, and if you're consistently getting grabbed by it, you are at fault for being predictable enough to make it a valid option.

If you want to take that tool from him, you have to immensely improve his recovery game so that he doesn't die for free off-stage. Think Melee recovery options on steroids good. Well, that or buff both recovery and his defense up (in smaller amounts, obviously) so he's not off the stage as often, and can get back more reliably when he does.



TL;DR: Ganoncide is legit as-is, and changing it would make him the undisputed bottom-tier character.

 

[Solutionme]

Explain what you mean by "Bowser treatment".


But for the most part, I agree. Despite the fact he improved from Brawl, Ganondorf is still garbage and low-tier. Worst part is that some of the patches actually made him worse in certain ways (DSmash now sometimes fails to set up for the second hit from the first, meaning he's punished for free on hit).

Don't get me wrong, I love Ganondorf, and he's obviously my main, but he's so bad that he needs that threat to keep him from being relentlessly gimped. It's one of those things that threatens to instantly even the match back up on a first stock, or to steal victory from the jaws of defeat. And yes, I will Ganoncide you without even the barest shred of remorse. If you're trying to gimp my recovery, I'm going to make you pay for screwing up with your stock.

And the hell of it is, it's a slow move, plus leaves him helpless if he misses. It's the epitome of an all-in, and if you're consistently getting grabbed by it, you are at fault for being predictable enough to make it a valid option.

If you want to take that tool from him, you have to immensely improve his recovery game so that he doesn't die for free off-stage. Think Melee recovery options on steroids good. Well, that or buff both recovery and his defense up (in smaller amounts, obviously) so he's not off the stage as often, and can get back more reliably when he does.



TL;DR: Ganoncide is legit as-is, and changing it would make him the undisputed bottom-tier character.

I was thinking more along the lines of being able to move faster and have some slight heavy armor so he can't get camped easily, which is the same problem Bowser had in melee which continued through to Brawl, but Ganon didn't have it that bad in Melee since he could clearly move faster, which is why I'd like to see that come back.

 

[Foxus]

Yes, Ganon has been heavily improved. As least he doesn't run like a girl anymore.

Ganoncide (like the Bowser Bomb), really benefits no one. You might be getting an extra KO, but you immediately lose it because you SD

 

[Ze Diglett]

Explain what you mean by "Bowser treatment".


But for the most part, I agree. Despite the fact he improved from Brawl, Ganondorf is still garbage and low-tier. Worst part is that some of the patches actually made him worse in certain ways (DSmash now sometimes fails to set up for the second hit from the first, meaning he's punished for free on hit).

Don't get me wrong, I love Ganondorf, and he's obviously my main, but he's so bad that he needs that threat to keep him from being relentlessly gimped. It's one of those things that threatens to instantly even the match back up on a first stock, or to steal victory from the jaws of defeat. And yes, I will Ganoncide you without even the barest shred of remorse. If you're trying to gimp my recovery, I'm going to make you pay for screwing up with your stock.

And the hell of it is, it's a slow move, plus leaves him helpless if he misses. It's the epitome of an all-in, and if you're consistently getting grabbed by it, you are at fault for being predictable enough to make it a valid option.

If you want to take that tool from him, you have to immensely improve his recovery game so that he doesn't die for free off-stage. Think Melee recovery options on steroids good. Well, that or buff both recovery and his defense up (in smaller amounts, obviously) so he's not off the stage as often, and can get back more reliably when he does.



TL;DR: Ganoncide is legit as-is, and changing it would make him the undisputed bottom-tier character.

Even if Ganon is bottom tier, it makes no sense whatsoever that even though literally every other suicide move in the game kills the user first, Ganon gets a free pass with his, which is especially confusing considering that you can actually break out of the Swallowcides (and ROBcide only works on, like, two legal stages and still kills R.O.B. first, if we're counting that). They were perfectly content with patching up Bowsercide after the game came out (and rightfully so) even though Bowser is already in low tier, so there's practically no excuse for them to not fix Ganoncide at this point.

