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Mindgames Tutorial

Umbrasquall

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
504
Mindgames
~ Beyond the Combos ~​

I noticed that there has been a FAQ on everything smash related, except mindgames. Anyone that has asked so far has been told that mindgames cannot be taught. But I believe that there are basic tenets of this technique that can be helpful to everyone if listed out. Since the last tournament, I've realized how important mindgames are if you wanted to be any good at all beyond learning the techniques. So I quickly jotted down what I have noticed about mindgames by watching videos, and my own playing experience. Note that I'm far from an expert on this subject. Like my Online Play/Vista FAQ, the ideas here are pretty basic, and I hope everyone can contribute a little to make this a good guide.

~~~

Elementary Techniques

1. Motion

This is simple to understand. It's always important to keep moving in a game. This makes you unpredictable and harder to hit. Know your character well and know which techniques you can do quickly straight out of a dash when the opportunity presents itself. Standing still by using the excuse of getting ready to edge-guard is also not an excuse. It's much better to stay in motion and jump back into the edge-guard position the instant before you do it. There are very specific methods to counter edge-guards and being unpredictable will heighten your chances of a successful guard. Sub-techniques of motion include dash-dancing, teleporting, etc. A caveat is to vary your motion. The goal here is to try to be unpredictable, if the only thing you're doing is dash-dancing and attacking, or rolling an smashing, then your opponent will figure out your pattern easily and adjust to pwn you.

2. Fake-outs

Another easy to understand, but harder to master technique. Faking your opponent out will help you confuse your enemy. Keep an eye out for an opportunity to jump in and land a good hit and/or start a combo. There are two main types of fake outs.

a) The first is the defensive fake out. This type of fake out involves using rapid, small movements and attacks to keep your enemy at bay. You're basically playing games with your opponent's head. A very well implementation of this by malva can be seen starting at 1:35 in this match against moogle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kOcIpyUqgw

b) The second type is the offensive, "bait", or "set-up" fake out. This is done by doing an attack that obviously will not hit in an attempt to lure your opponent into attacking. Of course, you will need to know the timing well enough so that you are ready when the other character rushes you and do the appropriate counter setup. A very obvious video demonstration of this strategy by malva against tigerbombz can be seen at 2:59 of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrQXlKvTD4w

Intermediate Techniques

1. Keep calm (Juggernaut momentum factor)

When someone starts owning, they sometimes can be on a streak for 2-3 stocks, or even 5 stocks. Sometimes you can do semi-well in against a person, but having lost the first round, you get owned in the second one. I refer to this as the momentum factor. The momentum factor is a very important mindgame and there are several things to be aware of about this addicting/humiliating phenomenon.

We all know how exciting it is when you've got your opponent in a combo, it feels good. And that's when you screw up. Your victim gets a lucky DI in, or hits a wall and lands on the ground. It's important in these situations to just STOP briefly and calm down. Your opponent is on the ground, and he has only 4 choices of action. He can get up and attack, just get up, or roll in two directions. It's pretty obvious what which way he is using as soon as the animation starts. Once you know, you can then land an appropriate attack before he gets the chance to shield or escape, so not to lose your momentum. The same works if you're the one being comboed. I cannot recall how many times that I've panicked and rolled predictably in an attempt to escape, only to get ***** further as my character stands up. (Video ex. of Kurtis panicking in a match against malva, I'm sure you've all seen it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouUooMEHqig Note all the mistakes Kurtis made.) The important thing to keep in mind is to STAY CALM. Think about what you're doing. Take a small breather on your spawn platform and don't rush into anything for a while. Revenge is sweet but make sure you're clearheaded enough not to screw up again. Running away a little bit and match stalling for a few seconds is totally acceptable and will help your opponent lose his ownage streak. If you are familiar with sports, this is the exact same strategy basketball coaches employ when the opponent team is dominating. The coach will call a timeout to help break the streak.

2. Use the environment

To play smart, you have to know how each stage can help you. I'm not talking about mastering ledge-grabbing either, although that would be good. I'm talking about knowing things about the game that can save you in a pinch. Like which stages you can go through after an up-b move, knowing that Link's up-b extends through the structure on the right side of Hyrule, knowing that the lava in Samus's level will shoot you up and to the opposite direction you're facing (video ex. 0:39 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_5OMw6EWUQ, etc.

Advanced Techniques

1. Play smarter

This is probably the hardest technique to master. You really can't achieve with one night of practice. You have to understand the game innately. How each character moves, the hitboxes for each attack, the priority... etc. Look at 1:38 of this video, where malva does a b-air with pika as to get out of the range of fox's up-smash: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urUBMrtXwyA It is subtle things like that that normal people all miss in the face-paced action that makes the difference.

You will need to out predict your opponent. Essentially, you always have to be one step ahead of your enemy. Adjusting your combo to which way you predict your opponent is going to DI is a good example. And when you're on the defense, predict how your attacker will predict you will DI and DI in the opposite direction... etc etc and back and forth. This is what separates most of the elite players from the good and advanced players. While it is obviously harder to think ahead of a better player then a poor one, experience will help you adjust. And until you really get a feel of every aspect of the game, this step is going to be a pain because there's just not enough time to think about what you're going to do in a fast-paced round.

