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Momentum canceling for Luigi?

hippiedude92

Smash Hero
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Wishing Apex 2012 happened again.
Just wondering do we have any momentum cancelling tricks for luigi? I was watching the momentum cancelling video and saw how squirtle used his sideb to completely escape the hitstun. Now if we applied that to luigi's sideb, it can perhaps let us live longer? Here's the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx3ixgO_i8o @ 2:20 it says it can work for luigi.

So you think we can live longer luigi boards? =/
 

kigbariom

Smash Lord
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Sep 27, 2008
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Boston, MA
We can certainly live longer because it cancels almost all of our momentum and a misfire would be so great. Tricks are hard though because of the lag after Luigi's green missile, he is stunned for such a long time that I can't see anything that would lead to something tricky.
However, because we can charge the green missile we can interpret where the enemy is on the stage and judge it from there. I'm really really trying to think about what we can do with this but nothing comes to mind.
 

Eten

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Messages
580
Well, Fair first obviously. Fair->Fastfall on the fair I suppose. I guess we have two options to try after that, green missile and cyclone. Out of habit I think most of us use the green missile and it does make Luigi one long-lived plumber, I don't know how the cyclone works out in contrast or if we would even want to use it then and in that way. Fair and green missile works pretty well I mean remember when Themann posted about living as long as Snake in this thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211332
 

hippiedude92

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Wishing Apex 2012 happened again.
Isn't it suppose to be the fastest aerial that comes out first or the fastest aerial that ends first or is it both? Cause Fair comes out at frame 7 and upair comes out at frame 5 and Nair comes out the fastest with frame 3 but idk i could have read it wrong o.0;

So basically with luigi's momentum cancel it's just Fair, fastfall then a green missle to escape the hitstun? o.0;
 

Eten

Smash Ace
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The aerial that ends first. You can use an aerial or airdodge to exit hitstun sooner than you can jump out of hitstun. You can fastfall as soon as you use an aerial and leave hitstun(but you can't fastfall when using an airdodge, which is why using an aerial > using an airdodge). You want to fastfall because fastfalling helps in canceling out your vertical momentum upwards. It doesn't actually matter what aerial you use for this though since you can start them all at the same time(the difference in when it "comes out" is for when the hitbox first appears, and that doesn't mean a thing in this situation). However, you'll likely want to jump or use a B-move for recovery and to fight against your momentum at the soonest possible time, so you want to use the fastest ending aerial you have. For Luigi that's his Fair.

And then it comes down to what moves counteract your momentum the best. Like in the video shown, some b-moves and even your second jumps will boost you *away* from the stage when you still have momentum from being hit. So even though a move like Fox's shine can let him stall his momentum in the air normally, it'll actually bounce him even further out if he tries to use it to stop his momentum after being hit. But some moves are better than others- G&W's bucket ALWAYS completely stops his momentum, both vertical and horizontal, and doesn't give him a boost away from the stage, so it's super effective.

I think for Luigi his green missile is a lot like squirtle's shell slide- it does a pretty decent job of fighting against your horizontal momentum without boosting you away.

So basically short answer,
Exit hitstun as soon as possible and fastfall with a fair(fastest ending aerial)
then green missile.
Everyone does this atm anyway...

oh, and DI as best as you can when you get hit by DIing perpendicular to the initial trajectory(most of the time that's up and towards the stage, or on vertical hits that means DIing horizontally.). This is pretty good for Luigi cause you just mash the A button while doing this and almost always do a fair this way and then you should input a fast fall as soon as you can. If you got hit horizontally outwards(think snake's ftilt) when you DIed perpendicular to it you put some of that knockback into a more vertical trajectory(cause you DIed both up and towards the stage) which you want to fight against with the fastfall, and fastfalling against a vertical knockback move is obvious.