 

[Solutionme]

Even if Ganon is bottom tier, it makes no sense whatsoever that even though literally every other suicide move in the game kills the user first, Ganon gets a free pass with his, which is especially confusing considering that you can actually break out of the Swallowcides (and ROBcide only works on, like, two legal stages, if we're counting that). They were perfectly content with patching up Bowsercide after the game came out (and rightfully so) even though Bowser is already in low tier, so there's practically no excuse for them to not fix Ganoncide at this point.

It's fair because he is too slow or doesn't have a good approach otherwise, Dedede has a projectile, a d-tilt that moves him, and like 5 jumps with decent air speed. Bowser just moves quick and his has very little landing lag and doesn't force him into free fall. Kirby is in the same boat as Dedede minus the projectile and attack that moves him on the ground. Also Robcide? Does that work with moving platforms? If so that one is situational and could get patched? Ganondorf doesn't have the movement speed both in the air and on the ground and lacks the projectile for that to be done to him. Personally I think the damn thing along with his recovery should be buffed to have super armor so he isn't so gosh darn easy to wall out.

 

[Tiberious]

Yes, Ganon has been heavily improved. As least he doesn't run like a girl anymore.

Ganoncide (like the Bowser Bomb), really benefits no one. You might be getting an extra KO, but you immediately lose it because you SD

Incorrect. It has exactly 4 outcomes in FG/current tournament rules, two of which benefit Ganon, one is a minor loss, and the other is a spite/pride move.

From best to worst:

1) Opponent has no stocks left. Opponent dies first; Ganon wins.
2) Both players have a stock left, but Ganon's behind on damage. Ganon evens match, no matter the damage deficit.
3) Both players have a stock left, but Ganon's leading in damage. Ganon surrenders the lead back to an even state.
4) Ganon on last stock. Ganon takes the opponent's stock, but loses right after. Only to be used if you can't stomach the idea of being 2-stocked.


In fact, some of the most disrespectful matches I've played were where an opponent tried and tried to finish me off, only for me to get the KO first, and then Ganoncided their 2nd stock when they tried to edgeguard me harder. Other times, I'll use it if I've taken a massive damage deficit on the first stock and they've been aggressive with their edge play. Funnily enough, they tend to respect my recovery afterwards.

 

[Ze Diglett]

In fact, some of the most disrespectful matches I've played were where an opponent tried and tried to finish me off, only for me to get the KO first, and then Ganoncided their 2nd stock when they tried to edgeguard me harder. Other times, I'll use it if I've taken a massive damage deficit on the first stock and they've been aggressive with their edge play. Funnily enough, they tend to respect my recovery afterwards.

Aaand that's exactly why I hate it.
What, you're trying to edgeguard someone in Smash Bros? Say goodbye to your stock at 0%, buddy! God forbid you go in for a kill when your opponent has an offstage easy button at their disposal.

 

[CptPuff]

Any sort of meteor. Dunno why, those always get me a little salty.

 

[Networker1]

Ness B-Throw... or any throw that kills under 100%, but mostly ness.

 

[Duplighost]

-> -> -> "Okay!"

 

[Xzsmmc]

Accidental suicide due to a botched fastfall or something.

 

[Tiberious]

God forbid you go in for a kill when your opponent has an offstage easy button at their disposal.

Says the main of a character who's got both a braindead approach and higher-tier zoning options. Yes, SideB is a ********-good approach tool with way too much mobility than it should have. Plus, you've got top and laser for when you want to keep an opponent out. Not to mention all those nice disjointed Air attacks that also help with recovery. Hell, ROB's biggest weakness is the fact he's got such a giant ass when he's knocked down he's easy to hit again.

Ganon has... what, an 8-frame jab and a 15-frame DTilt as his fastest attacks? Yeah, let's also mention his laughable grab range on the slowest attempt ever, where in order to catch someone they've gotta be completely asleep and able to tell what he had for breakfast in the morning.

Bluntly, Ganoncide is the defense mechanism he has to keep from being preyed upon easily by the rest of the cast.

 

[Saucen]

Pardon my ignorance but what is Ganoncide?

 

[Ze Diglett]

Says the main of a character who's got both a braindead approach and higher-tier zoning options. Yes, SideB is a ********-good approach tool with way too much mobility than it should have.

