Mind Over Meta #29 - "Why Project M?"

[Nexus| Taka]

PMPNC 3.7b is coming out eventually, can't wait.... sponsored by PNC bank

It doesn't really matter, because it's the sheer amount of changes that is problem. As for changes I don't like, Dedede's nerfs and the change to the meteor cancel window to match Melee.



This again?
Melee is not just Fox. Fox has gotten small nerfs but everything else is being changed to sound, feel, and match Melee. Is this project's goal to be Melee + new characters or something different?

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

Oh, look, childish debates in the comment section. What a shock!

 

[badangadang]

Oh, look, childish debates in the comment section. What a shock!

fite me m8 i have over 1000 confirmed debates

 

[standardtoaster]

Excellent statement on modding. There is one concern I have though about how they got some of the past stages in them.

When perusing through brawl vault I would usually go for texture and model swaps rather than imports because I'm not comfortable with cutting the assets out of one game and pasting them onto another. That seems closer to stealing than me drawing a picture of goku by hand for example.

I know the pmdt was adamant that mewtwo's assets were made completely from scratch, same with Roy I believe, and I really like the hd remakes of the 64 stages. But what about like fountain of dreams or hyrule castle 64. Are they handmade or ripped from the old games?

They were handmade stages.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Naturally, the iterations of Project M from 3.02 and earlier were moreso designed to have Brawl characters that could fit in viably against the Melee top tiers.

Re-imagining how Brawl characters might function in a Melee-type environment was something that had never been done before, and so the P:M community was (and still is) essentially a large-scale beta testing program.

3.5 cut out a lot of the jank, and 3.6 added even more cuts, causing players to rely more on their fundamentals rather than just their character.

In order for PMDT to refine their game as much as possible, they needed to take risks, find out what doesn't work, what sort of works, and what does work but could use slight adjustments.

Recent updates have reflected that they realise this, especially since the changes between characters as of 3.5 to 3.6 have had no large overhauls of character designs, aside from things like Olimar's Up-B, and Ice Climber AI problems, which really needed to be addressed.

From this point on, character moveset designs are most likely solidified, so we won't be getting huge overhauls anymore. Balance tweaks will probably be more similar to Smash 4 from this point on.

As far as "matching melee" goes, the fact that they even decided to 'nerf Fox' kind of goes against that statement, and shows they aren't afraid of nerfing even Melee top tiers to achieve balance, if need be.

A lot of the statements you made would've been true in the past, but I can't say the same regarding the most recent versions of Project M. The game is starting to become more refined as they gather more data.

I will admit, and I agree, the game has improved with each new version, 3.5 and 3.6 in particular.

That is where I think the dev team has learned a lot and then I can say steps have been taken for me to like the game more.

Still I gotta fix my SD card issue and have it earn me to like it more than Melee or Smash 4.

 

[Smearglangelo]

Just out of curiosity, in your opinion, what areas of Project M could use a bit more polishing?

Is it more gameplay-related, maybe aesthetically-related?

Maybe both? Are there any specifics you could provide?

I'm not a big critic of Project M, but there are a few aesthetic things that I can think of off the top of my head that could use some improvement.

Some attack animations look kinda weird. When I played Project M the other day I noticed that Ness' baseball bat and yo-yo seem to expand in unusual ways during his Smash attacks.

Another thing that looks a little bit off is the alternate costumes. They're fantastic, but they don't look as smooth as the standard Brawl costumes.

 

[HalcyonDays]

This again?
Melee is not just Fox. Fox has gotten small nerfs but everything else is being changed to sound like Melee, feel like Melee, and match Melee.

Of course Melee isn't just Fox. But there's also no denying that Fox's playstyle represents a large part of the spirit of competitive Melee.

Nerfing him just goes to show that while PMDT respects Melee's playstyles with Melee characters, they aren't hesitant to adjust 15 years of meta and shift the balance in a way that it evens the playing ground. This also suggests that 'Melee-favoritism' isn't the end-all, be-all for their design philosophy, as shown by the many aesthetic nods to 64 as well.

The other Melee top tiers also aren't nearly as dominant in the new environment, but PMDT wanted to keep the respective design philosophies of their competitive styles intact, just like with Fox.

It's a lot like how Ryu, Chun-Li, etc tend to have the same exact (or at least very similar) fighting styles even through multiple game iterations, except applied to Melee's top.