~~~



Mindgames are essential to be any good. Mindgames and unpredicatableness differentiates a good human player from a really good computer player. Practicing combos in training mode will only get your so far. You can have the best reactions in the world, and have mastered all the techniques and combos for every character, and still get owned by a player who doesn't know any techniques but can out maneuver you mentally. That said, I hope my input on this topic helped some people, and I hope others can add to what I've said. Good luck smashing everyone!
 

rokimomi

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Include the ability to read the opponant's style and possible patterns wich comes in handy during fights with new people. And/or the ability to change styles from round to round.

Good guide btw
 

Mekanos

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You're a great analyser. That means you got potential to improve. I analyse a lot too, but you put them up all the info in one FAQ, good job.

Studying the opponent throughout the game is also what I do. It makes you think what moves you can do to gain the advantage. Strike predictible moves and avoid unpredictible moves.

Excellent reader.
 

Umbrasquall

Smash Ace
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Feb 1, 2007
Messages
504
Thanks for the comments everyone. I'll add the suggestions so far after I get back after class. Anyone that has any other advice feel free to add them!
 

Nephiros

Smash Ace
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HA! And when i asked nephiros to teach me mindgames his responce "U CANT LOL" Btw sticky!
Well I don't know uh, to me "being unpredictable and predicting what your opponent will do" is just the logic thing to do so I didn't need anyone to tell me, nomsain?
 

Nintendude

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This isn't exactly mindgames but something really important is peripheral vision. That is, constantly watching your opponent rather than just yourself. A lot of people have a tendency to get caught up in what they are doing so they fall into traps and stuff easily.
 

Thino

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This isn't exactly mindgames but something really important is peripheral vision. That is, constantly watching your opponent rather than just yourself. A lot of people have a tendency to get caught up in what they are doing so they fall into traps and stuff easily.
true. sometimes people focus too much on spamming lazers , hitting the opponent or not <_<
 

malva00

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Mindgames
~ Beyond the Combos ~​
b) The second type is the offensive, "bait", or "set-up" fake out. This is done by doing an attack that obviously will not hit in an attempt to lure your opponent into attacking. Of course, you will need to know the timing well enough so that you are ready when the other character rushes you and do the appropriate counter setup. A very obvious video demonstration of this strategy by malva against tigerbombz can be seen at 2:59 of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrQXlKvTD4w
what are you talking about I obviously did that up smash in case he rolled that way not for some kind of fake out
 

Umbrasquall

Smash Ace
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Messages
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what are you talking about I obviously did that up smash in case he rolled that way not for some kind of fake out
Haha I guess that's what you get for being the best, you get over analyzed. :D

In any case, keep up the comments, I'm drafting some changes to the thread but I don't have enough yet. I've only been playing for 4 months and I don't have enough experience with real games to know everything yet. :p
 

Umbrasquall

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Fox wasn't towards his right at that time... But that could be, but it was how I interpreted it because I sometimes back-air with pika to move myself out of the range of an attack. :)
 

Johnknight1

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Very good guide, this could help experienced and inexperienced players alike. Lol, reminds me of a match I had yesterday, were I was facing someone (I was Mario, they were Samus in a 3 stock match) did a 50% KO combo to me, and had taken no damage while i was down a life. I simply gathered myself, and I ended out winning with 2 stock with 10 or so % left, and virtual reversed the effect. I think my fireball spam did them in, lol! :laugh:
 