Huh, Arm Rotor is an approach tool now? I never knew that, I should definitely try putting that into practice sometime!
Sarcasm aside, any R.O.B. main can tell you that Arm Rotor isn't even close to being a viable approach option, and I'm not really sure where you got the idea that it is? Sure, it has more mobility than it did in Brawl, but not to the point where you can get away with spamming it or, God forbid, approaching with it. It has approximately 2.8 years of startup and endlag, making it only useful as a somewhat decent punish tool/reflector at best. Heck, most professional R.O.B.s don't even throw out Arm Rotor during tournament matches at all.
And even if what you said was true, how is bashing me over my main helping your case, and what does it even have to do with the post you quoted? Last I checked, I wasn't attacking you for maining a character I don't like. Honestly, it's quite immature to say to someone "oh yeah well you main a braindead character so your opinion doesn't hold any weight" in any situation.

Bluntly, Ganoncide is the defense mechanism he has to keep from being preyed upon easily by the rest of the cast.

I'll just say this, "power creep" should not be an excuse for a character to get special treatment, especially considering that this is Nintendo who's doing the balancing. It's not like Dedede or Bowser are exactly high tier either, but they still follow the general rule of "suicide moves kill the user first." A character being bad shouldn't make them a "special snowflake" when it comes to game mechanics, and I still don't see why Ganon should be an exception.

 

[Blumiere]

Trying to get up attack a Dedede charging an FSmash at ledge and getting knocked into it by a gourdo as it's fully charged and getting KO'd around 40%.

 

[Solutionme]

Ze Diglett, stop picking on ganon and both of you stop fighting, it isn't doing any good. Ganon deserves it because (irony) the game designers designing it feel he deserves it, and personally I agree considering his lack of good approaches where as other heavyweights with suicides have approaches. Also no Tiberious, R.O.B.'s side b isn't even that good, and he isn't as crazy as you think, just throw his top in the air and you pretty much destroy R.O.B.'s camping game, his throw kill wasn't even justified tbh when it got removed. But long story short, yes ganon is awful, don't pick on one of his actual good qualities, especially when Nintendo is the one doing the balancing, not you. If you want to complain about that property, then do it when ganon gets a fair trade off for it.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Ze Diglett, stop picking on ganon and both of you stop fighting, it isn't doing any good. Ganon deserves it because (irony) the game designers designing it feel he deserves it, and personally I agree considering his lack of good approaches where as other heavyweights with suicides have approaches. Also no Tiberious, R.O.B.'s side b isn't even that good, and he isn't as crazy as you think, just throw his top in the air and you pretty much destroy R.O.B.'s camping game, his throw kill wasn't even justified tbh when it got removed. But long story short, yes ganon is awful, don't pick on one of his actual good qualities, especially when Nintendo is the one doing the balancing, not you. If you want to complain about that property, then do it when ganon gets a fair trade off for it.

Thank you, Professor Minimod.
But why shouldn't I "pick on one of his actual good qualities"? I swear, it's the power creep argument all over again... and I don't care who's doing the balancing, I'm allowed to hold grievances and take issue with Nintendo's many questionable balancing decisions. And you're right, Ganoncide is an unfair trade - and that's precisely what's wrong with it.
But alright, if you say so. In the interest of not derailing this thread too much, this will be my last post in this thread on the matter. And honestly, I am beginning to tire of this discussion myself.

 

[Tiberious]

And the real hell of it is, we're actually in agreement, at least at the highest level of the discussion. Neither of us want that to be one of his best options.

The only place we disagree is how to do it. I want a SSB4 Ganon that has a 5-5 against Melee Ganon (thus just as good) so that he doesn't need it, and the way Ze Diglett has been going on, he wants it just gone with nothing in return, which would make him essentially an auto-lose at character select. That's why I've been so vocal in defense of the old man.

 

[Solutionme]

Thank you, Professor Minimod.
But why shouldn't I "pick on one of his actual good qualities"? I swear, it's the power creep argument all over again... and I don't care who's doing the balancing, I'm allowed to hold grievances and take issue with Nintendo's many questionable balancing decisions. And you're right, Ganoncide is an unfair trade - and that's precisely what's wrong with it.
But alright, if you say so. In the interest of not derailing this thread too much, this will be my last post in this thread on the matter. And honestly, I am beginning to tire of this discussion myself.