Is this project's goal to be Melee + new characters or something different?

"Project M hopes to achieve a game similar to Super Smash Bros. Melee in many respects. It does not, however, intend to be a 1:1 Melee clone."

Taken from their website.

"In many respects" can be taken to mean anything from gameplay, to aesthetic preferences. There's probably a huge chance you won't like this piece of information, though, but it seems like this is their set philosophy for P:M.

If you're worried about Melee SFX and stages (they've shown a lot of love for 64 too, btw), those take about as much effort to replace yourself with whatever you like, as it does to put P:M on your SD card in the first place.

So I'll be blunt. The game is trying to be "like Melee."

In the sense that Street Fighter V is trying to be like Street Fighter IV.

A lot of the same old fan-favorite characters, fighting styles, stages and music, with some new balancing, characters, etc.

It's basically building a sequel to Melee. So if that's too much "like Melee" for you, then maybe P:M just won't be for you. There's nothing wrong with that, but keep in mind, this is the nature of a sequel that holds the same spirit of it's predecessor. They're going to be alike, but also different.

 

[TheComebackKid]

How could they not keep Falco's kick shine? That mess was cool.
And with the added hitstun from Brawl to PM, that would be almost like Sheik's Melee chain, minus the spamming it in all directions.

 

[666blaziken]

How could they not keep Falco's kick shine? That mess was cool.
And with the added hitstun from Brawl to PM, that would be almost like Sheik's Melee chain, minus the spamming it in all directions.

because falco's shine in melee is much better since it's jump cancellable, and making the brawl version jump cancellable would make falco broken because it's basically a really disjointed shine.

 

[Batousai]

As good of a mod as Project M is, it's just that: a mod.

The fans' opinions don't matter. It's forever going to be restricted by the fact that it's not official. It can never rise to the level of national, and international, fighting games. Period.

So, unfortunately, time put into Project M is time wasted, compared to Make, Sm4sh, and popular FGC games. It's time sunk into a game with nothing but limits on its future, doomed to never be what Melee is, or what Sm4sh could be.

That's the sad reality.

 

[MegaMissingno]

I love Project M, but the toxic community pushed me away. The Smash community in general is a toxic wasteland, but many of the followers of Project M are awful. I've seen countless comments and arguments started by a PM fan who trashes Brawl and Smash 4 and worships the feet of PM. It's all good that you don't like a particular Smash title, but what is so difficult about respecting the people who do?

I've seen just as many Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4 fans **** on PM and its players too. Hell, it's even going on right here in this very thread! Don't single us out as if other communities are any better about it, there's toxic players in every game.

 

[anjohns]

This will be helpful in convincing my Melee elitist and smash 4 elitist friends in picking up this game. Particularly the Melee elitists who state "it's just synthetic Melee"

I don't really see how this would sway anyone, all it says is "Hey Project M is a game just like Melee you should like it because it's a game.

 

[badangadang]

As good of a mod as Defense Of The Ancients is, it's just that: a mod.

The fans' opinions don't matter. It's forever going to be restricted by the fact that it's not official. It can never rise to the level of national, and international, MOBA games. Period.

So, unfortunately, time put into Defense Of The Ancients is time wasted, compared to Warcraft, League Of Legends, Starcraft and popular MOBA games. It's time sunk into a game with nothing but limits on its future, doomed to never be what Warcraft is, or what LoL could be.

That's the sad misunderstanding.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I've seen just as many Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4 fans **** on PM and its players too. Hell, it's even going on right here in this very thread! Don't single us out as if other communities are any better about it, there's toxic players in every game.

I am guessing you missed the part where I stated the Smash community in general is a toxic wasteland. I am only speaking off of my own experience, no need to become defensive.

 

[DahremRuhar]

So many "X group is more toxic than Y group" comments. Ya'll gotta get something straight: people are toxic. They suck. Get over it, and enjoy PM. There is a lot of love put into this game, and this article does a good job pointing that out. Thanks PMDT, you guys make me keep playing Smash.

I am guessing you missed the part where I stated the Smash community in general is a toxic wasteland. I am only speaking off of my own experience, no need to become defensive.

Your own experience doesn't matter sweetie. We all have different experiences; we are all assholes to someone whether we know it or not.

 

[Mr. Oshawott]

I love Project M, but the toxic community pushed me away. The Smash community in general is a toxic wasteland...