I'm somewhat notorious for being really hard to KO in the group I play in, I used to play Samus in Melee where she was a tank, and Luigi has an incredible recovery this time around. Hardest move to DI properly, imho? Luigi's very own up-angled Fsmash, as habit to DI any strong knockback smash is to DI up and towards the stage, which in this case... just DIs you into an even straighter vertical trajectory for quicker death, where you really need to DI slightly down and away, which is counterintuitive. EX: A no DI snake doesn't get KOed until about 96% from up-angled Fsmash, but you can KO him off the top as early as ~86% if he DIs up and towards the stage, while living to maybe about up to ~105% if he was DIing the correct way. Funny thing is is that you need about the exact opposite DI if luigi uses his down-angled Fsmash.
 

hippiedude92

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Dayum. So basically green missle acts like squirtle's sideb exactly? Lol. I didn't notice I've been doing it to fight the momentum cause I'm so caught in the fight o_O. And the aerial thing definitely clears up things.

good **** eten prob have more questions but i gotta go in abit
 

Nefarious B

Smash Champion
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Dec 13, 2008
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Frisco you know
Isn't it suppose to be the fastest aerial that comes out first or the fastest aerial that ends first or is it both? Cause Fair comes out at frame 7 and upair comes out at frame 5 and Nair comes out the fastest with frame 3 but idk i could have read it wrong o.0;
It's different for vertical or horizontal KOs.

For vertical kos the main goal is to start fastfalling asap. You gain the ability to fast fall as soon as your aerial -starts-, so whichever one begins fastest is the one you want for a vertical KO.

For horizontal the goal is to be able to do other things asap (jump or missile), so you want the aerial that ends the fastest.
 

Eten

Smash Ace
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Aug 29, 2006
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All aerials start the frame after you press the button on the controller or something like that. The only difference is how long it takes for the *hitbox* on the aerial to come out. So... if you gain the ability to fast fall as soon as your aerial -starts-, it doesn't matter which aerial you use to get out of hitstun early other than how fast the aerial ends.
 

LuigiKing

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Yeah, the best way to momentum cancel is just Fair asap and green missile. Fair has so little cooldown I find myself living longer than a lot of heavy characters just because it works so well to cancel momentum. Having a Fair like that is better than being as heavy as, say ROB, you will seriously live longer once you know what you're doing.
 

hippiedude92

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Wishing Apex 2012 happened again.
It's different for vertical or horizontal KOs.

For vertical kos the main goal is to start fastfalling asap. You gain the ability to fast fall as soon as your aerial -starts-, so whichever one begins fastest is the one you want for a vertical KO.

For horizontal the goal is to be able to do other things asap (jump or missile), so you want the aerial that ends the fastest.
for the vertical kos, do you use Dair or still use Fair then fastfall?

*Sees eten online lol*

I've never really noticed green missle fighting back the momentum before =P.
 

Eten

Smash Ace
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I've never really noticed green missle fighting back the momentum before =P.
Go to a big course so you can see yourself even when you really go flying and are not offscreen. Fair outta hitstun, green missile. The green missile won't go the usual distance! It looks like an exceptionally wimpy green missile. Kinda like how Squirtle's shell slide made him sit in place for a few moments first.

So in that sense, you're even better off if you misfire. Pretty sure it's possible to get hit by a really big hit that sends you flying but you got a long distance to go, fair outta hitstun and start to green missile in time but to never be able to cancel enough momentum in time to stop yourself before you hit the blastline.
 

Delvro

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All aerials start the frame after you press the button on the controller or something like that. The only difference is how long it takes for the *hitbox* on the aerial to come out. So... if you gain the ability to fast fall as soon as your aerial -starts-, it doesn't matter which aerial you use to get out of hitstun early other than how fast the aerial ends.
As odd as this may sound, there was a lot of testing about this back in September... what was discovered was that the frame of the hitbox coming out *does* affect the effectiviness of fastfalling an aerial to guard vertical KOs, as well as the total number of frames of the move.

Technically, our best aerial to fastfall for vertical KOs is the fair... but I use the dair because it's easier (you can just hit c-stick down, rather than c-stick left-right while at the same time holding down on the joystick)

To guard against side KOs, a green missle is great to use after a fair... although I think jumping immediately after the fair helps you survive to a higher percent, sometimes you don't want to jump (especially since I'm not Boss and can't do a jumpless rising cyclone)
 

CR4SH

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I find that as far as side-kos are concerned, jumping after fair more often kills you off the top than it saves you from the side. Fair to missile tends to be the best option.
 
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