I didn't even say it was an unfair trade, I'm only saying it will be unfair when he actually has a good approach option. Also stop being dense and overall rude. You're not wrong about being able to pick on a character's good quality so you have your point made, but it isn't like Ganon is Sheik who definitely needs her fair share of nitpicking. Also questionable or not, the team's balancing is justified for almost the entire cast, as I stated before that Ganon is the only character with a suicide move to have no good approach options at all.

Edit: You're also using the power creep argument completely wrong there, since it is actually more balanced if you only group suicide moves together, and bowser's before his nerf was arguably the best because it was so much easier to camp with it since it is easier to suicide with due to having very little landing lag and covering a good amount of distance, and is the only one which can kill without suiciding.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

I'd say being KO'd by R.O.B.'s up-air is annoying. I always hate fighting against that character when he does nothing but spam laser and gyro. His down smash has ridiculously good range as well. It really punishes me when I'm trying to roll.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

Pardon my ignorance but what is Ganoncide?

Ganoncide (Ganon Suicide) is when Ganondorf hits you with his side B while he's trying to recover and he pulls you to the abyss. The victim dies before Ganondorf, so Ganon can actually win with that move.

 

[Reila]

Being K.O'd by Link/Toon Link's forward smash or by an uncharged smash attack of a Lucario because of its bs aura mechanic is reaaaaaally obnoxious.

Also, SDing by mistake by messing up Pikachu's quick attack or when trying off-stage Thunder.

 

[pokelogan89]

My personal least favorite way to die is holding your smash attack a millisecond too long and your opponent gets a counter off. I feel like it just kinda steals a rightfully deserved win. However, I do acknowledge that it was my mistake.

 

[Arle Nadja]

Today I was playing All Star Mode on Hard. I've been doing this for most of the week. I've noticed that even on hard all of the enemies attacks have greatly reduced damage/knockback.

...Except for projectile attacks.

While most melee fighters have to take me to around 300% or gimp me before I really feel threatened by their attacks, fighters like Mega Man terrify me because of their powerful projectiles. Dedede's gordo does more knockback than his fsmash and I can get KO'd as early as 80%. I rage SO HARD because this makes NO sense to me. It makes characters that sit back and spam projectiles the only relevant characters in the game. Characters like Shulk are a joke, whereas characters like Samus and Mega Man are game breakers.

Seriously, what were they thinking? There must be a better, less frustrating way of making this mode challenging.

 

[Big Blue]

Ness' back throw, just the process of being pummeled to death and then thrown across the stage just makes me feel dirty. Link/Shulk's forward Smash also agitate me because of how long the attacks are, I always have a brief moment of denial before getting hit by the second swing to KO.

 

[CrazyPerson]

Anything that is honestly the fault of "That controller.": Until recently there was no controller debate, then someone decided to switch to gamecube. Trying to be a good host I took the one with an iffy thumb stick that won't go up... I had lot's of self destructs. (I am getting these fixed soon.)

Getting pwned by the lag monster: Self explanatory... dieing when I know I wouldn't have if the game didn't lag on me.

Gust Bellows: That item never should have been added to the game... Item is cheap (item itself, not bashing those who use it as you would be stupid not to take the advantage.)

Dieing to a game changing item that spanwed where only one person had a chance at getting it.

When I repeatedly make the same mistake and die for it... hard to change habits.

And Counter Moves... when only 2 characters had them it was meh ok... It is insane at this point, especially under certain rule sets that are being pushed online.

 

[Ryan.]

I hate the ones where I am just helpless and can't get out of them, like Bowsercide and Ganoncide lol.

 

[Rinku リンク]

- Getting super armored by Little Mac's Smashes (KO punch is also really annoying).

- Zelda's Up-B (Way too much knock back)

- Roy's F-smash (Way too strong)

- Getting gimped

 

[Quarium]

Any stupidly early kill a Lucario might get on you because of Aura. It is amazing how the moment the Lucario is somewhat good I already have to play so goddamn careful that it isn't even fun.