Your own experience doesn't matter sweetie. We all have different experiences; we are all ******** to someone whether we know it or not.

In other words, you're basically saying that we should just let the toxicity spread like it's a "normal" occurrence and not do anything to put an end to it?
No wonder why the Smash community is constantly being looked upon with scorn. Some people seem to think that they just can't live without instilling hate and consternation amongst the fan base.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

So many "X group is more toxic than Y group" comments. Ya'll gotta get something straight: people are toxic. They suck. Get over it, and enjoy PM. There is a lot of love put into this game, and this article does a good job pointing that out. Thanks PMDT, you guys make me keep playing Smash.



Your own experience doesn't matter sweetie. We all have different experiences; we are all ******** to someone whether we know it or not.

Yikes, I apologize, I didn't word my thoughts so properly. I never really attempted to insinuate that one group is more toxic than the other, I was only saying that I have personally seen the most hate from PM fans. I am fully aware of the hate each group dishes out to one another and that people see more hate from another group.

Seeing as how the competitive Smash community is so rude towards each other so often, I have been drifting away from the community as a whole. The main reasons I still come to Smashboards is to visit the Smash 4 Social Thread, get updates on character speculations, and read up on any new Bowser Jr. tips. I don't wish to be part of something that is accompanied with rude remarks and childish and immature snips at one another. That is my stance on it.

I go by Mr. KoopaTurtle, sweetie.

In other words, you're basically saying that we should just let the toxicity spread like it's a "normal" occurrence and not do anything to put an end it?
No wonder why the Smash community is constantly being looked upon with scorn. Some people seem to think that they just can't live without instilling hate and consternation amongst the fan base.

Not really what I was getting at, but okay.

 

[DahremRuhar]

In other words, you're basically saying that we should just let the toxicity spread like it's a "normal" occurrence and not do anything to put an end to it?
No wonder why the Smash community is constantly being looked upon with scorn. Some people seem to think that they just can't live without instilling hate and consternation amongst the fan base.

No, but instead of just complaining about I think we should all consciously go out of our way to be as inviting and friendly as we can. I'm serious. We also need to be better at letting others poke fun at our game of preference. Seriously, they all have some nonsense.The thing is that for a lot of us, part of the reason we all love Smash so much is that these games are far from perfect. These games are all jam-packed with silly nonsense that we all take more seriously than others. We get into big groups of people and compete to see who takes them most seriously, who is the best at manipulating this nonsense. This is a social community, and there is a point where we all have to learn to socialize in a way that is more mature (myself included). When I say that "people suck", I say that because it's true, and no matter where you go there are going to be ****ty people. However, sometimes if you look really hard at a piece of ****, you will find a piece of corn. We all need to be better at seeing the corn, and being the corn.

This community has always been an underdog, and always will be to an extent. Let's give people a reason to root for us.

 

[Mr. Oshawott]

@ DahremRuhar

Alright, fair enough. My apologies for the rushed accusation.

 

[DahremRuhar]

@ DahremRuhar

Alright, fair enough. My apologies for the rushed accusation.

Eh np, I can see where that idea would come across in that post.

 

[TheComebackKid]

because falco's shine in melee is much better since it's jump cancellable, and making the brawl version jump cancellable would make falco broken because it's basically a really disjointed shine.

Still, its cool, the fact he can just kick it out there and stall you, but I see the brokenness. I think it was mostly done to keep Falco from being a total clone.

 

[Batousai]

How...unique. Take my words and change little parts of it (i.e. twisting my words) to fit your purposes. *coughplagiarismcough*

Besides, DotA is a bit of an exception, since out came first, practically created the MOBA genre, and was made into an official, original release with the sequel. Project M looks like it'll NEVER get an official release, planning it in a completely different category from DotA.

Apples and oranges, buddy.

Try saying something original, accurate, and actually relevant. Then I'll be able to take you seriously.

 

[TheComebackKid]

How...unique. Take my words and change little parts of it (i.e. twisting my words) to fit your purposes. *coughplagiarismcough*

Besides, DotA is a bit of an exception, since out came first, practically created the MOBA genre, and was made into an official, original release with the sequel. Project M looks like it'll NEVER get an official release, planning it in a completely different category from DotA.

Apples and oranges, buddy.

Try saying something original, accurate, and actually relevant. Then I'll be able to take you seriously.

Wait, me?