Umbrasquall

Smash Ace
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Nice John. I've noticed changing tactics works very well in the middle of the round too. Usually I'm a very offensive player, unless I play someone who I know is good, then I maybe too conservatively. But just today, I was playing my friend's fox as link, and I was on my last life, while he had 3 left. I was being offensive up until then so I lost a few stock at low damages because of getting thrown off (everyone hates Link's recovery). But I changed tactics and started playing defensively and my friend only managed to hit me for ~20% damage for the rest of the game. ^^
 

PikashoX

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yeah changing tactics is awesome...like when you're in FFA and you somehow get unlucky and end up with one life while everybody has five....you go from offensive to campensive :laugh:

but i agree with nintendude1189...people get too caught up with their characters.

good guide umbrasquall. it gives unexperienced players a sense of what mindgames are. but i still believe experience is the most important factor.
 

Johnknight1

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Nice John. I've noticed changing tactics works very well in the middle of the round too. Usually I'm a very offensive player, unless I play someone who I know is good, then I maybe too conservatively. But just today, I was playing my friend's fox as link, and I was on my last life, while he had 3 left. I was being offensive up until then so I lost a few stock at low damages because of getting thrown off (everyone hates Link's recovery). But I changed tactics and started playing defensively and my friend only managed to hit me for ~20% damage for the rest of the game. ^^
Lol, I noticed I forgot a zero (I ended with around 100%, as oppose to 10%, which I accidentally put), but my opponent missed one combo and I took total advantage. I did Mario's down air, followed by Bdown, and Bup, which made him hit the bumper in the air (It was Peach's Castle, of course), and my opponent took major damage. This is where he obviously starts loosing his cool, begins making stupid moves, and charges in stupidily and very obviously.

Then my opponent leads up with a obvious grab, so I roast him with 3 fireballs, then he shoots at me with Samus' gun, which I blocked with ease. So he starts trying o grab me again, and I keep rolling back, and I charge hhim while he's retracting the grapple beam, so I charge him and use my Aside. I do it 2 more times while he's on the ground, he kicks me, doing some damage, and he charges me.

Needless to say I rolled behind him, grab him, and throw him. He trys to recover, and hits me with a blast of Samus' gun, then performs his Bup to land, but I intercept with my Aside in air, KOing him. Then he kept foolishly coming at me with his Aside, and attempted mulitple grabs. Virtually the only time he got me was with a 30% or so combo, and with 3 Bups. I got him to totally steam at the end, lol!

Plus I used my enviornment much better, utilizing the bumper and using it to my advantage. Keeping calm, knowing your enviornment, and knowing when to rush in and how are key to success, as well as victory. Sounds like that is how you won Umbrasquall, lol! Funny how I beat somehow who would clearly own me with superior skill with my mindgames, and proves how one mistake could do you end if you aren't careful, lol :) :laugh: :)
 

felix45

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really once you break free from trying really hard to do combos you will realize how much of the game is mindgames. combos help no doubt but prediction is infinatley easier and more effective. I have killed some of the best players online by purley predicting their every move while edgegaurding with dash attacks and fairs as fox. same thing with shine spikes, if you can predict their second jump you can get an easy kill with fox out of pure predicion. you just cant get caught up in tech skill is all.
 

Johnknight1

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how did you remember each move?
I remember the intense battles (which is a lot of tem), plus it happened like 22 hours before I wrote that, lol! Also I do those that, because I do combos basically the exact same combos using the enviornment over and over again. So in other words, I do the same thing over and over again, so it is hard for me to forget, lol! :chuckle: :laugh: ;)
 

Nephiros

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I'm pretty sure predicting the moves of the top players is harder than doing combos. Unless by experienced you meant "above average"
 

Box_of_Fox

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Lovely thread, I've always been fascinated by the concept of mindgames, mostly because I do not have time to practice the subtle nuances that lie behind combos and the like. So what I try to work with is changing my moveset and pace of the match to make up for a lack of technical prowess.

So I'd actually like to add to this thread (if that's possible, you may paraphrase my theory as you see fit if you do add it) with a synthesized postulate I've come to follow when I play both 64 and Melee. It took me a while to form this idea, and I studied matches from both games, and observed the behavior of both pros and amatuers. Before I wrote this post I watched about 30 different 64 or Melee matches on youtube or on Netplay, about 80% of them were pro or partially pro, and the remaining 20% were less competative matches. 24 of the 30 included Isai, Ken, Sensei, Kizu, Mikyael, Bombsoldier, PC Chris, Superboomfan, there are more but I'm really too lazy to list them all...Ironically, the more experienced smashers, especially in Melee, are less accomodating in terms of helping me synthesize-- why? Because their playstyles are so much more bent on combinations and knowledge of priority/hitbox/throwback than on mindgames.

This isn't always necessarily true, and I don't claim that experienced players don't have mindgames, in fact, experienced players often have the best mindgames, they simply do not need to utilize them as often because their combinations and pre-determed techniques are sufficient enough in order to win.

Move-Space Advantage

Move-Space Advantage is something I partially put together a few weeks ago, and I find that the more I play and watch, the more the idea holds true for those a few notches below pro/top/have-no-life-amazingly-good players.

In those 30 different matches, I noted that most players use about 8 damaging attacks, (and a specific 4 of the 8 used most often with significant frequency), about 4 different means of altering the space between themselves and the opponent (this could include a roll, a wavedash in any direction, a shorthop that fastfalls slightly backward or moves forward slowly, circle-jump, etc etc), and only about 3 different ways of directly anticipating someone's attack (a down-shield dodge, for example). The last thing I noted is probably the most important--every non-pro smasher (and obviously a few pros as well) abuse about 1-2 mechanics, or series of actions (such as a combination between one of the core 8 attacks and one of the core 4 "spacers"), every match.

Now obviously the moveset of any given character clearly goes beyond these numbers, but players TEND to use these core 8-4-3-2 set when given a situation. So what am I getting at?

If you can figure out your opponents 8-4-3-2 after you've played them a few times, you have an advantage the moment the next match begins. Some people are fast enough to figure out their opponents 8-4-3-2 as a match is OCCURING, and in fact this is what people often define as a "mindgame."

Here's an example: Look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQNPJYX3DBI --specifically, 0:58 to 1:01. You'll note that before this point, especially around 0:52, Isai watches Takamitsu repeat the high-priority, slightly delayed and good throwback Fair of Luigi about 3 times. But at 1:01, Isai sees it coming, and Dsmashes perfectly.

If you look at the match as a whole, and apply the 8-4-3-2, you'll note that a non-sh jumping Fair/Uair near the base of the trunk of the tree is one of Takamitsu's core 8 attacks.

If I could categorize the Move-Space Advantage, I'd put it under "intermediate." All (at least) marginally experienced players have the 8-4-3-2 mindset in their heads, they simply do not clarify it.

One might accuse me of simplying giving a name to "noticing patterns in the opponent's moveset and acting accordingly", but the MSA gives you the edge you need in a match, even when you're opponent changes tact. The most experienced players aren't burdened by an 8-4-3-2 -- they can change their techniques completely, if the need should arise.

Wow just had to get that out there. *Sleeps at keyboard*
 

felix45

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Very true. Spacing is half of the mindgames you will do.


Here is a simple example. Say there is a kirby noob above you. you know the dair is coming and it is going to be fast falled. so in order to dodge it you wait for the fast fall then dash out of the way, then dash dance back when it lands (or to be safe fsmash when you predict kirby will hit the ground or maybe a few frames before that)


spacing is most definatley a major part of mindgames. in fact it is almost everything in mindgames. only other mindgames is taunting really.
 

Umbrasquall

Smash Ace
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Feb 1, 2007
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504
Awesome, thanks for your analysis Box. I actually have spacing already in the 2nd draft but you explained it even better than I did, and found a video example! The idea behind the 8-4-3-2 core game play style analysis is amazing and something that most people would find hard to put into words. Thanks, I'll put it in right away. I have finals in the next two weeks, but I definitely try to update the topic as soon as I can.
 

Box_of_Fox

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 17, 2006
Messages
338
Thank you, I could articulate even more and go off on all kinds of tangents but school = Box tired.
 
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